Rant about the new powered ups

SymmeTrey

I understand the frustration but clearly something had to change.

X-Force and 4hor (and I have both maxed) were light years ahead of every other character and basically invalidated any team other than Featured/XF/4hor. That's not good for the game long term. I'm not sure if this is the best solution or not, but, clearly it's a step in the direction of achieving some kind of balance and variability in PVP. I would expect some tweaks before the new season starts.

Unknown

Wow, I'm actually shocked that people are so pissed about this. I've been secretly wanting something like this for like a year, what's the point in having 40+ characters if the game always devolves to playing as 5 of them?

Are people peeved because they have a level 270 4-star and they can actually lose? As if Hulk/Patch didn't get past that wall already? As if someone else couldn't bring a 4-star to the fight? GET OVER YOURSELVES. You are the same people that are going to moan and groan if say Thanos comes out as a 5-star.

Are you upset because 3*Thor was more useful than 4*Thor? As if he wasn't top 5 ANYWAYS?.

I hope this becomes a status quo, if someone has XF&4hor, it shouldn't make them never have to worry about defense. Hell those people already have the covers anyways. I'd be fine with them peeling the boost back to 270, I just like the idea that I don't "have" to use my XF all the time to compete, I can pull out someone else who I've leveled up and enjoy them.
- Unreall

fmftint

I have issue with moderation of a quote.
... is a commonly accepted way to pare down a quote and is used in editing every day

GrumpySmurf1002

andyc83 wrote:

The rules changing constantly to give the new player an advantage is silly.

This argument always makes me laugh. New players are not the threat in this situation. New players don't have maxed Patch-Loki-Hood-Thor combinations.

Azoic

Lol. You can't see your mates because of MMR, so you can't develop "tactics"? You mean cheesing the system and boosting each other? Yay for the system working. I am happy to see a shakeup in the typical matches. How many little red nodes do I get on my list with xforce on them...was ALL of them. Your tears bring me joy.

Scoregasms

Unreallystic wrote:

Wow, I'm actually shocked that people are so pissed about this. I've been secretly wanting something like this for like a year, what's the point in having 40+ characters if the game always devolves to playing as 5 of them?

Are people peeved because they have a level 270 4-star and they can actually lose? As if Hulk/Patch didn't get past that wall already? As if someone else couldn't bring a 4-star to the fight? GET OVER YOURSELVES. You are the same people that are going to moan and groan if say Thanos comes out as a 5-star.

Are you upset because 3*Thor was more useful than 4*Thor? As if he wasn't top 5 ANYWAYS?.

I hope this becomes a status quo, if someone has XF&4hor, it shouldn't make them never have to worry about defense. Hell those people already have the covers anyways. I'd be fine with them peeling the boost back to 270, I just like the idea that I don't "have" to use my XF all the time to compete, I can pull out someone else who I've leveled up and enjoy them.
- Unreall

It isn't that I'm pissed personally, I just dislike the implementation of this. For someone like myself who wanted to try out a Cage/Fist PVP duo, I simply can't use the characters I actually WANT to play with in PVP. If I want to have any chance of success, I'm forced to select from a list of buffed characters, I dislike having my choice in who I want to play taken away from me. I'm not in a position to have a huge roster of leveled characters, so I have to choose who I want to level for both PVE and PVP purposes. If they are going to do something like this, then they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately so we can all get to choose who we want to use (instead of them indirectly choosing for us), at least then this doesn't lock out folks who haven't spent an entire year building their roster.

Quebbster

Scoregasms wrote:

It isn't that I'm pissed personally, I just dislike the implementation of this. For someone like myself who wanted to try out a Cage/Fist PVP duo, I simply can't use the characters I actually WANT to play with in PVP. If I want to have any chance of success, I'm forced to select from a list of buffed characters, I dislike having my choice in who I want to play taken away from me. I'm not in a position to have a huge roster of leveled characters, so I have to choose who I want to level for both PVE and PVP purposes. If they are going to do something like this, then they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately so we can all get to choose who we want to use (instead of them indirectly choosing for us), at least then this doesn't lock out folks who haven't spent an entire year building their roster.

If the system stays in place I'm sure Cage/Fist will be boosted eventually.

GrumpySmurf1002

Bowgentle wrote:

fmftint wrote:

Its ok, D3 still loves you, but you have to share your toys

Problem is: We went from sharing our toys with the neighbourhood (top 50 alliances) to sharing with the whole country (everyone who has any powered up 3* chars).

Veteran/top 50 players will still have an advantage over the course of a season because the Veteran/top 50 is well more likely to have the top combination in each event.

Guys with Patch/Thor/Loki/Hood/i don't remember who the 5th is because he's been irrelevant are benefiting now, but when, say, Cyclops/Fist/Deadpool/Cage hit, it's mostly a different set of players benefitting for those couple events, while the vets are still good to go.

Unknown

SymmeTrey wrote:

I understand the frustration but clearly something had to change.

X-Force and 4hor (and I have both maxed) were light years ahead of every other character and basically invalidated any team other than Featured/XF/4hor. That's not good for the game long term. I'm not sure if this is the best solution or not, but, clearly it's a step in the direction of achieving some kind of balance and variability in PVP. I would expect some tweaks before the new season starts.

What variability? What PVP are you playing?

Yes, there is balance. BOP also has balance. Sure it's fun at the beginning. Then, the novelty wears off.

The funniest thing is that everyone keeps saying that X-Force/4or dominating was not good for the game. I'm done giving people a free pass with this statement. This statement is a lie that has been passed off as truth for far too long now. And somewhere along the way, after reading this lie over and over again, the developers accepted it to be the truth as well.

The real truth is that 4*'s are supposed to be the most powerful characters in the game. X-Force and 4or are 4*'s. They are supposed to be better than any 1*, 2*, or 3*. And yes, in any rankings of characters, there's going to be a 1st and a 2nd. The real diversity problem was that there were not viable other 4* alternatives to those two in the 4* tier. The reason was there was no Ares, Hulk, Cage, Fist, Magneto, etc. type characters at the 4* tier yet. Over time, there would have been variety on the 4* tier.

The real truth is that not having an "end game" is not good for the game. Players do no play the game to play the same PVE's over and over. They do not play the game simply so they can play PVP for covers they do not need. The way this game made players feel like they were making progress (and not just wasting their time playing the game) was the promise of a 4* tier of characters that would be significantly more powerful and better than 3*'s.

P.S. If you do not level your characters because you are afraid of having to play real scaling in PVE like the rest of the playerbase, you do not get a say in PVP. I do not care if you cannot beat X-Force or Hood. You are the reason that you cannot compete in PVP. I really wish MPQ would stop listening to you. You obviously only try to game the system. When you decide you want to play the same game as everyone, you can start having a say.

Trisul

The_Valeyard wrote:

The real diversity problem was that there were not viable other 4* alternatives to those two in the 4* tier.

I'm highlighting this statement as completely true, and we are all in agreement that more viable 4*s would hopefully increase variety at the top tier.

However I disagree with your point about XF/4hor dominating. You didn't give any real reason why one pair dominating is GOOD for the game.

Here's why I think a single pair dominating is NOT good for the game:
- It makes all other PvP pairs irrelevant. When Sentry/Hood ruled the roost, you had a gigantic disadvantage in every single PvP if you didn't have them. Try to hop with a different team? Get sniped by Sentry/Hood.
- It gets boring for players. If you face a wall of the same characters, it leads to every battle feeling very much the same.
- It lessens the incentive for horizontal progression, since a maxed LThor vs underleveled LThor would be relevant maybe one PvP a month.

Here's why I think the XF/4hor team specifically dominating was not good for the game:
- They trivialized PvE. 300+ PvE nodes are ridiculously easy due to their power, and it screws up all the weird scaling mechanisms Demiurge has in place.
- They trivialized PvP. Fastest, most reliable, durable, health-pack-conservative team. <-- there should be some tradeoffs here
- Echoes the last two points, but they basically made the game WAY too easy. Maybe some people like coasting to easy rewards (I certainly do), but that's not necessarily a good thing.

Unknown

Scoregasms wrote:

It isn't that I'm pissed personally, I just dislike the implementation of this. For someone like myself who wanted to try out a Cage/Fist PVP duo, I simply can't use the characters I actually WANT to play with in PVP. If I want to have any chance of success, I'm forced to select from a list of buffed characters, I dislike having my choice in who I want to play taken away from me. I'm not in a position to have a huge roster of leveled characters, so I have to choose who I want to level for both PVE and PVP purposes. If they are going to do something like this, then they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately so we can all get to choose who we want to use (instead of them indirectly choosing for us), at least then this doesn't lock out folks who haven't spent an entire year building their roster.

I don't get it: Why can't you play with Cage/Fist? PVP isn't a heroic and people use non-buffed characters in PVE all the time. Why are you artificially locking yourself out from playing these characters up until say 700 or so? I also don't get how this differs from XThor or Patch/Hulk. You're going to have to switch to your A-team at some point to compete with the other A-teams.

they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately

What the tiny kitty does that even mean? Please explain what would be 'appropriate'.

fmftint

daibar wrote:

Scoregasms wrote:

It isn't that I'm pissed personally, I just dislike the implementation of this. For someone like myself who wanted to try out a Cage/Fist PVP duo, I simply can't use the characters I actually WANT to play with in PVP. If I want to have any chance of success, I'm forced to select from a list of buffed characters, I dislike having my choice in who I want to play taken away from me. I'm not in a position to have a huge roster of leveled characters, so I have to choose who I want to level for both PVE and PVP purposes. If they are going to do something like this, then they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately so we can all get to choose who we want to use (instead of them indirectly choosing for us), at least then this doesn't lock out folks who haven't spent an entire year building their roster.

I don't get it: Why can't you play with Cage/Fist? PVP isn't a heroic and people use non-buffed characters in PVE all the time. Why are you artificially locking yourself out from playing these characters up until say 700 or so? I also don't get how this differs from XThor or Patch/Hulk. You're going to have to switch to your A-team at some point to compete with the other A-teams.

they should've just buffed everyone up appropriately

What the tiny kitty does that even mean? Please explain what would be 'appropriate'.

more importantly, what kind of data would that have provided? if everyone is boosted, no one is. they are trying to see what it takes for more players to be competitive. again this is a test and the boost % is not final

Unknown

I like the freshness they brought into the game now. Having extra buffed characters to play with definitely killed the monotony of constantly playing against the same teams every event and whoever the featured character was. With them changing around the buffed characters from week to week will create variety and the wanting to "dust" off the old 3* and 2* sitting in your rosters. So yeah the noobs win with getting T4or nerfed, but us vets have the skills (and rosters) to take out any team we need to get the high scores we always strive for. It hasnt even been a week since they introduced this new play structure, so maybe give a chance and try and have some fun with it. It definitely has taken some getting used to, but its definitely a breath of fresh air in a getting stale game.

Unknown

So, the gist of the OP is that since GT/XF isn't all-powerful and some actual gameplay and possibly strategy is involved, they want to quit?

Arondite

The game has changed from the "same old same old" team comp to new comps (with the old comp still being competitive)
The pool of competitive players has increased
There's more competition at the top end
Top end play is more tumultuous with more changes and rapid advancements and falls than ever before
Coordinated hops for free and guaranteed points and easy bracket tops are still possible but more difficult


How boring

Unknown

Yeah, as a veteran (I'm two days off of the last daily reward, and that's only 'cause I missed two days playing), I think this change is fantastic. I have a deep roster, and now having a deep roster actually matters in PvP. I like playing with a variety of teams, and before now the only time that happened was when I was playing PvE (and then it was really only an option until I inevitably got stuck with a wall of 395 level enemies). Plenty of characters who would otherwise be irrelevant are going to be relevant now, and that's awesome for people who've been playing for a long time.

The problem with it making 4* characters less valuable is only a problem because the 4* tier is so jacked up. (I'm not saying anything new here, so don't think that I think I'm treading new ground.) Having a maxed X-Force is fantastic, and when it's his turn to be buffed he'll dominate. Fury has been pretty awesome in his near-400 level state. But when you buff someone who is terrible, they don't suddenly become awesome. They just become slightly less terrible. So having a deep roster of 4* characters doesn't give you the same advantage in this system that having a deep roster of 3* characters does. The fix for this is a fix the developers are going to need to implement one way or another: make the 4* tier consistent and powerful. Once that happens, this series of rotating buffs will do a lot to give us diversity at all levels of play.

Complaining that this somehow undercuts the efforts of veterans is stupid. It undercuts the efforts of people who poured all of their resources into exactly two characters over the past 6 months or so.

cletus1985

The_Valeyard wrote:

P.S. If you do not level your characters because you are afraid of having to play real scaling in PVE like the rest of the playerbase, you do not get a say in PVP. I do not care if you cannot beat X-Force or Hood. You are the reason that you cannot compete in PVP. I really wish MPQ would stop listening to you. You obviously only try to game the system. When you decide you want to play the same game as everyone, you can start having a say.

/\/\ THIS x 1000/\/\ I certainly don't agree with everything in your post, but this is probably the most annoying thing I come across in the forums. People **** their rosters for PvE and then act like the fact they can't compete in PvP is relevant and needs to be fixed? I'm only partially through the 3* transition, but I don't have any issues in PvP because I'm leveling my 3* as I go and I hit reasonable scores for PvP and I can hit top 10 PvE if I really put in the effort. So if you choose to **** your roster, STOP WHINING!!!!, it's your own fault.

Unknown

I don't see why new players should have easier time than the rest. When I started playing 15 months ago (Christmas 2013) I had to go through the progression cycle as everyone else had to do. 1*->2*->3*->4* and it was a rewarding experience. The game canceled the transition 1*->2* after it started giving 2* covers as reward for regular matches, so, obviously, at some point the player base who was competing for 3* covers grew too much. Apparently, the devs decided at that point to make it possible for new players to jump to 2*->4* transition. I remember 2* rosters placing consistently in top 10-25 when I was struggling with my Patch/Punisher/OBW team for a top 25-50. If I remember correctly, this change and the introduction of "true" healing was the reason I left the game 9 months ago. Now, there are too many players with 3* rosters who can't make the transition to 4* because the 4* covers are too rare and it seems the devs decided to level the playing field once more, negating the progress of many players.

I am not against a mini buff to few non-featured characters, but this can't bring them higher than the next tier. It's sad to see that even with this change the devs overdid it, as is the case with several character nerfs. If you want to buff some characters give them a +50% buff to their levels. Also, keep the number of the buffed characters low (3-4 each week) because if you buff half the 3* roster, then the significance of roster diversity is minimized.

Personally, I never had a problem with the previous system. Yes, team variety was somewhat low, mostly because half the characters in the game are almost unplayable and 1/4 of them is mediocre when compared with others, but the game didn't feel as broken as it feels now. I was planning to join just before the HT ends, as I usually do, and after I got to a nice and round 400 I left because I was sick fighting against LThor/Patch/Loki/Hood. Healing packs were running low as well and although I was #11 at that point, I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

The good news is that yesterday I had some free time to try Warframe again. They have added so much since I last played and it's super fun. I almost forgot to play DDQ. Still collectiong the tokens. I hope they add IF soon, because I don't know for how long I'm going to keep checking for him. DDQ is the only thing I played this week, but even this is getting boring with the same missions again and again.

Vhailorx

I think it is possible to advance several constructive arguments against this new boosted character system, but I don't think OP's particular criticism is particularly valid. OP seems to suggest that this new system is bad because it is harder for OP to dominate PVP. OP's justification for that statement seems to be that OP has spent lots of time/money/effort acquiring thorverine.

Just to point out a couple of problems with this argument:

(1) It's not clear that 4*s in general, or 2 very powerful 4*s in particular, are intended to dominate the pvp game, to the contrary the devs seem to want 4*s to be like slightly better 3*s, rather than a whole new world of game play a la the current 2* --> 3*; and
(2) It's not clear to me that the game is better off if the top X% of players have a permanent, dominant position in pvp (though I readily admit that it would also not be good for the game if the top X% veterans were placed at a significant, permanent disadvantage relative to new players)

Personally, I think that the PVP game needed change. Thorverine was too dominant, which led to a whole host of problem, including a rich-get-richer system (only way to succeed is already have the fruits of success), boring play experience (oh look, another thorverine team!), a growing stable of "legendary" characters that are basically unplayable (why play Elektra or Starlord when they are, in all respects, worse than thorverine, or even iron fist/xforce).

I am not convinced that this new character boosting scheme is an appropriate solution, but I think it's a worthy experiment. Ideally, I would like to have seen it NOT occur at the same time as the 4* thor nerf. It's much harder to evaluate why the pvp meta is changing when two significant new changes are implemented at the same time.

In terms of evaluating this experiment, I want to see how this boosting system works with a different set of boosted characters; as many other have pointed out, this initial set of boosts includes many very good 3*s that also play very well with each other. What will happen when the boosted characters are moStorm, Daredevil, Beast, Doc Oc, and Colossus?

Trisul

Moon 17 wrote:

Complaining that this somehow undercuts the efforts of veterans is stupid. It undercuts the efforts of people who poured all of their resources into exactly two characters over the past 6 months or so.

Yeah, this change screws me pretty hard (invested solely into XF/4hor for PvP), but I think it's a good change for the game. They just need to tweak the 4* buff to be more significant (or maybe 3* buff to be slightly less) and they're pretty close.