Skip Tax - There Shouldn't Be One (Right Now)

Bacon Pants

Has it been confirmed how the skip tax will be implemented? I would prefer not to see a skip tax on Retaliation Opponents. I always skip them as I am tired of the opponent retaliating against me after I have done so. I learned that one pretty quickly and have skipped those opponents every time.

Twysta

Typhon He locked it because he doesn't want multiple threads on the same topic and directed them here already.

TBH after reading a whole bunch of your posts, maybe you should think about taking a timeout before coming back and posting something.

Twysta

Bacon Pants wrote:

Has it been confirmed how the skip tax will be implemented? I would prefer not to see a skip tax on Retaliation Opponents. I always skip them as I am tired of the opponent retaliating against me after I have done so. I learned that one pretty quickly and have skipped those opponents every time.

I really hope they change their minds on it and instead maybe give bonus modifiers to score/iso with each successive win without skipping.
The tax would not be popular at all.

Unknown

Twysta wrote:

Typhon He locked it because he doesn't want multiple threads on the same topic and directed them here already.

TBH after reading a whole bunch of your posts, maybe you should think about taking a timeout before coming back and posting something.

Yea you're right. I got attention deficit, side effect being that I get mad about little things. Deep breaths...
Edit: Ice just said the next update would have no respec, after which he complained, albeit jokingly, about his 5/3/5 Thor!! Hold me back twysta!!!

Unknown

Typhon13 wrote:

Twysta wrote:

Typhon He locked it because he doesn't want multiple threads on the same topic and directed them here already.

TBH after reading a whole bunch of your posts, maybe you should think about taking a timeout before coming back and posting something.

Yea you're right. I got attention deficit, side effect being that I get mad about little things. Deep breaths...

You have every right to be angry you spent money. Don't let him dictate how you should feel.

IceIX

justaplayer wrote:

You have every right to be angry you spent money. Don't let him dictate how you should feel.

Agreed that you should be able to express yourself as needed. But to do so in a belligerent manner and with somewhat loaded questions means that you're less likely to receive an answer. No one wants to step on a land mine. It's even worse when you can *see* that land mine. It's much easier to answer a question or comment when it's delivered in a calm, reasoned form.

Unknown

justaplayer wrote:

Typhon13 wrote:

Twysta wrote:

Typhon He locked it because he doesn't want multiple threads on the same topic and directed them here already.

TBH after reading a whole bunch of your posts, maybe you should think about taking a timeout before coming back and posting something.

Yea you're right. I got attention deficit, side effect being that I get mad about little things. Deep breaths...

You have every right to be angry you spent money. Don't let him dictate how you should feel.

No he's right, I get like this a lot. I'm not mad about the money, I use iTunes cards, I'm mad about the fact that we get no respect from the devs, despite the fact that we essentially write their pay checks.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

justaplayer wrote:

You have every right to be angry you spent money. Don't let him dictate how you should feel.

Agreed that you should be able to express yourself as needed. But to do so in a belligerent manner and with somewhat loaded questions means that you're less likely to receive an answer. No one wants to step on a land mine. It's even worse when you can *see* that land mine. It's much easier to answer a question or comment when it's delivered in a calm, reasoned form.

Questions and complaints have been ignored for over a week with no communication people tend to get annoyed when they have spent money.

Eddiemon

Twysta wrote:

Bacon Pants wrote:

Has it been confirmed how the skip tax will be implemented? I would prefer not to see a skip tax on Retaliation Opponents. I always skip them as I am tired of the opponent retaliating against me after I have done so. I learned that one pretty quickly and have skipped those opponents every time.

I really hope they change their minds on it and instead maybe give bonus modifiers to score/iso with each successive win without skipping.
The tax would not be popular at all.

But without the tax people will just skip challenging fights because they are not giving anything up.

It is precisely the upset you define here. If you tell a person you will fine them $30 if they go home early, they are less likely to go home than if you tell them you will give them $30 if they stay late. People place more value on the $30 they have in their hand than they do on the $30 they could get even though they are exactly the same amount of currency.

And so handing you an extra 30 ISO when you win a match and then fining you 10 ISO each skip is more motivating than offering you an extra 30 ISO if you don't skip. Plus once you skip and break the chain in your model you can skip infinite times.

The problem with being able to skip and pick your battles is it makes it near impossible to create a meaningful rating system, as everyone ends up with a ridiculously high win ratio because they only target softer targets or teams more vulnerable to their team composition.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

Twysta wrote:

Bacon Pants wrote:

Has it been confirmed how the skip tax will be implemented? I would prefer not to see a skip tax on Retaliation Opponents. I always skip them as I am tired of the opponent retaliating against me after I have done so. I learned that one pretty quickly and have skipped those opponents every time.

I really hope they change their minds on it and instead maybe give bonus modifiers to score/iso with each successive win without skipping.
The tax would not be popular at all.

But without the tax people will just skip challenging fights because they are not giving anything up.

It is precisely the upset you define here. If you tell a person you will fine them $30 if they go home early, they are less likely to go home than if you tell them you will give them $30 if they stay late. People place more value on the $30 they have in their hand than they do on the $30 they could get even though they are exactly the same amount of currency.

And so handing you an extra 30 ISO when you win a match and then fining you 10 ISO each skip is more motivating than offering you an extra 30 ISO if you don't skip. Plus once you skip and break the chain in your model you can skip infinite times.

The problem with being able to skip and pick your battles is it makes it near impossible to create a meaningful rating system, as everyone ends up with a ridiculously high win ratio because they only target softer targets or teams more vulnerable to their team composition.

The matchmaking is broken. I constantly get opponents 20-30 levels over me or more

IceIX

As for your questions Typhon:
We implemented server side fixes to scaling that help out for future events and for those people that had not yet begun Heroic 4. The change isn't retroactive and can't be set as such without causing issues with the running of the Event. It wasn't in Patch Notes because it's not something that affects any real portion of the user base. We make server side changes tweaking PVP matchmaking and such constantly as we find better ways of matching people and closing loopholes that enable the system to be warped. If we set them in Patch Notes, you'd see a line nearly every day stating "Tweaked matchmaking algorithm", which isn't useful to anyone.

I'm not so sure that we broke the game in any permanent way, so I'm not sure that there's anything to quickly fix or it's all gone. The biggies lately were the Thor/Wolverine changes, Boost changes, and the scaling in PVE. Thor/Wolverine wasn't a mistake and we're seeing very good fallout from it in regards to roster diversity and player engagement. Boost changes were explained in the announcement thread and we've acknowledged that there were communication issues there. Scaling in PVE has also been acknowledged in multiple threads and will be getting better moving forward, including changes already made.

NorthernPolarity

IceIX wrote:

As for your questions Typhon:
We implemented server side fixes to scaling that help out for future events and for those people that had not yet begun Heroic 4. The change isn't retroactive and can't be set as such without causing issues with the running of the Event. It wasn't in Patch Notes because it's not something that affects any real portion of the user base. We make server side changes tweaking PVP matchmaking and such constantly as we find better ways of matching people and closing loopholes that enable the system to be warped. If we set them in Patch Notes, you'd see a line nearly every day stating "Tweaked matchmaking algorithm", which isn't useful to anyone.

I'm not so sure that we broke the game in any permanent way, so I'm not sure that there's anything to quickly fix or it's all gone. The biggies lately were the Thor/Wolverine changes, Boost changes, and the scaling in PVE. Thor/Wolverine wasn't a mistake and we're seeing very good fallout from it in regards to roster diversity and player engagement. Boost changes were explained in the announcement thread and we've acknowledged that there were communication issues there. Scaling in PVE has also been acknowledged in multiple threads and will be getting better moving forward, including changes already made.

Any sneak peaks at the changes that have been made to PvE scaling? Is it similar to the scaling currently in place where all events scale as you win matches, or has it been tweaked such that only the mission that you beat increases in difficulty?

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

Twysta wrote:

Bacon Pants wrote:

Has it been confirmed how the skip tax will be implemented? I would prefer not to see a skip tax on Retaliation Opponents. I always skip them as I am tired of the opponent retaliating against me after I have done so. I learned that one pretty quickly and have skipped those opponents every time.

I really hope they change their minds on it and instead maybe give bonus modifiers to score/iso with each successive win without skipping.
The tax would not be popular at all.

But without the tax people will just skip challenging fights because they are not giving anything up.

It is precisely the upset you define here. If you tell a person you will fine them $30 if they go home early, they are less likely to go home than if you tell them you will give them $30 if they stay late. People place more value on the $30 they have in their hand than they do on the $30 they could get even though they are exactly the same amount of currency.

And so handing you an extra 30 ISO when you win a match and then fining you 10 ISO each skip is more motivating than offering you an extra 30 ISO if you don't skip. Plus once you skip and break the chain in your model you can skip infinite times.

The problem with being able to skip and pick your battles is it makes it near impossible to create a meaningful rating system, as everyone ends up with a ridiculously high win ratio because they only target softer targets or teams more vulnerable to their team composition.

But at the same time, taking the ISO we already have creates a negative feeling in the players. Awarding extra creates a positive one. It's the same amount either way, for sure, but if this game only wants to give us sticks, we're free to find one that's offering carrots instead.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

As for your questions Typhon:
We implemented server side fixes to scaling that help out for future events and for those people that had not yet begun Heroic 4. The change isn't retroactive and can't be set as such without causing issues with the running of the Event. It wasn't in Patch Notes because it's not something that affects any real portion of the user base. We make server side changes tweaking PVP matchmaking and such constantly as we find better ways of matching people and closing loopholes that enable the system to be warped. If we set them in Patch Notes, you'd see a line nearly every day stating "Tweaked matchmaking algorithm", which isn't useful to anyone.

I'm not so sure that we broke the game in any permanent way, so I'm not sure that there's anything to quickly fix or it's all gone. The biggies lately were the Thor/Wolverine changes, Boost changes, and the scaling in PVE. Thor/Wolverine wasn't a mistake and we're seeing very good fallout from it in regards to roster diversity and player engagement. Boost changes were explained in the announcement thread and we've acknowledged that there were communication issues there. Scaling in PVE has also been acknowledged in multiple threads and will be getting better moving forward, including changes already made.

Now that I've calmed down a bit, thank you. I didn't mean the game was broken permanently, I just meant it was broken the way it is now. On the thorverine nerf we're gonna have to agree to disagree because that can go on forever. On the boosts, pve scaling should befixed before the boosts prices go to hp, which is one thing I think could have been rolled back fast. The fact that we weren't notified doesn't change that. Boosting iso rewards could be a quick fix too. Ill agree scaling will take longer. Thanks for being patient with a teenage hothead like myself. Of course ill deny ever saying that

Bacon Pants

Eddiemon wrote:

But without the tax people will just skip challenging fights because they are not giving anything up.

It is precisely the upset you define here. If you tell a person you will fine them $30 if they go home early, they are less likely to go home than if you tell them you will give them $30 if they stay late. People place more value on the $30 they have in their hand than they do on the $30 they could get even though they are exactly the same amount of currency.

And so handing you an extra 30 ISO when you win a match and then fining you 10 ISO each skip is more motivating than offering you an extra 30 ISO if you don't skip. Plus once you skip and break the chain in your model you can skip infinite times.

The problem with being able to skip and pick your battles is it makes it near impossible to create a meaningful rating system, as everyone ends up with a ridiculously high win ratio because they only target softer targets or teams more vulnerable to their team composition.

Other than the retaliation fights, I usually skip opponents with low point rewards. I try to consistently fight opponents that award 20 or more points.

Twysta

Typhon13 wrote:

Edit: Ice just said the next update would have no respec, after which he complained, albeit jokingly, about his 5/3/5 Thor!! Hold me back twysta!!!

Breathe buddy, breathe.

Eddiemon

justaplayer wrote:

The matchmaking is broken. I constantly get opponents 20-30 levels over me or more

Yes the matchmaking is broken. Because you get to pick and choose your opponents it has no idea how good an opponent it should be targeting you with. How is it meant to select adequate opponents for you when it has no information on your limits?

It's always the same circular logic.
A: Matchmake me correctly before implementing low skipping.
B: But they cannot get a correct rating for you when you skip anything that doesn't appeal to you. You get an artificially high win rate when you can select your opponents and so get matched higher. They need to force you into fights so they can rate you correctly.
A: They can force me into fights once they have made matches correctly.
B: But they cannot until they have the correct performance data that they cannot get from selective matches
A: Yeah but they need to matchmake me correctly first.

Ad infinitum. You cannot be matched until you can be rated correctly. You cannot be rated correctly if you get to pick your matches. But you won't give up picking your matches until you are matched correctly.

There is only one way to break that cycle and it isn't hoping that the correct matchmaking data magically appears.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

justaplayer wrote:

The matchmaking is broken. I constantly get opponents 20-30 levels over me or more

Yes the matchmaking is broken. Because you get to pick and choose your opponents it has no idea how good an opponent it should be targeting you with. How is it meant to select adequate opponents for you when it has no information on your limits?

It's always the same circular logic.
A: Matchmake me correctly before implementing low skipping.
B: But they cannot get a correct rating for you when you skip anything that doesn't appeal to you. You get an artificially high win rate when you can select your opponents and so get matched higher. They need to force you into fights so they can rate you correctly.
A: They can force me into fights once they have made matches correctly.
B: But they cannot until they have the correct performance data that they cannot get from selective matches
A: Yeah but they need to matchmake me correctly first.

Ad infinitum. You cannot be matched until you can be rated correctly. You cannot be rated correctly if you get to pick your matches. But you won't give up picking your matches until you are matched correctly.

There is only one way to break that cycle and it isn't hoping that the correct matchmaking data magically appears.

I've watched your trolling comments in other threads you really aren't worth dealing with.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

justaplayer wrote:

The matchmaking is broken. I constantly get opponents 20-30 levels over me or more

Yes the matchmaking is broken. Because you get to pick and choose your opponents it has no idea how good an opponent it should be targeting you with. How is it meant to select adequate opponents for you when it has no information on your limits?

It's always the same circular logic.
A: Matchmake me correctly before implementing low skipping.
B: But they cannot get a correct rating for you when you skip anything that doesn't appeal to you. You get an artificially high win rate when you can select your opponents and so get matched higher. They need to force you into fights so they can rate you correctly.
A: They can force me into fights once they have made matches correctly.
B: But they cannot until they have the correct performance data that they cannot get from selective matches
A: Yeah but they need to matchmake me correctly first.

Ad infinitum. You cannot be matched until you can be rated correctly. You cannot be rated correctly if you get to pick your matches. But you won't give up picking your matches until you are matched correctly.

There is only one way to break that cycle and it isn't hoping that the correct matchmaking data magically appears.

I can't agree with you more, and that's why they should pair you up with someone that matches the sum of the levels of your current 3 covers. Might even make me use that level 40 BW again.

Eddiemon

RockMonster wrote:

But at the same time, taking the ISO we already have creates a negative feeling in the players. Awarding extra creates a positive one. It's the same amount either way, for sure, but if this game only wants to give us sticks, we're free to find one that's offering carrots instead.

Awarding you extra also means you can skip indefinitely, leading to the same matchmaking issues that currently plague the system. Given the choice between a 30 ISO boost and 20 Event points you are never taking the 30 ISO bonus, you will keep skipping fights till you get the target you want. YOu only take the bonus when the next target is one you want anyway.

This leaves us exactly where we are right now in terms of matchmaking, except you may get more ISO sometimes.