DEVS: Before you release the next PVE

turul

The last two PVEs werent so great, so I try to summarize what should be fixed, before developers release the next PVE.

Differential enemy level scaling based on player
It has to be removed, even if it could be fixed. Best thing is to have easy, medium, and hard missions. Dinamically scaling by missions done is OK but should be reset on every new sub. However I dont really suggest that.

Unreachable progression rewards
It seems like the OSCORP Heroic doesnt provide enough point to be possible to grind out all rewards.
Mathematically it may be possible, however due to missions take (quite a lot) time, refreshes overlapped each other.
I think the top possible score in this circumsťance is about 30k for one who has no life. 20k for an "average grinder" ( if he had something worth to grind for at 20k).
To fix this:
1) Hard reset the mission map, like in Juggernaught Heroic.
2) Scale progression rewards more wisely.
3) Compensate this failed Heroic with a 5x score multiply!

Repeatables in main PVE map
In TaT, one who did not collect a lot of points in the subs, could easily catch up due to man PVE missions which where repeatable and rubberbanded.
Main event should not contain repeatables in these circumstances!

HEROIC character selection
Yes, its based on a limited set, sice its HEROIC, however a randomgenerated set would turn out more enjoyable!
Based on this difficulty, a few extra choices and a few extra buffed characters would be nice.

If an event turns out to be failing in the first day
Remove it quickly, leave some notes on the forum.

Upcoming nerfs
If you still plan to funbalance Spiderman and Magneto, no matter how much most of us tell you not to, just try nerfing by adding +1 AP to balance-needed abilities and test it out. Ragnarok also should be rethinked, he is even weak when buffed. RESPEC system!

PLEASE DONT WHINE IN THIS THREAD, ONLY CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IS WELCOME

Unknown

They should play it out like the hulk event. No player scaling, just set levels for villains, high level towards the end and have it at that. The top prizes will be based on the amount of grinding the player wants to do.

Phaserhawk

turul wrote:

The last two PVEs werent so great, so I try to summarize what should be fixed, before developers release the next PVE.

Differential enemy level scaling based on player
It has to be removed, even if it could be fixed. Best thing is to have easy, medium, and hard missions. Dinamically scaling by missions done is OK but should be reset on every new sub. However I dont really suggest that.

Unreachable progression rewards
It seems like the OSCORP Heroic doesnt provide enough point to be possible to grind out all rewards.
Mathematically it may be possible, however due to missions take (quite a lot) time, refreshes overlapped each other.
I think the top possible score in this circumsťance is about 30k for one who has no life. 20k for an "average grinder" ( if he had something worth to grind for at 20k).
To fix this:
1) Hard reset the mission map, like in Juggernaught Heroic.
2) Scale progression rewards more wisely.
3) Compensate this failed Heroic with a 5x score multiply!

Repeatables in main PVE map
In TaT, one who did not collect a lot of points in the subs, could easily catch up due to man PVE missions which where repeatable and rubberbanded.
Main event should not contain repeatables in these circumstances!

HEROIC character selection
Yes, its based on a limited set, sice its HEROIC, however a randomgenerated set would turn out more enjoyable!
Based on this difficulty, a few extra choices and a few extra buffed characters would be nice.

If an event turns out to be failing in the first day
Remove it quickly, leave some notes on the forum.

Upcoming nerfs
If you still plan to funbalance Spiderman and Magneto, no matter how much most of us tell you not to, just try nerfing by adding +1 AP to balance-needed abilities and test it out. Ragnarok also should be rethinked, he is even weak when buffed. RESPEC system!

PLEASE DONT WHINE IN THIS THREAD, ONLY CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IS WELCOME

You sir a genius, wonderfully written and spot on, I can't even elaborate on anything you hit them just perfectly

Unknown

The level scaling thing is probably going to stay because they don't want the same 5 guys always winning PvE either, and even in TaT it was still usually the same 5 guys that won.

The progression reward is very off this time but I assume that's because they're still using the pre nerf data where everyone immediately got every mission down to 1 the moment it refreshed.

In general I'd recommend in limited roster fights to consider buffing the underused characters. In this tournament the buffs should be Daredevil, IW, and Hawkeye. Possibly Storm.

Unknown

turul wrote:

Differential enemy level scaling based on player
It has to be removed, even if it could be fixed. Best thing is to have easy, medium, and hard missions. Dinamically scaling by missions done is OK but should be reset on every new sub. However I dont really suggest that.
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A statical scaling would be fine. i.e. for OSCORP a mission starts at lvl 20 for everyone, increases by say 10 levels at each repeat, and drops by 20 levels every 12/24 h to the base value.
Instead a dynamic scaling based on player level/mmr/good looks/age of their dog, being a fancy equation, even if very well written will result in some unfair treatment anyway, even more so if the devs are no good at predict the actual outcome of their formulas.

Very nice post.

Unknown

I would imagine most of these events are already hard-coded into the patches and can only be tweaked around the fringes.

So, I wouldn't expect much dramatic changes in the PvE until next patch.

Unknown

I understand that player scaling is to promote more people placing higher and spreading the wealth, where is yhe balance to making the game unplayable/ not fun for the higher levels? If the finish line for playing towards high level is everybody level 230, I'd rather save ALL my Iso and never level up at all. Will be a much funner game that way.

Unknown

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

I understand that player scaling is to promote more people placing higher and spreading the wealth, where is yhe balance to making the game unplayable/ not fun for the higher levels? If the finish line for playing towards high level is everybody level 230, I'd rather save ALL my Iso and never level up at all. Will be a much funner game that way.

This post is one of the many reasons the forums need a like button.

Unknown

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

I understand that player scaling is to promote more people placing higher and spreading the wealth, where is yhe balance to making the game unplayable/ not fun for the higher levels? If the finish line for playing towards high level is everybody level 230, I'd rather save ALL my Iso and never level up at all. Will be a much funner game that way.

I have by far the strongest roster in my bracket and I started with a very commanding lead. That lead has shrunk due to me being overconfident. I can see the #2 guy is clearly playing significantly more hours than me, so if my superior roster fails to hold that lead, it'd still be my fault.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

they don't want the same 5 guys always winning PvE either, and even in TaT it was still usually the same 5 guys that won.

If those 5 guys are the best guys, why shouldn't they win?

Unknown

Microtom wrote:

Phantron wrote:

they don't want the same 5 guys always winning PvE either, and even in TaT it was still usually the same 5 guys that won.

If those 5 guys are the best guys, why shouldn't they win?

Because there's really nothing for D3 to be gained for the same 5 guys who probably aren't even paying any money at this point to always win.

My placed top 2 in TaT overall (didn't have time to check if I was #1 and #2), and my sub bracket placement was 3/2/2/1/1/10 (ran out of time for final sub). As cool as it is to be selling those Patch covers back for 25 HP, it'd be better for the game if that wealth was shared around. I wasn't even trying to win the sub-brackets toward the end.

Unknown

I like the idea of scaling, kinda. Obviously not the way it's been implemented in these last 2 trainwreck events.

In a sub that lasts a day, if each individual mission got a little harder every time you beat, that would be a great way of soft-capping the available points from that mission, as opposed to just locking it after one go. It would also let people play their way - if I want to play for 5 hours in one sitting and beat every mission 4 times I can, instead of having to keep a log of when I beat which mission and when they'll reset.

In a main event or something like Heroic Oscorp the difficulty could scale up on an individual mission until it hits 230, and then both the enemy level and point value could scale down. I think you'd see a wider range in scores, and effort, rosters and skills would be rewarded. Positively rewarded I mean. You know, what I'm going for is if you're good and your roster is solid, you can do better. You guys...you did the opposite, and it isn't all that great.

Any scaling should be tied to an individual mission though. This stuff where if I beat mission 1, mission 2, 3 etc get harder doesn't work.

Unknown

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

No player scaling

Seriously; it's ridiculous to see people with 1 & 2 star rosters finishing higher than me because have they have played less and get to face much weaker opponents.

Can we get some consistency? Ever?

Unknown

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

I understand that player scaling is to promote more people placing higher and spreading the wealth, where is yhe balance to making the game unplayable/ not fun for the higher levels? If the finish line for playing towards high level is everybody level 230, I'd rather save ALL my Iso and never level up at all. Will be a much funner game that way.

+ eleventy million Internets for this post.

I have tons of covers, personally. Outside of one of two remaining 2* covers, I have them all. I have a reasonable number of 3* covers of most heroes and villains. I have enough to be annoying, but not truly a contender in most situations, with the exception of a few that could reach 100ish if ISO were available in any real quantity.

That being said, I am **DEATHLY** afraid to level up any of my covers in complete fear that I will be considered a "high-level" character and face the wall of triple 141s in PvP and the 230 in PvE. At the moment, I refuse to level any of my 3*s over 85, afraid that the system will recognize me as 3* player. I know, this is likely all in my head (to some degree), but the fear is very real and drives my in-game motivations. I will bend over backwards to find ways to lower my MMR to avoid this scenario, such as the mass genocides in TaT to lower PvE encounters down to playable levels.

I should be playing the game to enjoy myself and what I can accomplish, however limited in capacity that is. I should NOT have to be playing to game the system just to keep MPQ playable in some form.

Kiamodo

I have a pretty good group of characters and this event is unplayable for me. I'm not going to waste my ISO leveling up these characters. I'm just going to ignore this event and wait for the next. Hopefully this doesn't become common place. I understand their objective it just won't work on people with powerful teams that cannot play. I'll just play no holds barred and the shield training. It's boring and I play less.

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

No player scaling

Seriously; it's ridiculous to see people with 1 & 2 star rosters finishing higher than me because have they have played less and get to face much weaker opponents.

Can we get some consistency? Ever?

People who can't beaten Oscorp in regular mode shouldn't be strong enough to compete in Heroic mode. It does not make sense. You shouldn't be able to jump to new game plus. Jumping to new game plus and having the game decide to give you weaker opponents because you are strong enough yet does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

I would imagine most of these events are already hard-coded into the patches and can only be tweaked around the fringes.

So, I wouldn't expect much dramatic changes in the PvE until next patch.

It'd be grossly unfair to people who've struggled through its current state to mess with it in any substantial way this late. They need to let this run its course and then try again, hopefully with better testing and less ambition outstripping ability on the too clever for its own good algorithm front. Amid all the cries of "compensate!" I can't help but think those of us who couldn't or wouldn't play this mess are fine. If anyone should be getting compensated, it's people who spent half an hour stun-locking level 230 Dark Avengers for 80 shiny points.

Unknown

Blue Shoes wrote:

MikeHock wrote:

nicholasjohnconger wrote:

No player scaling

Seriously; it's ridiculous to see people with 1 & 2 star rosters finishing higher than me because have they have played less and get to face much weaker opponents.

Can we get some consistency? Ever?

People who can't beaten Oscorp in regular mode shouldn't be strong enough to compete in Heroic mode. It does not make sense. You shouldn't be able to jump to new game plus. Jumping to new game plus and having the game decide to give you weaker opponents because you are strong enough yet does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

The Chewbacca defense sounds like D3-reasoning.

Unknown

Veracity wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

I would imagine most of these events are already hard-coded into the patches and can only be tweaked around the fringes.

So, I wouldn't expect much dramatic changes in the PvE until next patch.

It'd be grossly unfair to people who've struggled through its current state to mess with it in any substantial way this late. They need to let this run its course and then try again, hopefully with better testing and less ambition outstripping ability on the too clever for its own good algorithm front. Amid all the cries of "compensate!" I can't help but think those of us who couldn't or wouldn't play this mess are fine. If anyone should be getting compensated, it's people who spent half an hour stun-locking level 230 Dark Avengers for 80 shiny points.

Yeah. It would've been ok to boost a couple characters or expand the available roster on Friday. It might have been acceptable on Saturday. But it's way too late in the game now. All they can do is admit their mistake and assure us it won't happen again, and it's starting to look like even that is too much to ask for.

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

That being said, I am **DEATHLY** afraid to level up any of my covers in complete fear that I will be considered a "high-level" character and face the wall of triple 141s in PvP and the 230 in PvE. At the moment, I refuse to level any of my 3*s over 85, afraid that the system will recognize me as 3* player. I know, this is likely all in my head (to some degree), but the fear is very real and drives my in-game motivations. I will bend over backwards to find ways to lower my MMR to avoid this scenario, such as the mass genocides in TaT to lower PvE encounters down to playable levels.

This will do you no good. My highest is 66 for this event, and I'm still facing 230's. It was never based off your character level. It seems more skill based, but what seems to be off is the reduction in levels when you get a legitimate loss, and has a horrible scaling on wins. I can consistently beat the level 230 goon squads with my team, but if I happen to lose, I imagine I would only see a small decrease in enemy level. So it's fine to level your characters. I'd say that their is probably some other factor. Perhaps a total amount of account ISO invested? That might help to explain initial level. But tbh, I haven't a clue. The best bet is to play how you want and hope for the best.

Unknown

I had a wierd thing happen at lunch - I tried one of the 200 point missions - the one with Venom and the two grenadiers - and managed to win it without using the 150%. Not a huge deal - they were "only" 103rd-104th level, and with my 75th Wolverine, 53rd (3/2/1) Spider-Man, and 18th (required) 1/0/1 Daredevil, I figured all I'd need to do it was moderate luck.

The weird thing is I looked at it again and the levels had all dropped by 10, to 93rd-94th. I didn't really have time to do it again, but it seemed so counter-intuitive to have the levels drop after a win that I don't know if it's a function of whatever weird algorithm they're using or it's a sign they're tinkering with things behind the scenes.