Explaining the "Hate"

forch

The forums have been filled with a lot of disappointment, frustration and venom recently (and a few posts from those who genuinely are enjoying the game). While everyone is welcome to believe what ever they like, I thought it might be useful to explain the "hate" in very practical terms so that folks that are interested can get a better understanding of a different perspective.

Some of us have been playing the game for a very long time (I am on day 543) and have put in a lot of time, energy and even some money. After that much effort, we would simply like to enjoy the game -- it is a rather reasonable request. To those that say: "It is a game, you should just stop playing if you don't enjoy it," your comments are both belittling and offensive. As with most social contracts, expectations are set and when those expectations are broken, most folks try not to just take their ball and go home. Starting up a new game requires a lot of investment (time or money) before you have enough diversity of abilities to play the game with any level of richness. The problem with most characters isn't just that they are weak, but they are also quite boring.

Others have made seemingly reasonable requests to have a calm rationale discourse on the topic (e.g., Pylgrim's cut the devs some slack, mageofshadow's let's all be nice to each other, and Dauthi's honey rather than vinegar) but that assumes that the discourse is between two rationale adults having a discussion. It isn't. MPQ is a business and their goals are to make money, not be fair, rationale or honest (even if they cloak their comments in these terms). Leaving obviously overpowered characters long enough for folks to spend time and (more importantly) money to get covers and levels and then nerfing them after enough money has been spent is a fundamentally dishonest action. Having an HP sale right before nerfing an OP XForce without commenting on the nerfs until after the sale is finished is a fundamentally dishonest action with the obvious effect of pulling more money out of the player base. Constructing a reward structure that forces everyone into Alliances and then making the alliance rewards require massive effort from all players (by creating a feeling that you are doing this for your alliance buddies, not the game) is a fundamentally dishonest action. MPQ has their EULA, so they have the legal right to do this and it will continue as long as the player base continues to accept it.

While honest, open and respectful engagement is often an excellent strategy to persuade others, it isn't always effective or appropriate. Would you politely explain to a used car salesman all the reasons why his offer isn't fair or balanced? Not if you wanted to buy a car at a reasonable price. As the owners of MPQ are, quite reasonably, motivated by money, the rationale response is rather simple -- spread vicious scathing commentary to discourage players, downgrade the ratings on itunes and play store, and put terrible reviews to scare away new users. If this is done openly by enough people, the developers might change their tactics and construct a game that many of us would enjoy much more (e.g., more fun, less grind). Otherwise, they will continue to do what they are doing now -- because they likely believe that this is what will make them the most money.

Unfortunately, my time with this game is coming to its end. I once really enjoyed all aspects. Then PvE became a grind and I gave it up (along with the Alliance that I otherwise enjoyed). Fortunately, I found an great alliance that didn't have PvE requirements but still consistently put up top 100 PvP scores (since I have a deep 3* roster, new toons and 4* are the only real place to go). Then PvP became a grind with the new MMR and increased health. While the Ultron event was really fun at first, it became unbearably repetitive long before we finished Round 7 of the second event. Locking my alliance into a situation where if I didn't grind it out, it would be hurting 19 buddies was a particularly frustrating design decision. I guess that each person can decide if they think that this was an honest "mistake" or the MPQ dev team taking advantage of the social pressure to squeeze more money out of the player base. Issues with their execution only serve to exacerbate the core issue. Most of us would be fairly understanding of issues if we believed that they were honest and were addressed quickly. Unfortunately, they aren't.

Hopefully MPQ developers change their course and starting making content that is fun without the grind. I would happily pay money to unlock mini-story line events that had even modest rewards (e.g., get the comic feel back into the game). The original hulk event and the deadpool quest line both had more of this feel. Unless the community demands change (in a less than subtle way) it seems very unlikely to happen, which is why the "hate" might actually the best thing that folks can do to improve the game.

TheOncomingStorm

In fairness, the last two months or so have been much harder on everyone. The 4* rebalances, mmr change, so many new characters in such a short period, etc. I think things will start returning to normal later this week. I know I've been especially grumpy and vented a lot more than normal as of late. All the changes so quickly, people leaving, new people coming in, etc.

There is so much to discuss regarding the changes and new strategies. That'll come soon enough. A nice peaceful period would probably be welcomed by all.

Unknown

I hear the criticism and agree with a lot of it. Im just not hearing the resolutions that are mutually beneficial to the player, the developers, and the men with the money that make this enterprise possible. What do you suggest?

Ludaa

I feel their lack of communication has created an "us versus them" mentality, which I think should be priority #1 in fixing. Aside from that, you couldn't pay me enough to be an MPQ Dev. Yes, they have to keep the game fun, but they also have to get you to spend whether you're new or on day 500. I don't think any of us would like to hear the meetings on that subject, a necessary evil to keep the game running. Keeping everyone at optimal levels of "fun" seems damn near impossible! More/better monetization would be my only suggestion on that front.

forch

While I doubt constructive input actual helps, I will give some (in addition to the mountains that has been provided by others).

Make interesting characters that are not overpowered and then need to be nerfed to prevent the game from become a 4hor / XF only. Obviously, getting this perfect is hard -- but everyone could tell that the old XF and IW were terrible and that 4hor and updated XF were overpowered. When something is wrong, fix it. But do it in an open, transparent and incremental way (small fixes on a regular basis rather than these mega nerfs). Try not to break the interesting parts of the character when you do it. For instance, what made XF fun was that you had to balance the use of SS (wipe out the adversary AP just before they could use it) and balance your own team to make use of the AP that it generated. It added richness to the game. The new SS does more damage but is much more boring. Don't have an HP sale right before you announce a nerf. If you have to have a major nerf, let folks rebalance their current covers as compensation.

Keep PvE for those that love it. Keep it accessible to newer players by letting it scale to easier fights based on the level of your roster. This will give newer players a chance to progress and get covers that are needed for other elements. Those that want to progress quickly will spend real money.

Keep PvP, but don't make it so much of a grind. If you want to have higher HP characters, give more points per combat or lower the points needed for progression (the first is preferable as everyone has gotten used to the current scale of 600+ points per pvp + 1500 sim points gives you a solid season). Make the challenge of PvP the fact that others will knock you down so that you have to balance characters that are strong on defense and offense (and make more characters that are strong on defense to make this balance interesting). Make the rewards more in reach so that more people will spend on shield cycles to reach those rewards. Make people want to spend money for the fun of achieving a meaningful goal.

Have more gauntlets. Some folks really enjoy the challenge of a true PvE event. It doesn't matter if they are new story lines -- so these should be very easy to develop. Their difficult nature will encourage players to spend money to progress.

Add in a pay-only option that gives folks willing to pay money direct access to mini-sequences (think Hulk and deadpool intros) with modest rewards (e.g., 500 HP). This will allow those of us that want to pay them money to play a relaxed game with some interesting content a chance to do that. It will also bring back the comic heritage to the game.

But these are constructive ideas. I don't think that constructive ideas work well (see how well they responded to Nonce's constructive ideas -- noting that his ideas are much better than mine) until something gets their attention. A few thousand people posting a bad review on Google Play would get their attention. After that, perhaps they would be more open to constructive ideas...

Unknown

Thumbs up. I like your ideas and the way you relay them. Now I think we've hit a dead end as you say.

Unknown

forch wrote:

While I doubt constructive input actual helps, I will give some (in addition to the mountains that has been provided by others).

Make interesting characters that are not overpowered and then need to be nerfed to prevent the game from become a 4hor / XF only. Obviously, getting this perfect is hard -- but everyone could tell that the old XF and IW were terrible and that 4hor and updated XF were overpowered. When something is wrong, fix it. Don't have an HP sale right before you announce a nerf. If you have to have a major nerf, let folks rebalance their current covers as compensation.

^THIS. None of this is even slightly complicated to understand... the "method of monetization" in this game is a transparent and pathetic schtick. It is literally:
#1 intentionally make an OP character/ character skill
#2 wait till everyone buys or grinds hard to get said OP thing
#3 nerf said OP thing
#4 go back to step #1

I am at day 445+ and I have seen this pathetic **** time and time again.

I am sorry, but if this is what passes as "what comes out of meetings about funding the game's future", then they need new blood in this dev team...
Also don't claim that you are just "fine-tuning the balance" of a game, when you are constantly breaking it - with almost every new character (Quicksilver the obvious exception that comes to mind). Some of us are a little too intelligent to buy into the tinykitty that is being spread by the devs at times.

There is a very serious and obvious disconnect.
#1 When something needs said, there is usually silence. (explanations of why things are being done that screw the player base over - such as run Ultron back to back, make his health too high, not give any compensation until it is too late to use... etc. etc.)
#2 When no commentary would be best, we get bull tinykitty instead (telling us that they do things that screw over the players "for the sake of balance")
#3 When something should not be done, it is done. (make new characters with OP abilities)
#4 When nothing needs done, often there is action. (Nerfs on 4*s making them glorified 3*s)

With all that being said... this was once a great game, and it is no longer - it is still "good" though. If the reason that it is no longer the game that it once was, IS because they needed further monetization in order to fuel it's future - then it shouldn't have a future. AND IT WON'T! If the bean counters or money men, as they have been called, have the sway over this game that some think they do, then you can put a fork in this game - because it is done.

scottee

Thamanator wrote:

^THIS. None of this is even slightly complicated to understand... the "method of monetization" in this game is a transparent and pathetic schtick. It is literally:
#1 intentionally make an OP character/ character skill
#2 wait till everyone buys or grinds hard to get said OP thing
#3 nerf said OP thing
#4 go back to step #1

I am at day 445+ and I have seen this pathetic **** time and time again.

I don't disagree that this is what has in essence happened, or that this cycle needs to stop, but it is presumptuous that it is intentional. It's possible their metrics are just way off when it comes to balance. Or they're balancing for low level play and not high level. Or for PVE and not PVP. Or people who play test have wildly varying playstyles compared to most. Or...

Not saying any of these are true. And it may very well be intentional. But I haven't seen any text or quotes to substantiate that.

itstime1234

scottee wrote:

Thamanator wrote:

^THIS. None of this is even slightly complicated to understand... the "method of monetization" in this game is a transparent and pathetic schtick. It is literally:
#1 intentionally make an OP character/ character skill
#2 wait till everyone buys or grinds hard to get said OP thing
#3 nerf said OP thing
#4 go back to step #1

I am at day 445+ and I have seen this pathetic **** time and time again.

I don't disagree that this is what has in essence happened, or that this cycle needs to stop, but it is presumptuous that it is intentional. It's possible their metrics are just way off when it comes to balance. Or they're balancing for low level play and not high level. Or for PVE and not PVP. Or people who play test have wildly varying playstyles compared to most. Or...

Not saying any of these are true. And it may very well be intentional. But I haven't seen any text or quotes to substantiate that.

The new skills for these nerfed characters weren't dreamt up in a day. Why don't the devs put a notice up to say xforce is being reviewed for the so called fun balancing as oppose to in the end. Obv they are hoping for some more funds before the nerf.

Why do certain nerfs take so long until the point everyone has one. That's because the coolest toy no long is generating significant revenues. Return a small portion in a so called refund rinse and repeat.

Unknown

When the cycle is so blatantly obvious, no text or quotes are necessary. And it doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. The effects are the same, so the outrage will be the same. There are many times in my life where I have seen just as much damage done via incompetence as under malice. MPQ is a great showcase for one of these things, and it doesn't matter which it is... it is still making a NPE (negative play experience) for the longtime players.

Also FYI, the rinse/repeat manner in which it keeps happening, leads more towards intentional than accidental incompetence... It isn't like they have zero data to look at from the past... LOL

Every-time a new character and their powers are announced, I look at all of the data and figure out which component of them is the OP power that is supposed to make sales for them, and I know which thing will get nerfed next as well...

itstime1234

This is very similar to my prior consulting job I had. The partners weren't seeing any significant growth in the firms income and realized employees were getting a lot of perks so they decided to cut some things to help the bottom line. Worked like a charm and the bottom line grew. Same issue in the following years and they continued to go to that well.

By the end of year 4 the firm was completely different, employees went from skilled individuals to manual labor. The cutting was so bad that morale dropped like a hammer, we lost 2 people for every 1 we recruited and each remaining persons workload basically doubled. After last year I quit along with many other co workers and I continue to hear that the job is getting worse and worse and now the firm is losing clients greater than all the cost savings they received.

Moral of the story, stop going to the new releaseand nerf well too much as it shouldnt be a true revenue stream.

Unknown

This is one of the many ways that the pay to win profit structure is killing gaming. When you expect people to pay hundreds of dollars to play a very simple game those people are going to feel like they should have something to show for the money they have spent. Instead they just get a hand in their pockets looking for more money.

Unknown

Cayasha wrote:

This is one of the many ways that the pay to win profit structure is killing gaming. When you expect people to pay hundreds of dollars to play a very simple game those people are going to feel like they should have something to show for the money they have spent. Instead they just get a hand in their pockets looking for more money.

I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it were just pay-to-win. Now it's more like pay-and-grind-insanely-to-win.

Stax the Foyer

scottee wrote:

Thamanator wrote:

^THIS. None of this is even slightly complicated to understand... the "method of monetization" in this game is a transparent and pathetic schtick. It is literally:
#1 intentionally make an OP character/ character skill
#2 wait till everyone buys or grinds hard to get said OP thing
#3 nerf said OP thing
#4 go back to step #1

I am at day 445+ and I have seen this pathetic **** time and time again.

I don't disagree that this is what has in essence happened, or that this cycle needs to stop, but it is presumptuous that it is intentional. It's possible their metrics are just way off when it comes to balance. Or they're balancing for low level play and not high level. Or for PVE and not PVP. Or people who play test have wildly varying playstyles compared to most. Or...

Not saying any of these are true. And it may very well be intentional. But I haven't seen any text or quotes to substantiate that.

I don't think the OP character creation is intentional. I think they try to create characters with interesting skills, and when you're this many characters in, you have to start getting creative if you want to make the skills seem unique. Balancing this many characters is a hard target to hit on the first try.

I absolutely think there's intent in that cycle, though. The buyback rates after nerfs are wholly in their control, but they've chosen to offer ones that don't come close to making the player whole. Even the new 30-day buyback rule gives you no real value for the covers you've earned, or the ISO you've put in.

After a serious nerf like Spidey, Rags, CMags, Sentry, XForce or 4*Thor, I'd like to see options to (1) sell the character wholesale for maybe 75% of the HP and ISO, as well as (2) delevel the character to strip out the ISO that you've put in, allowing you to reallocate it elsewhere. Allowing respecs of the character would be another way to soften the blow.

Instead, the rebalancing puts the burden of dealing with the developers' error on the players. If the characters ended up perfectly balanced afterwards, maybe it wouldn't be a big deal, but they've overnerfed on many of these revisions. And if they really are well-balanced after the changes, like CMags or Hood, there's no need for the players to use those options. Giving us those options would be a sign that they have faith in their own decisions. The most favorable inference that you can draw from them not offering them is that they don't. At worst, you could draw inferences like the post you responded to.

This isn't a new idea, suggestions like this have been made for as long as this rebalancing has been happening. That it's still an issue, and hasn't been addressed, means they must like it that way. The players' reaction to nerfs is part and parcel of that decision.

cletus1985

itstime1234

Stax the Foyer wrote:

scottee wrote:

Thamanator wrote:

^THIS. None of this is even slightly complicated to understand... the "method of monetization" in this game is a transparent and pathetic schtick. It is literally:
#1 intentionally make an OP character/ character skill
#2 wait till everyone buys or grinds hard to get said OP thing
#3 nerf said OP thing
#4 go back to step #1

I am at day 445+ and I have seen this pathetic **** time and time again.

I don't disagree that this is what has in essence happened, or that this cycle needs to stop, but it is presumptuous that it is intentional. It's possible their metrics are just way off when it comes to balance. Or they're balancing for low level play and not high level. Or for PVE and not PVP. Or people who play test have wildly varying playstyles compared to most. Or...

Not saying any of these are true. And it may very well be intentional. But I haven't seen any text or quotes to substantiate that.

I don't think the OP character creation is intentional. I think they try to create characters with interesting skills, and when you're this many characters in, you have to start getting creative if you want to make the skills seem unique. Balancing this many characters is a hard target to hit on the first try.

I absolutely think there's intent in that cycle, though. The buyback rates after nerfs are wholly in their control, but they've chosen to offer ones that don't come close to making the player whole. Even the new 30-day buyback rule gives you no real value for the covers you've earned, or the ISO you've put in.

After a serious nerf like Spidey, Rags, CMags, Sentry, XForce or 4*Thor, I'd like to see options to (1) sell the character wholesale for maybe 75% of the HP and ISO, as well as (2) delevel the character to strip out the ISO that you've put in, allowing you to reallocate it elsewhere. Allowing respecs of the character would be another way to soften the blow.

Instead, the rebalancing puts the burden of dealing with the developers error on the players. If the characters ended up perfectly balanced afterwards, maybe it wouldn't be a big deal, but they've overnerfed on many of these revisions. And if they really are well-balanced after the changes, like CMags or Hood, there's no need for the players to use those options. Giving us those options would be a sign that they have faith in their own decisions. The most favorable inference that you can draw from them not offering them is that they don't. At worst, you could draw inferences like the post you responded to.

This isn't a new idea, suggestions like this have been made for as long as this rebalancing has been happening. That it's still an issue, and hasn't been addressed, means they must like it that way. The players reaction to nerfs is part and parcel of that decision.

If it's not intentional why don't they put a notice out when they are reviewing a character for a nerf as oppose to when it is finalized. That would save a lot of ppl from spending during that time period.

Also why does the nerf always happen when everyone has a highly covered version of that character. Can they not see how op it is once the first 10% have it. No they wait until the market is saturated and sales are declining on that character.

Before I thought it was truly for the best of the game but since they never do either of the two listed I am much more skeptical that this isn't a cash grab.

Unknown

The South Park model is less cynical than the Demiurge model. Canadians have advancement and balance whereas Demiurge just nerf, make your payment invalid and the loop starts fresh. Demiurge are worse than the Canadian Devil.

Stax the Foyer

itstime1234 wrote:

If it's not intentional why don't they put a notice out when they are reviewing a character for a nerf as oppose to when it is finalized. That would save a lot of ppl from spending during that time period.

Also why does the nerf always happen when everyone has a highly covered version of that character. Can they not see how op it is once the first 10% have it. No they wait until the market is saturated and sales are declining on that character.

Before I thought it was truly for the best of the game but since they never do either of the two listed I am much more skeptical that this isn't a cash grab.

To be clear, I meant that the creation of an OP character isn't intentional. I don't think that they intentionally create characters with the intent of nerfing them later.

That said, for the conspiracy-minded, 4*Thor is probably the best argument. She's self-sustaining, and we could all see how powerful she was going to be as soon as we found out that 5-cover Power Surge created 12 charged tiles. Waiting months to rebalance her, and doing it with a pretty weak explanation of "we undervalued charged tiles" didn't do them any favors when the nerf came around.

scottee

itstime1234 wrote:

If it's not intentional why don't they put a notice out when they are reviewing a character for a nerf as oppose to when it is finalized. That would save a lot of ppl from spending during that time period.

Also why does the nerf always happen when everyone has a highly covered version of that character. Can they not see how op it is once the first 10% have it. No they wait until the market is saturated and sales are declining on that character.

Before I thought it was truly for the best of the game but since they never do either of the two listed I am much more skeptical that this isn't a cash grab.

Back in the day, they used to communicate this a bunch. They told the forums someone like CMags was going to get nerfed. Everyone knew he was OP. But then the nerf didn't come for a long time. Lots of people were caught in between, knowing he led to lots of advancement, but not knowing when the nerf would finally come.

I think they definitely need to communicate head of time, but it's also a hard balance. In software world, they might intend something to be ready for release in 1 month, but it could end up taking 2 or 3. If they tell everyone 1 month, then all hell breaks loose on day 32.

itstime1234

scottee wrote:

itstime1234 wrote:

If it's not intentional why don't they put a notice out when they are reviewing a character for a nerf as oppose to when it is finalized. That would save a lot of ppl from spending during that time period.

Also why does the nerf always happen when everyone has a highly covered version of that character. Can they not see how op it is once the first 10% have it. No they wait until the market is saturated and sales are declining on that character.

Before I thought it was truly for the best of the game but since they never do either of the two listed I am much more skeptical that this isn't a cash grab.

Back in the day, they used to communicate this a bunch. They told the forums someone like CMags was going to get nerfed. Everyone knew he was OP. But then the nerf didn't come for a long time. Lots of people were caught in between, knowing he led to lots of advancement, but not knowing when the nerf would finally come.

I think they definitely need to communicate head of time, but it's also a hard balance. In software world, they might intend something to be ready for release in 1 month, but it could end up taking 2 or 3. If they tell everyone 1 month, then all hell breaks loose on day 32.

No one was complaining about how long the nerf took. They wouldn't even need to give a timeframe just hey this is under review for rebalancing. So this whole notion of saying nothing since they don't know how long the nerf will take is a very lame excuse.

At almost $20 a cover for 4hor and xforce I am pretty sure everyone would much rather know months in advance than late in the game.

Pylgrim

forch wrote:

Constructing a reward structure that forces everyone into Alliances and then making the alliance rewards require massive effort from all players (by creating a feeling that you are doing this for your alliance buddies, not the game) is a fundamentally dishonest action.

Respectfully, I don't understand this point. Alliances exist as a way of forming competitive teams. All multiplayer games have something like this, called guilds, factions, etc. You are supposed to join an alliance that plays at your speed so you'll be comfortable with the amount of effort you can put and not feel like either a traitor or the one doing all the heavy work. You and your alliance members decide what tier of rewards you want and are able to get and work together towards that. NO ONE is forcing you to kill yourselves to attain a reward above your level of commitment. I don't understand why everybody acts as though it was their birthright and portion to get all three covers of a newly-released 4* and accuse Demiurge of villainously having set things to impede players from getting them.

While honest, open and respectful engagement is often an excellent strategy to persuade others, it isn't always effective or appropriate. Would you politely explain to a used car salesman all the reasons why his offer isn't fair or balanced? Not if you wanted to buy a car at a reasonable price.

Er, yes? Used salesman or not, the other person is still a human being and deserves respect and common courtesy. If you find yourself in a situation where you believe that truly cannot discuss matters peaceably and still get your car at a reasonable price, you just leave and find a dealer with whom you you can deal in that way. Or are you telling me that your strategy to deal with him would be to threaten him, try to ruin his reputation and damage his business? If you answer is yes, well that would actually settle the matter on who is in the wrong here.

Hopefully MPQ developers change their course and starting making content that is fun without the grind.

I am having fun. That's why I'm still playing, and you do right to leave if you are not having fun, but it doesn't mean that the absence of fun you feel is universal and even less that it is intentionally created. Yes, sometimes the game feels a bit grindy. What do I do? I put the godtinykitty phone down and stop playing. If that wins me one less cover, so be it! Everybody in my alliance understands this and whenever someone needs a break we just merc him out for the rest of the event and welcome back when they're ready. Do you realise it's not Demiurge the one forcing you to grind but yourself? Your own greed for whatever the rewards are? Rewards are tiered so everybody can play at their pace. Some people have more time to kill and are more resilient against the grindy feeling. Let them take all the rewards. Playing happily at my pace, I'm able to obtain around 75% of the rewards and that's fine by me. Some people only will be able/want to play less than that... well, they better be happy with the rewards tier that their comparatively lesser effort deserves. If you believe that whatever your effort is, you are entitled to all the rewards... then what do the people that can play harder than you get?

Unless the community demands change (in a less than subtle way) it seems very unlikely to happen, which is why the "hate" might actually the best thing that folks can do to improve the game.

Just no. The developers are PEOPLE. They can be spoken to and constantly they demonstrate that they're listening. Another thing is that people more easily pile frustration and whining than praise. People feel entitled to get one additional reward in Ultron that they couldn't get? HAAATE, dozens of bilious threads complaining about the matter and gaining page after page, staying around for weeks. Developers made away with the much hated vaulting, increased token odds, decreased iso costs, gave away 1 extra level worth of iso for every character and a bunch of etc.? A couple rachitic threads that amount to "oh ok that's nice I guess" and then it's back to business with the HAAAAAATE for that friggin' Ultron reward.

What you are suggesting is basically to violently hold the developers' livelihood hostage until they listen to your demands. You yourself say that it is "reasonable" that their decisions are engineered to generate profit. Doesn't that mean that you are demanding of them to incur in losses just so you can get what you believe you deserve?