Derethus wrote: Also no one is complaining about the wolvie and thor nerfs. It's more a question of the timing they chose to roll out the nerfs.
Typhon13 wrote: Um, if you skipped through just about any pvp, almost everyone had a high level Thor or wolvie. They were the many, the guys who didn't were the few.
Demiurge_Will wrote: If you earn a bunch of currency through play, buy a bunch of currency, and spend a bunch of currency in a bunch of different places, there's no clear way to determine that a particular batch of Iso-8/Hero Points was bought for a particular purpose. It has less to do with technical issues (though anything that would have to do with scraping the game's logs and doing something on the server in response would require engineering effort that we'd rather use to make the game better) and more to do with the nature of a currency. Increasing the sell price is easy to understand and seemed to us like a fair solution - it's helpful to hear your feedback on how it felt, thanks for that.
Narkon wrote: Although I agree with most in the OP, I have to say it is easier to find new players to agree with it than veterans who have spent time and money to level the nerfed characters. For a new player who starts now, sure, the changes are probably good. Most were angry with the patch because it did3 things. ...
Narkon wrote: Demiurge_Will wrote: If you earn a bunch of currency through play, buy a bunch of currency, and spend a bunch of currency in a bunch of different places, there's no clear way to determine that a particular batch of Iso-8/Hero Points was bought for a particular purpose. It has less to do with technical issues (though anything that would have to do with scraping the game's logs and doing something on the server in response would require engineering effort that we'd rather use to make the game better) and more to do with the nature of a currency. Increasing the sell price is easy to understand and seemed to us like a fair solution - it's helpful to hear your feedback on how it felt, thanks for that. Actually, where the ISO or HP came from is irrelevant if the player has purchased ISO or HP in the game. Why? Because the ISO AND HP he purchased went in a feature in the game. An example Let's assume someone buys 2900 HP (€17) and opens 10 roster slots (in the 250-350HP range) because he needs them. With the HP he gains in game he buys covers for a ** character because he doesn't need more slots. If you make a change that makes a hero not desirable any more, you essentially cancel the progress he made in the game. Compare his situation with another player's who never paid anything and simply used his in-game HP to open the slots. His hero will not have all abilities leveled, but this hardly matters if he no longer likes the hero. He will just sell him and make some HP for his trouble. The thing is that when there is a change that devalues a player's progress, and that player has spent real money, the game should assume that the progress that was lost was achieved with the money that was spent (up to a certain value after the progress is quantified). In almost all these cases the creator of the product will lose from this process, but ultimately it was his fault for creating and distributing something that was either not properly tested or released prematurely. Even more so when there is no indication that the product is in a testing phase when the consumer purchases it.
Telicis wrote: A. The game is still in beta, this is something anyone who plays the game should be very aware of, as it's mentioned in several places BESIDES FAQs.
Telicis wrote: B. Your last paragraph sort of ignores the fact that any online game naturally is going to change over time. Any time a change is made, someone, SOMEWHERE, is going to have their progress "Devalued". In addition, short of releasing the game to a different population, no truly sufficient testing phase can even occur in a way that handles all problems.
L45TN7 wrote: whoever said i shouldnt expect to win every pve battle is a tinykitty idiot. trying to beat the first dakan mission where he shows up with 2 assassins they're all level 201 - way up from the first missions 89. seriously, mandatory daredevil at level 77 and even with my spidey 141 and wolverine at 85 i cant avoid green being matched especially when both assassins create green countdown tiles. i miss my tinykitty magneto***
wirius wrote: Its very simple guys: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." That's what this patch was. Now if you are one of the few who exclusively used thor and wolverine, or popped boosts like a drug, you're going to be upset. You had power! So much power! And now you don't. So you rage. Understandable, most people can't deal with a loss of power, even if its for the good of all. But I'm going to try to explain how its beneficial anyway. Because I believe most people are pretty good, and can be reasoned with after the initial rage subsides. 1. Thor and Wolverine, are not destroyed, they are now at the power they were supposed to be. ** star characters shouldn't have been that much better than *** star characters, otherwise, why continue to climb? I think this has been addressed enough by the devs. Go check out their post if you need more justification. 2. You're not supposed to always win every PvE fight. This one boggles me a little. Guys, if you think you should be winning every PvE fight, you're a little self entitled. The devs put fights out there that should be beyond certain players, and that's o.k. Sure, you're not going to earn as much as the team with the *** star roster, and you shouldn't. But you still can earn iso, covers, and keep building that team to one day compete. "But the rich get richer!" you say. So what are they supposed to do? If you have a top roster you're...supposed to lose more? Even post nerf, my 85 Thor, with a 40 patch and OBW got in the top 20 in the daredevil tournament. Did I expect to hit top ten? Hell no. Did I expect to even hit top 50? Not really. There were plenty of PvE fights I couldn't do either. I don't feel entitled too if I don't have the characters. 3. You spent money on your character, yet you don't think about the benefit you got over those who didn't. Look, you spent money on Thor or Wolv. Got it, you're pissed because instead of being overpowered, they're just good ** stars. What about all of those things you won when you had overpowered characters? Some of you had months of overpowered advantage, which was VERY worth the money compared to where you would be now if you didn't spend it. What about all the people who didn't have a chance to compete with you? I know you want to win, but was it a FAIR win? Are you upset and claiming its unfair that fairness in balancing has ruined your reign of power? Now you know what its like to be the super rich and be told taxes will increase, lol. 4. The devs had no way of tracking how much paid money and iso you spent on a character. How do you expect a full refund? Did you honestly not expect balancing to occur as the game continued down the road? You knew what you were doing when you paid to get blatently overpowered characters, and you reaped their rewards. The devs don't owe you a single cent back. After all, if the devs would refund a character completely after nerfs, wouldn't that only encourage more people to flood overpowered characters, knowing there would be no disadvantage to do so? Do we really want that? 5. Boosts should have been a real cost to gain advantage beyond what you were supposed to be at. Now they are. Pretty self explanatory. Its a boost, not a drug or a needed form of gameplay. It was being abused. Now you have to think if you want to burn beyond your power level. Again, a good thing for the game. Conclusion: You may not agree with everything I've said, and that's fine. But I want you to take one thing from it: the developers are making these changes for the health of the game as a whole. Try to step outside of yourself, how it impacts you only, and start thinking about tons of other people who wish to play competitively too, and the long term health of a game that encourages variety, and not a few overpowered champs and ISO drug use.
Derethus wrote: Telicis wrote: A. The game is still in beta, this is something anyone who plays the game should be very aware of, as it's mentioned in several places BESIDES FAQs. Except the game now says "Launch Edition" instead of "Preview Edition", giving the impression that the game is out of beta. If this game really still is in beta, they should have left it at "Preview Edition".
Derethus wrote: Telicis wrote: B. Your last paragraph sort of ignores the fact that any online game naturally is going to change over time. Any time a change is made, someone, SOMEWHERE, is going to have their progress "Devalued". In addition, short of releasing the game to a different population, no truly sufficient testing phase can even occur in a way that handles all problems. The difference between this and other online games is that you have to put resources into your characters and "buy" them multiple times. Unlike League of Legends where buying a champion is a one-time affair, or SC2 where everything is self contained, in this game, you need 10 to 13 covers for each character, and a massive amount of iso to level them up. The increased sell back price when they got nerfed was nice, but it still isn't enough for people who really only had these 2 characters. On top of that they immediately followed it up with 3 events needing those characters.
wirius wrote: Its very simple guys: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."
Abstrakt Fists wrote: Why did my last post get deleted? Are the mods on these boards power trippers? I didn't even say anything bad. I'll reiterate the last point in my previous post though. This solution is like solving the minimum wage debate by giving everyone minimum wage. The people who work the hardest should have the best characters, making the best characters suck just makes it so there isn't anything to work towards. Maybe Thor was a bit OP but that is why so many of us spent months getting covers and ISO to max him out. The better strategy would be to make some of the **** heroes more powerful rather than throwing my hard work in the toilet.
Telicis wrote: As for the events featuring them: I get the logic currently going on. They rebalanced characters, and now are featuring them in an attempt to get them replaytested. I am sure if Thor and Wolverine proved to be worse than all *s, or on the level of Bagman, they'd also re-adjust them to be stronger. That's common sense. (Sidenote: This is an entirely seperate issue to the fact they are restricting rosters/still not scaling things properly. WHOLE other issue)
Telicis wrote: As for the people who only had Thor and Wolverine... I think if at any point in time a strategy relies on only one or two out of a multitude of options, it's a sign that A. something is broken and needs to be fixed or B. the person making those choices should suffer in comparison to those who go for a more well-rounded/adaptable strategy. That's the cornerstone of all strategy games, in any form, ever (because ultimately perfectly level balance is impossible in a game). It's part of the consequence of that choice. Any choice you make as a player is a consequence. The fact you spent money doesn't change that. Everyone seems to understand this on a base "you choose with match to make during a battle" level, so I don't get why they can't extend it. What you choose to spend that currency on that you purchased isn't up to anyone else. N.B. Anytime I say "you" I am speaking generally, no to you specifically.
Derethus wrote: The problem is you're trying to playtest them while they are boosted. If they really wanted to playtest them, they could easily have a No Holds Barred tournament. A lot of people held onto their Thors and Wolverines. You can tell by looking at the rosters in Avengers Elite and The Best There Is. Having a tournament where everyone is the same strength would have been a far greater playtest environment
Derethus wrote: I would be far more accepting of this if it didn't take so much time/iso/hp to get 13 covers and level a character to max. Starting out, if you really want to compete, you pick 3 characters and focus on them. Thor and Wolverine are both offered in the prologue and relatively strong. The reason I was comparing to League of Legends is that, in that game, when something gets nerfed, it doesn't take much time to get back to a competitive level. In this game, when something gets nerfed, it could take some player a long time to get back to the same level. The entire time they spend doing that, they're winning less fights, progressing less in the story, etc. Nerfs need to happen, sure, but you also need to keep players progressing and playing, otherwise they get discouraged and leave.