How can I lose 3 battles WHILST I'm losing a battle?

Eddiemon

Spiderben69 wrote:

So I just played 15 mins of the current Patch LR, perfect example - Granted 1st 3 battles were pretty easy and I won a little bit of ISO but after that there were no "winnable" teams to fight: lowest offering without hitting Skip a load of times is a lv20 Patch, lv47 BWO & lv73 Thor for a reward of 23 points, so without buying boosts I have no chance of winning this whatsoever because by the time I've built up enough AP to do some moves, the Lv 73 Thor has already blasted away most of my team with just a couple of his own moves!
So if I don't use boosts because that is causing my own problem, am I better just to play the 3 easy battles and quit? Taking me back to my original query which is that it doesn't seem weighted to help the non maxed out teams!

If you have no chance of winning that then you need to learn to play better. Focus on red and purple matches and your black widow and Thor will own the AIs. Boosts are an irrelevant waste in that kind of battle.

Listen to your argument. By the time you have enough AP to do some moves the computer which doesn't have a strategy and matches almost at random has managed to use Thor's abilities a couple of times. That's plain bad.

DirigiblePilot

Spiderben69 wrote:

So I just played 15 mins of the current Patch LR, perfect example - Granted 1st 3 battles were pretty easy and I won a little bit of ISO but after that there were no "winnable" teams to fight: lowest offering without hitting Skip a load of times is a lv20 Patch, lv47 BWO & lv73 Thor for a reward of 23 points, so without buying boosts I have no chance of winning this whatsoever because by the time I've built up enough AP to do some moves, the Lv 73 Thor has already blasted away most of my team with just a couple of his own moves!
So if I don't use boosts because that is causing my own problem, am I better just to play the 3 easy battles and quit? Taking me back to my original query which is that it doesn't seem weighted to help the non maxed out teams!

Yeah, it is not necessary, just helpful to get to 100 points. As long as you make 50, you're ok. It reeeeealy is not supposed to be weighted to help the easier teams in LRs. Better teams are supposed to win these. But if you are asking about why you're getting matched with such strong teams, it's because you have a high MMR (match-making rating) so the game thinks you are better than you actually are. Using boosts has made it so that you get paired with much better people to fight.
You basically have two options:
1. Go to the prologue and win some rewards there. Based on your team, you are probably way past this though.
2. Enter a LR, and do nothing but win a battle with the weakest team possible (that can still win that battle) that you can muster. That is the team that will now show up when people see you in that LR. This is called tanking. It used to be much easier to do (you just had to lose a battle with that weak team) but the devs have made it less effective. You probably shouldn't use it to get into an easier match-making bracket than you are supposed to be in, but it's ok if you use it to get out of an incredibly high bracket.

Unknown

Spiderben69 wrote:

how does the AI choose my team for battle I don't play (and usually lose!)?

This has been fiddled with recently, but as far as I'm aware last team you won with is what other players see when attacking you, except for retaliations. Those see whatever you were using to beat them. You can choose teams (especially if going offline unshielded) for defensive purposes - Hulk, for instance, was just about designed for the purpose - but I wouldn't worry about that right now. Unfortunately, anything under level 85 2* is an easy target by most people's standards.

Your roster's not in terrible shape, you probably just need to focus on leveling the 2*s until they look a bit more like everyone else's so you're less of a soft target. Even if you have 13/13 covers, 3*s are mostly just bad at that low a level. They cap at 141 and their progression's stretched out accordingly. They don't match up stat-wise to maxed 2*s until about 100, which is a good way off, yet.

Your match-making rank is supposed to correct itself over time; as WorstAvenger said, you're in trouble because all the boosting has made the game decide you can defeat higher leveled teams than you really want to be dealing with. Losing is the simple way to change it, and defensive losses count, so enter as many events as possible, get a few points, and just leave your team there for people to beat on. If you're desperate to hurry it along, you could accept matches you know you won't win and immediately retreat. You'll just lose a bit of health instead of 3 health packs.

I regularly experience the same "losing multiple battle whilst playing a battle" scenario in the regular tournaments also and still don't really understand how I can ensure that I am placed against similar level teams - I find that I'm regularly being given teams to fight that are way superior to mine i.e. 3 x level 85+ for a reward of only 22 or so points, yet I can be beaten in a battle I don't play and lose 38 points in a single battle.

We've all come out of a +17 win to a -156 notification at one point or another. It's incredibly frustrating, and I'm afraid that's where the "determination" comes in. You can write placing in that tournament off (you don't need to do well in all of them), or you can shake it off and get the points back. Underhanded Europeans such as myself can play while honest, right-thinking American folk are asleep, because the game's a bit less active, but it's never dead that I've seen, and that's hardly a healthy solution if you are an honest, right-thinking American, in any case. If it's any consolation, we need to get up at 04:00 to place in PvE. Mostly, if it's driving you nuts, I'd say just try to remember why you were playing a game in the first place and take a break if it's no longer entertainment.

Eddiemon

Focusing on LR with a weak team is a bad idea, especially expecting to be competitive.

It is a global bracket, so your team is up against everyone. If you don't have a top 5000 team but you want to place top 10 that probably isn't happening. Other competitions where there are 200 player brackets leave more room for overachieving.

Less people are playing. It's only people who join in a 90 minute period as opposed to 48 hours or more for other competitions. This means you get seen a lot more by active players as a target. And as a subpar team you are a preferred target.

There are changes coming to help a little. A charge to skip opponents is in the pipeline, which means players won't be able to skip targets s often. This should lead to you showing up less often as a target and getting attacked as often. But I don't think it is enough to make a weak team LR competitive. Lightning rounds are the hardest competition type to win by their very nature.

bahamut685

I lost SIX immediately after winning one... moved up into 7th for my win, and before I could click the shield, dropped into the 80s with a -186 haul.
Mind you, that was in No Holds Barred.

Unknown

Although defense is more possible than it was before, there's still very little you can do deter aggression when your team is worth 35 points to an attacker, especially if your roster is weak yours appears to be.

The point is that you're supposed to lose the rating you gain by grinding relatively quickly. If there's some artificial limit like 'can only be attacked once every 10 minutes' then the person who wins is going to always be the guy who can play the most.

The only real weakness of the system right now is that you can grind to a high rating at like 3am and then shield up, but at least this usually forces you to use an 8h if not a 24h shield which is costly. Also, as this strategy becomes more effective more people will do it too, which naturally prevents this strategy from being effective since if you got 10 guys all trying the same thing, they'd end up bringing each other's rating down.

Your peak is not the same as your strength. Your strength is more like what your score will settle after you go to sleep and wake up. Your peak is whatever the highest score you can achieve. If you want to preserve your peak score, which is considerably higher than your actual strength, you got to use shields. You get 100 HP for placing top 45, so if you need the covers provided there, using a 3 hour shield costs you no HP overall and nets you a 3* cover (or more).

Unknown

No comment other than to say I love the word whilst.

Moral

People skip mean looking opponents until they find someone underpowered for what they can see. Once you get over 350 ranking, it seems you are only one of a few dozen people can see in your level range.

Also, 3* characters may be able to level 55 additional levels, but are powered about 15 levels below a comparable 2* character in terms of HP and damage from matches. Using level 40ish 3* characters against 1* maxed is a losing proposition. IM 35, storm and black widow maxed should be giving you fits because at same thevel they are far more powerful.

There's a reason higher stars are cheaper to train at the same level.

Unknown

Moral wrote:

People skip mean looking opponents until they find someone underpowered for what they can see. Once you get over 350 ranking, it seems you are only one of a few dozen people can see in your level range.

Also, 3* characters may be able to level 55 additional levels, but are powered about 15 levels below a comparable 2* character in terms of HP and damage from matches. Using level 40ish 3* characters against 1* maxed is a losing proposition. IM 35, storm and black widow maxed should be giving you fits because at same thevel they are far more powerful.

There's a reason higher stars are cheaper to train at the same level.

Black is Hulk's weakest color (in tile strength), and it is also the weakest color for Moonstone. It takes exactly level 99 for Hulk to surpass a level 85 Moonstone in matching black, so yeah, 15 levels weaker is about right.

Unknown

You suck -> you rating suffer. What's unfair in that? But you suggest that with your mid-tier team you somehow should be able to reach high position. Now THAT would be unfair.

Moral

rowaasr13 wrote:

You suck -> you rating suffer. What's unfair in that? But you suggest that with your mid-tier team you somehow should be able to reach high position. Now THAT would be unfair.

He's not being thrown in with bugpop or thewreck here. His team is struggling because he made the assumption more stars is better than fewer.

If his 3* characters have fewer than 9 covers that makes it even worse.

Unknown

aboudreau wrote:

Because you can beat up on the seed teams to get up to the 250 iso bonus in each round.
So you get say 5 matches: Approx 110 iso per + the 25 bonus for 140 iso + the 50 silver token for 100 iso + the 250 iso at 100 + at lest 70 iso for participating.
Thats 1110 iso on average before you start battling real teams.

Ah, I thought there is more to call it harversting. <1k iso and only if you arrive the very second it opens is not some bonanza in my book.
I recall good ol' times I could actually win real matches in LR up to some 150 pts in short time -- entering at whatever point. Now to look at 3x8k health to beat down even if not facing stunlock, 5xanger and other goodies and even questionable things like IM40 is formidable due to insane boost.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

aboudreau wrote:

Because you can beat up on the seed teams to get up to the 250 iso bonus in each round.
So you get say 5 matches: Approx 110 iso per + the 25 bonus for 140 iso + the 50 silver token for 100 iso + the 250 iso at 100 + at lest 70 iso for participating.
Thats 1110 iso on average before you start battling real teams.

Ah, I thought there is more to call it harversting. <1k iso and only if you arrive the very second it opens is not some bonanza in my book.
I recall good ol' times I could actually win real matches in LR up to some 150 pts in short time -- entering at whatever point. Now to look at 3x8k health to beat down even if not facing stunlock, 5xanger and other goodies and even questionable things like IM40 is formidable due to insane boost.

Sometimes you can repeatedly beat up seed teams for a ridiculously long time to keep getting match reward ISO, others I've gotten on with, like, 1hr 29 to go and B@C0N_M@G1C has left the building. I assume it's something to do with whether anyone else has registered within your persistent MMR range, or maybe they're rationing them, or it's to do with phases of the moon, who knows? You do also sometimes see people with low-level featured characters or loaners and unbuffed 2*s, even in this new one, and those go quicker than regular matches. I'd guess it works best off-peak, but it's only a guess.

Unknown

Veracity wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

aboudreau wrote:

Because you can beat up on the seed teams to get up to the 250 iso bonus in each round.
So you get say 5 matches: Approx 110 iso per + the 25 bonus for 140 iso + the 50 silver token for 100 iso + the 250 iso at 100 + at lest 70 iso for participating.
Thats 1110 iso on average before you start battling real teams.

Ah, I thought there is more to call it harversting. <1k iso and only if you arrive the very second it opens is not some bonanza in my book.
I recall good ol' times I could actually win real matches in LR up to some 150 pts in short time -- entering at whatever point. Now to look at 3x8k health to beat down even if not facing stunlock, 5xanger and other goodies and even questionable things like IM40 is formidable due to insane boost.

Sometimes you can repeatedly beat up seed teams for a ridiculously long time to keep getting match reward ISO, others I've gotten on with, like, 1hr 29 to go and B@C0N_M@G1C has left the building. I assume it's something to do with whether anyone else has registered within your persistent MMR range, or maybe they're rationing them, or it's to do with phases of the moon, who knows? You do also sometimes see people with low-level featured characters or loaners and unbuffed 2*s, even in this new one, and those go quicker than regular matches. I'd guess it works best off-peak, but it's only a guess.

Just tried it for curiosity on the most recent hulk event: the second the event card appeared -- no seed teams. Two teams with ~40/50/85, the rest the usual 3x100+. So not only must you be there in first seconds, even then the chance is mixed.

BTW my bet goes to the phase of the moon . LRs used to be at least good for tanking, now just a plainf stay-away zone mostly. (Unless you have that 3x100+ team that is or maybe it looks different for lower MMR tiers?)

Unknown

I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but leveling up isn't going to change anything.

Last night I was sitting at 22 in a Lightning Round with 6 minutes left. I figured I should do one more fight just to secure a spot in the top 25 and...well, you all see where this is going.

2 attacks, -92, congrats you win 500 ISO!

Unknown

Spiderben69 wrote:

Hi Veracity, thanks for your response.
My normal team changes between, as currently: Wolverine Astonishing lv59, Storm Classic lv57, Thor lv54, BW original lv53, Punisher lv47, Spider-Man lv 46 depending on who I'm battling or who I have injured/downed at the time..... one question, how does the AI choose my team for battle I don't play (and usually lose!)?

I did not know that LR's are unbracketed, in fact I didn't really understand the bracketing anyway hence my original posting. It makes sense what you say about LR's and I agree, I don't really like the format but will use it as you suggest to get "freebies". I regularly experience the same "losing multiple battle whilst playing a battle" scenario in the regular tournaments also and still don't really understand how I can ensure that I am placed against similar level teams - I find that I'm regularly being given teams to fight that are way superior to mine i.e. 3 x level 85+ for a reward of only 22 or so points, yet I can be beaten in a battle I don't play and lose 38 points in a single battle.

When you complete the first battle in a tournament, you're usually placed in a "bracket" of players at the time, usually 200, 500, or 1000 big. (So which bracket you join depends solely on when you played your first match) While you may fight with all other players during the tourney, you're only competing with players in your own bracket for the placement rewards, for example 1 3*** cover for placing in the top 45 out of the 500 in your bracket. The bottom placement prize basically tells you how big the bracket is, for example if the lowest prize is for rank 401-500, then the bracket size is 500 people.

Lightning rounds tho, are completely unbracketed. So everyone is competing against everyone else for the limited placement rewards and competition becomes much fiercer. It may be the same 10 or 15 good prizes, but now the competitor pool is 10x or 20x or 50x as large. Needless to say competition in LRs tend to be VERY intense.

Regarding your MMR, your hidden rating goes up with battles you win and goes down when you lose. So if you're always picking the weakest targets or spending on boosts to keep on winning, your MMR will just keep going up and you'll be matched with harder and harder opponents, those who also have won as much as you (and probably with much stronger teams who didn't use boosts to get there). As you get hit by attacks and lose tho your MMR should come down, so eventually you're down to around where your rooster strength should be at.

Unknown

And oh, you do have a say on how often you get attacked. For example when I see teams with a high level Hulk or IM40 I always consider skipping because even if I can win, they have enough hp to make it take a very long time (my own team might lose multiple times in the time it takes me to beat them once), or they can grind down some of my team's hp before they lose and force me to burn medpacks.

C. Magneto and GSBW tho are like on the opposite end of the spectrum, superb chars on offense but hardly a threat on defense because the AI doesnt know how to properly use their blue/purple skills.

So its important to pick your team composition not only for how effective they are on the offense, but also what they can do on defense.

Walkyourpath wrote an excellent analysis of tournament strategies viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2879&hilit=anatomy+of+a+tourney

Unknown

_fulu_ wrote:

No comment other than to say I love the word whilst.

I think only europeans use the word "whilst" My brother picked it up from studying there and now he has a fake english accent that wavers in and out and he just sounds ridiculous when he's in public or talking to people older than him. Another thing he picked up is, "I can't be bothered."

Spiderben69

Thanks to all for the posts, especially Eidolone for your last 2 which rather summed everything else up for me in terminology that I could understand without learning all the TLAs!

I particularly enjoyed the various "well sounds like you're actually just not very good at the game" comments.... ha ha, probably spot on!

Sounds like a combination of a not particularly great MMR model in the game and a situation of my own making.... now to sit back and lose a load in order to try and get myself back into a more sensible bracket.
Cheers!

Spiderben69

Go figure...... so I just played the whole 90 mins of the Punisher Lightning Round with Punisher lv52 and then weak team-mates Captain America lv37 & Iron Man 40 lv 32 expecting to lose loads but to take it on the chin..... I didn't use a single boost and only burned through 3 or so med packs, I won some, I lost some, I got beaten in battles WHILST I was playing battles.....

And I finished in the top 50 and won me 2 Heroic tokens and 500 ISO! plus earned about 3500 along the way! I am officially none the wiser as to how this thing works out the matching but I was presented with only 1 100+ team to fight!

Maybe I'm getting better at the game, more likely it's just a good time of day in Europe with the US all tucked tucked up in bed!