Hopefully in time for the character survey - An MPQ Census

Unknown

The diversification Marvel has been doing has put me (black guy) in a weird place. I'm going to go left to go right so bare with me.

When gay marriage was legalized, one of my favorite comic strips - Cyanide & Happiness did a strip about it. The overall punchline, it isn't called gay marriage anymore, its just marriage.

That's how I view this, when we get to the point where it isn't "Capn Murica is black" and its "Cap'n Murica isn't Steve Rogers", then I'll be happy. My...concern/issue with it, it feels like a combination of forced and gimmick, like "Buy my comic, Thor is a woman now!", as deep down I know that at some point, somehow, Steve rogers WILL be Cap'n Murica again, Thor WILL get mjolnir back, Peter Parker will make another deal with Mephisto, etc and somehow we'll end up right back where we started.

I'd rather instead of altering characters to force it on to us, create new characters of value you push them. I was fine with the new Nick Fury, sure getting him to look like sam Jack was a soap opera, but they at least tried to sell us something, and it had more to do with Sam Jack than making Fury black. I was just waiting for a quip about getting these hydra men off his plane...

But I mean for instance, they 'killed' Wolverine. Instead of making an old man Logan, leave him dead. Replace the violent anti-hero who can survive hell with a black guy who is an anti-hero who can survive hell, is a mutant, and spam him in everything (Cross Cage w/ Deadpool).

As for the game, I'm 100% good with where it racial and genderly is. I can field an all black team between Falcon/Fury/Cage/Blade/Black Panther as well as several iterations of Storm - all pretty strong characters at that. Females? I'm OK with the ratio of them as well. I don't want them just adding characters for a quota purpose. I don't want Marrow because they are out of ideas. Gwen Spiderwoman is popular right now, I'm cool with that as the 4* (though it should be the black and mirror armor spiderman muahaha), it wouldn't be forced, but don't do it just to add more women. I saw discussion about 'female villains', well frankly the game is lacking in villains PERIOD. If anything I'd prefer there was a push on those, Sentinel, Silver Samurai, (can't say Carnage anymore yay) Blob, Sabertooth, Polaris, Abomination, etc.

Not trying to stir anything, its just that the 'racial turnover' has actually been bothering me and I'm part of the group they are...appeasing if you will. I'd rather my son like Black Panther or Cage, then Captain America (because of race).
- Unreall

Unknown

Unreallystic wrote:

The diversification Marvel has been doing has put me (black guy) in a weird place. I'm going to go left to go right so bare with me.

When gay marriage was legalized, one of my favorite comic strips - Cyanide & Happiness did a strip about it. The overall punchline, it isn't called gay marriage anymore, its just marriage.

That's how I view this, when we get to the point where it isn't "Capn Murica is black" and its "Cap'n Murica isn't Steve Rogers", then I'll be happy. My...concern/issue with it, it feels like a combination of forced and gimmick, like "Buy my comic, Thor is a woman now!", as deep down I know that at some point, somehow, Steve rogers WILL be Cap'n Murica again, Thor WILL get mjolnir back, Peter Parker will make another deal with Mephisto, etc and somehow we'll end up right back where we started.

I'd rather instead of altering characters to force it on to us, create new characters of value you push them. I was fine with the new Nick Fury, sure getting him to look like sam Jack was a soap opera, but they at least tried to sell us something, and it had more to do with Sam Jack than making Fury black. I was just waiting for a quip about getting these hydra men off his plane...

But I mean for instance, they 'killed' Wolverine. Instead of making an old man Logan, leave him dead. Replace the violent anti-hero who can survive hell with a black guy who is an anti-hero who can survive hell, is a mutant, and spam him in everything (Cross Cage w/ Deadpool).

As for the game, I'm 100% good with where it racial and genderly is.

"Capn Murica is black"

considering parts of america can't even accept their president is black, I don't know what to tell you.

"100% good with where it racial and genderly is." Nah....

Buret0

Unreallystic wrote:

As for the game, I'm 100% good with where it racial and genderly is. I can field an all black team between Falcon/Fury/Cage/Blade/Black Panther as well as several iterations of Storm - all pretty strong characters at that.

I don't see race in this game, but I do see color.

If someone were to ask me to associate color with Falcon, I would tell them Falcon is yellow. It didn't even occur to me that Falcon was a black man. Being a black man is part of his story, and MPQ isn't here to tell a story, so it doesn't matter. To me, Falcon will always be yellow, because that's what I'm chasing when he's on my team. By that same token, Storm is a proud black woman, except when she is a proud blue woman.

So long as you have useful, powerful, and interesting abilities, I don't care about your story.

TxMoose

Buret0 wrote:

Unreallystic wrote:

As for the game, I'm 100% good with where it racial and genderly is. I can field an all black team between Falcon/Fury/Cage/Blade/Black Panther as well as several iterations of Storm - all pretty strong characters at that.

I don't see race in this game, but I do see color.

If someone were to ask me to associate color with Falcon, I would tell them Falcon is yellow. It didn't even occur to me that Falcon was a black man. Being a black man is part of his story, and MPQ isn't here to tell a story, so it doesn't matter. To me, Falcon will always be yellow, because that's what I'm chasing when he's on my team. By that same token, Storm is a proud black woman, except when she is a proud blue woman.

So long as you have useful, powerful, and interesting abilities, I don't care about your story.

and fist is a purple people eater...

Lidolas

There's been some great discussion on this thread. I don't think anyone is 'right' or 'wrong'. I agree with a lot of what everyone has said.

My $0.02 on race and comics.

I grew up in a small Western suburban town that was 95% white. And by luck, chance, fate, or God's will, I've ended up back in the same town raising my three kids. I love the town, but I do wish there was more diversity. I remember when I was 7-8, a friend started arguing with one of the few black kids in the town. To this day, I still remember my friend saying "At least my skin isn't the color of poop" Even at 7-8 years old, and with very limited exposure to 'race' that insult didn't sit well with me. I hope I can help my kids be more adept and understanding of cultural differences and open-minded when interacting with other 'races' ( I hate even using the term race, we are all part of the human race....)

I think comics can be a big part of that. Marvel has come out with some great kids books that go along with comics, cartoons and the movies. One of their favorites is a short Guardians of the Galaxy book. What better way to show kids that skin color doesn't matter than to make heroes out of aliens with green skin, fur or bark?

Unknown

Buret0 wrote:

Unreallystic wrote:

As for the game, I'm 100% good with where it racial and genderly is. I can field an all black team between Falcon/Fury/Cage/Blade/Black Panther as well as several iterations of Storm - all pretty strong characters at that.

I don't see race in this game, but I do see color.

If someone were to ask me to associate color with Falcon, I would tell them Falcon is yellow. It didn't even occur to me that Falcon was a black man. Being a black man is part of his story, and MPQ isn't here to tell a story, so it doesn't matter. To me, Falcon will always be yellow, because that's what I'm chasing when he's on my team. By that same token, Storm is a proud black woman, except when she is a proud blue woman.

So long as you have useful, powerful, and interesting abilities, I don't care about your story.

Um....what?

Lidolas wrote:

( I hate even using the term race, we are all part of the human race....)
kids that skin color doesn't matter

sigh....

Malcrof

Unreallystic wrote:

Thor is a woman now!",

If you actually read the comics, so many people and beings have been Thor, this was just another step on the path. Thor will NOT be coming back as we know him, he is back to just being Odinson, the title of Thor (regardless of what the movie said) belongs to whoever holds the hammer, be it Beta Ray Thor, Frog Thor, or the current Jane Foster Thor.

This isn't diversity for diversity's sake, this seems to have been planned out years in advance.

Really nothing else to add to the actual conversation, except this, i would prefer new unique heroes over retcons, Thor may be the only exception.. because in the 2 cases where the one other than Odinson was wielding Mjolnir was truly worthy, Odin made them their own weapons (Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike). Odinson knows who has the hammer (she whooped him, it was spectacular) and will not take it from her.

So for Odinson to come back, and Jane to keep going would require making another weapon, which after Thunderstrike, it may not be possible.

/end geek rant

Nooneelsesname

Well, that escalated... suddenly if not necessarily quickly. I'll aggregate my thoughts and responses here.

wymtime wrote:

I think this is a really interesting chart in how things go, but I do question if this is a puzzle quest issue or a Marvel issue. ... The game has made major progress. Can they do better sure, but we should applaud them and encourage them first.

I think it's definitely a Marvel issue first and then an MPQ issue. I do want to stress that I don't intend this thread to bash Marvel or D3 or Demiurge.

Der_Lex wrote:

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Now here’s Angel, Iceman, Gambit, Jean Grey, Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer, Mr. Fantastic, Lockjaw and Winter Soldier.

Who are all popular, highly requested characters that a lot of people want to see in the game.

Diversity is a fine thing to strive for, but it shouldn't be the only thing to strive for. I'd hate for any of the above characters to be left out of the game because some kind of diversity quota wasn't being met.

Yes, true. I imagine they will all be in the game eventually if it exists for the long haul. I do think it's more accurate to say that they are popular, highly requested characters from people who are already playing the game. Part of the point of this thread is to try to identify characters that would make the game more welcoming for people who don't play the game yet. And I'm advocating for representation which is different than advocating for a quota. Or if I am advocating for a quota it's "How about more than zero?" which I don't think is a lot to ask for.

Dorianisms wrote:

I'd personally love to see Monica Rambeau, Jubilee, White Tiger, America Chavez...and those are just some names from comics I've been reading and enjoying over the past couple of months, there is no shortage of characters the game could draw from to add some much-needed representation.

Sullstar wrote:

With the New Mutants film announced, hopefully they consider some of these for the game, they have Native Americans Warpath and Danielle Moonstar, Latino Sunspot, Vietnamese (and LGBT) Karma. However I think they will complete most of the A-List characters they can obtain licenses for first as well as more of the most popular villains before they add diversity, it will happen, we just need to be patient

I love these posts, I'll refer back to them later and they're exactly the type of thing I'm looking for in this thread. Please post again if more characters come to mind. (That goes for everybody.)

stowaway wrote:

I'd love to see more diverse characters added to the game, but I'd hate to see obscure characters just for the sake of diversity.

Der_Lex wrote:

I also realize that D3 doesn't exactly have a large pool of iconic older and/or popular newer LBGT heroes and villains to choose from, and I wouldn't want them to pick some b- or c-lister who just happens to be gay, because that would seem like token representation or pandering to me.

I absolutely agree with both of these statements, I'm hoping we can identify viable alternatives. There's not really a good argument for Battlestar or Living Lightning being added to the game unless the roster slots number in the hundreds. (I am not advocating for hundreds of roster slots.)

Buret0 wrote:

If the census were of characters in the Marvel universe, how is MPQ doing?

I have no idea. This data set has 74 entries. The Marvel Wikia has over 40,000 entries. That's... too many to do in my spare time for free.

Malcrof wrote:

Curious, what colors did you put for Beast and Mystique, as their natural states are blue.... movies non-withstanding.

I categorized Beast as Caucasian since that's his original state and he appears that way in the early X-Men and X-Force issues. I categorized Mystique as Other.

Vertigozooropa wrote:

How is there no lavender on your pie chart? Did you miss Kamala?

This was a difficult call. She is Pakistani-American. Pakistan is bordered by Iran, Afghanistan, India and China. Wikipedia says the U. S. Census Bureau classifies Pakistani-Americans as API, so I went with that. I'm aware of Pakistani-Americans who identify as either Middle Eastern or API depending on situation, context and personal choice. There's no good way to do a census.

***At this point in the thread, things get a little heated. There are a lot of free online resources to address many of the issues referenced and I'd like the focus of the thread to be on identifying important, viable characters from the Marvel Universe that belong to under- or non- represented groups that correspond to actual human beings that play or might someday play the game.***

JVReal wrote:

This whole census thing is ridiculous.

I disagree.

****************************************

So.

Monica Rambeau, Jubilee, White Tiger, America Chavez, Warpath, Danielle Moonstar, Sunspot, and Karma.

As I said, my current Marvel knowledge is not comprehensive so I'm mostly going off of internet research.

I really like that both IceIX and Joe Fletcher mentioned Monica Rambeau in their posts and interviews respectively. A long established character with a power set that theoretically should make her one of the most powerful heroes in the MU. It's weird. If not for the desire of Mark Gruenwald to have Captain America take over the leadership of the Avengers from her, I feel like she would be on at least the level Carol Danvers is at now. Nextwave was awesome, and I hope there are plans for her in the new Marvel Universe that will lead to her being seen as important enough to be included in the game.

Speaking of leading the Avengers, a look at the Marvel Wikia shows that Sunspot has done just that recently. He's another character with a long history (more appearances than Sentry and Ares combined and three times as many appearances as The Hood according to the Wikia) and if the article is correct he just played Captain America to Captain America's Tony Stark in the hunt for the Illuminati. I hope he makes it in.

Jubilee's a vampire now? Um, okay. I don't really understand what's going on there. But long tenured, in an upcoming movie, sure, good, at least semi-viable.

I really like what little I've been able to find on White Tiger and America Chavez (and Silk). They're a little bit of a risk as they're fairly new without breaking out like Kamala and there's the danger that they'll turn into Triathalon/Jolt/Echo, but fingers crossed that we'll get them down the line. (Sidenote: Not happy that Echo apparently got killed. Ugh.)

Hopefully the New Mutants get a push with their upcoming movie and become bigger deals. Would love to see Dani Moonstar and Karma. Not as high on Warpath, as I've heard that Native Americans aren't happy with how his character reinforces negative stereotypes. Like just even the name. Really?

I'd like to reiterate that I'd be really happy with Nico Minoru being added to the game. And Miles Morales seems like a no-brainer. IceIX's mention of female Loki is interesting. And I think Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Rogue, Kitty Pryde, Kate Bishop and Spider-Gwen would all be welcome and well-received.

I appreciate the discussion (even the parts I don't agree with) and I'd like to hear more suggestions if anybody has them.

Xenoberyll

Represent diversity all you want but please be creative about it. Kamala is really well written and a great character - a fun book. If a character becomes a star that way i'm all for it but i don't like what they're doing to some of my long loved heroes just because they want to be P.C. I don't like the gimmicky feel about most of these changes.

Unknown

im really sick and tired of people saying dont give me diversity for the sake of diversity

speak-of-the-devil-mentioned-in-earlier-posts...: http://jas720.tumblr.com/post/122731405339

Malcrof

Monica Rambeau .. didn't really know anything about her actually before these posts... just snagged an Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16 (FA and O), she would make a great addition, but not as Captain Marvel, Photon, or Pulsar.. i want her as Spectrum.. never even knew she was a Captain Marvel or a Pulsar prior!

Also, her historical comic significance cannot be ignored

"Rambeau sought out the Avengers for help in mastering her new powers and became a member-in-training of their group, soon aiding them against Egghead. Befriended and mentored by Avengers veterans Captain America and the Wasp, Captain Marvel soon graduated to full membership after the battle against Plantman. She was the first African-American heroine of the team."

Unknown

I know I as a Native person am not wild about Warpath. In general, Indigenous representation in comics is pretty lacking--whether at Marvel or other companies. The characters that do exist tend to be very stereotyped, certainly not ones I feel represent me. Dani Moonstar is great though, as is Echo (Maya Lopez)

I thought I'd mention why I named the characters I did. I don't feel "diversity for diversity's sake" is necessarily a bad thing, but I don't feel it's a relevant argument for the names I chose, I think they'd all be good additions to the game for their own sake.

Monica I think has an incredibly strong argument for inclusion--she's been around for decades, she's served as leader of the Avengers, and beyond that her powerset is really cool (being able to turn into different types of energy has a lot of potential for neat game mechanics). She's a key character in Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers, which then became Captain America and the Mighty Avengers, and she's going to be one of the core members of his Ultimates book this fall--a team which also includes Black Panther, Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, Blue Marvel (another character I'd be into seeing) and

America Chavez who is much newer but I think really exciting? Her big breakout was the Gillen/McKelvie Young Avengers series which was very popular, and Marvel seems interested in pushing her more--she's getting major facetime in a couple of the Secret Wars event books and she is, as I mentioned, a core part of the Ultimates team. She's positioned really interestingly because she is from outside the Marvel multiverse canonically, which now that the multiverse is sort of crumbling puts her in a really unique situation story-wise. She's got your standard super-strength and flight, but also can create dimensional portals which again is something I feel has interesting game space.

White Tiger (Ava Alaya) is a legacy hero--her brother was the first White Tiger. She also was in Ewing's Mighty Avengers and is showing up in his Secret Wars series, Captain Britain and the Mighty Defenders. One of the reasons I think she'd be good in-game is because she has a high profile from television. Cartoons are a HUGE entry into superhero media for a lot of people (the DC animated universe is one of that company's most-successful endeavours), and she has a leading role in Marvel's Ultimate Spider-Man tv series, which has had mixed reviews but is popular and has run for quite a few seasons.

I don't think I need to justify Jubilee really. She was arguably *the* main character of the 90s X-Men series (certainly the audience surrogate for the first season at least), which is an iconic show (and getting a revival as a Secret Wars miniseries in the present day), and she's maintained a consistent comics presence since. She has strong story ties to Wolverine in particular and a lot of other X-characters. She's very recognizable and again has a unique powerset that could lend itself to some interesting moves.

My point, I suppose, is that these aren't obscure characters I'm pulling from forgotten runs of decades past--these are characters that either have significant history or who Marvel seems interested in foregrounding here and now, or both! Including them isn't "diversity for diversity's sake", it's choosing characters with a following and prominence in the source material, while also providing representation for groups who really don't see themselves in Yet Another Misunderstood White Guy

Marc_Spector

raisinbman wrote:

I am glad there's lots of black ppl in here tho, BLACK POWER represent!

But yeah I hope we get more POC and women-representation. And Shuma Gorath.

Like, someone pointed out we have a lack of female villains.

Agree, agree, agree.
And, you've been really winning me over to the idea of Shuma Gorath!! [hopefully the devs as well]

Der_Lex

Speaking of '90s X-Men... Whatever happened to Bishop? He used to be nearly as popular as Gambit and Cable and the like, and I think his energy absorbtion powers and time travel could translate into interesting game mechanics.

snlf25

Der_Lex wrote:

Speaking of '90s X-Men... Whatever happened to Bishop? He used to be nearly as popular as Gambit and Cable and the like, and I think his energy absorbtion powers and time travel could translate into interesting game mechanics.

And Forge too. He could be interesting with his power set. I can see a neutralization power, 5 turn countdown, while on the board the enemy team can not use any powers. Could be neat!

Omega Red

Americans are so cute. Fighting racism with more racism. JVReal gets my thumbs up in this discussion.

Unknown

Omega Red wrote:

Americans are so cute. Fighting racism with more racism. JVReal gets my thumbs up in this discussion.

why can't we downvote anymore?

Racism is a global issue

Omega Red

raisinbman wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

Americans are so cute. Fighting racism with more racism. JVReal gets my thumbs up in this discussion.

why can't we downvote anymore?

Racism is a global issue

I have seen way too many pseudo-progressive americans discuss diversity and poverty issues and reduce it all to an argument of race or gender. If you discriminate against a minority then you are racist. If you discriminate in favour of a minority then you are doing "affirmative action". If you discriminate against women you are a sexist mysoginist. If you discriminate in favour of women then you are "progressive" and a feminist. Very serious social issues are being reduced simply to an argument of what is your skin colour and what genitals you have between your legs.

I have no issue with serious study and census of where we are currently, but the moment we start pushing for inclusion of minorities for the sole fact they are minorities we are only perpetuating the problem, not solving it.

I am hispanic. Including Bonita Juarez would not make me feel well represented in the game. On the other hand, including characters with traits that reflect on me would. Peter Parker is popular not because he is white, but because he was the high school nerd. That kind of representation is way more powerful than a mere colour token.

binarypillbug

Omega Red, what/who specifically are your posts in response to?

Unknown

binarypillbug wrote:

Omega Red, what/who specifically are your posts in response to?

omega is responding to 'americans', so obviously from a planet where racism doesn't exist, because there's racism EVERYWHERE on Earth.