Winfinite Users - please respond within!

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  • KrazyKeylime
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    Lerysh wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    And especially since people are saying this doesn't matter in PVP, who cares? PVE turns into kill the enemy in 2 turns or get 1 shot anyway. We NEED 'degenerate' combos in PVE because PVE IS DEGENERATE!

    This is basically the reason why I thought it would never get changed. 395 scaling intially went in to combat Spiderman and C.Mags infinite turn combos. You kill stuff without taking any damage, have some nice fat 395 HP walls to climb. Except then they fixed Spiderman, and then they fixed C.Mags, and yet the scaling remains. How exactly do you expect us to beat an Ares/Sniper/Sniper node by turn 5 without some kind of broken combo mechanic?
    with 4thor...oh nevermind
  • turul wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    turul wrote:
    There are plenty of storm based, and other infinity teams though.
    Winfinite just had the most board control/most quick

    what are other infinite teams? You can also PM me...I need another so I can do Gauntlet....

    AnyStorm / AnyThor / Loki
    Storm3 / Loki / Mistique
    AnyStorm / GSBW / *
    Storm2 / NewRagnarok / Loki
    NewRags / Mystique / Loki
    Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags
    Storm / Cyclops / NewRags

    lesser infinites can be made with IW

    I think I see what you're saying...but my Loki doesn't have 5 purpleflag.png and my GSBW is missing purpleflag.pngs. I'll give it a try but I think new Rag/2*Mag will be pretty good.
  • Zen808
    Zen808 Posts: 260
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    Edit: Oops, you're totally right raisinbman. I was thinking of a different Winfinite post when I snarked.

    To answer the OP, the people who use Winfinite do it because it's broken and performance enhancing. The people who don't, don't because it's boring.

    PVE is actually not very competitive, outside of Top 20, or maybe Top 50 for desired characters. People will just sort of naturally sift into the other Tiers, based on how much free time they have to play. There's really no need to do something mind-numbing to move from position #125, up to #75. So actual usage will be low. That doesn't mean that it's not a powerful combination, just that the structure of the game does not generally reward its usage.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
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    turul wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    turul wrote:
    There are plenty of storm based, and other infinity teams though.
    Winfinite just had the most board control/most quick

    what are other infinite teams? You can also PM me...I need another so I can do Gauntlet....

    AnyStorm / AnyThor / Loki
    Storm3 / Loki / Mistique
    AnyStorm / GSBW / *
    Storm2 / NewRagnarok / Loki
    NewRags / Mystique / Loki
    Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags
    Storm / Cyclops / NewRags

    lesser infinites can be made with IW

    After some reflection, I admit that these are nice ability chains, but they seem very expensive to start and not entirely self-sustaining. But your beautiful simulator (I just found it) does make a case for new combos that don't require human-like tile placement to work. (I wonder, will people gravitate to combos that work on average, but fail even just 10% of the time?) Still, the things that get nerfed are so obvious and so reliable that it's amazing that they weren't picked up with minimal playtesting: like cMags 5 bluetile.png AP ability that can earn 5 bluetile.png AP on most boards. (I'm sorry, that one's obvious even on paper). Winfinite with Mystique/mnMags/Bullseye is just about as reliable. Prof X's blueflag.png AP generation just kills me, because the infinite loop is so obvious! At this rate, I'm astonished that we haven't seen a purple tile generator yet...

    Of your list, I like "Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags" the best, but still I'm not convinced that you won't run out of purpletile.png fuel eventually. Even then, I think you will want 30 greentile.png AP to get the ball rolling and that might just make it to much effort for anything beyond a long survival node.
  • After some reflection, I admit that these are nice ability chains, but they seem very expensive to start and not entirely self-sustaining. But your beautiful simulator (I just found it) does make a case for new combos that don't require human-like tile placement to work. (I wonder, will people gravitate to combos that work on average, but fail even just 10% of the time?) Still, the things that get nerfed are so obvious and so reliable that it's amazing that they weren't picked up with minimal playtesting: like cMags 5 bluetile.png AP ability that can earn 5 bluetile.png AP on most boards. (I'm sorry, that one's obvious even on paper). Winfinite with Mystique/mnMags/Bullseye is just about as reliable. Prof X's blueflag.png AP generation just kills me, because the infinite loop is so obvious! At this rate, I'm astonished that we haven't seen a purple tile generator yet...

    Of your list, I like "Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags" the best, but still I'm not convinced that you won't run out of purpletile.png fuel eventually. Even then, I think you will want 30 greentile.png AP to get the ball rolling and that might just make it to much effort for anything beyond a long survival node.

    They aren't too bad if you won't immediately die(the enemy is too high level/has too cheap abilities) and have a damage outlet. Of course, I can't fully test the Rag/Mystique/3*BW/Cyclops teams but the Thor + friend teams seem solid. It's very slow, but we're gonna need something new for Gauntlet, so whatever it is I'll take it!
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,609 Chairperson of the Boards
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    turul wrote:

    AnyStorm / AnyThor / Loki
    Storm3 / Loki / Mistique
    AnyStorm / GSBW / *
    Storm2 / NewRagnarok / Loki
    NewRags / Mystique / Loki
    Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags
    Storm / Cyclops / NewRags

    lesser infinites can be made with IW

    The main difference is Mystique/MNM was 100% win rate for me. I think the other people saying it isn't, are just using it wrong. I've never lost a battle with it. Taking down 50k hp nodes is completely normal. I literally never lost a match with it.

    How? Boost purp/blue. Then if the board is not favorable to start, use your other match-3 skills. Deny colors the AI needs, don't leave a weak player in front. Do stuff to survive, until the purple or blue matches become available. I think people have brain farts, when I've literally beaten every single PVE node that I've needed to with it.

    That's the difference between Winfinite and the above combos. The above combos are not 100% chains. You often have to a turn back to the AI. With Winfinite, you never have to.

    The next closest that I used was old Rags, Loki, 3Storm. But it wasn't 100% like Winfinite, and took more to get started. And it was much slower. I still play around with 3Thor, Loki, 3Storm, which is more powerful, but certainly less reliable.
  • scottee wrote:
    turul wrote:

    AnyStorm / AnyThor / Loki
    Storm3 / Loki / Mistique
    AnyStorm / GSBW / *
    Storm2 / NewRagnarok / Loki
    NewRags / Mystique / Loki
    Storm2 / NewMagneto2 / Rags
    Storm / Cyclops / NewRags

    lesser infinites can be made with IW

    The main difference is Mystique/MNM was 100% win rate for me. I think the other people saying it isn't, are just using it wrong. I've never lost a battle with it. Taking down 50k hp nodes is completely normal. I literally never lost a match with it.

    How? Boost purp/blue. Then if the board is not favorable to start, use your other match-3 skills. Deny colors the AI needs, don't leave a weak player in front. Do stuff to survive, until the purple or blue matches become available. I think people have brain farts, when I've literally beaten every single PVE node that I've needed to with it.

    That's the difference between Winfinite and the above combos. The above combos are not 100% chains. You often have to a turn back to the AI. With Winfinite, you never have to.

    The next closest that I used was old Rags, Loki, 3Storm. But it wasn't 100% like Winfinite, and took more to get started. And it was much slower. I still play around with 3Thor, Loki, 3Storm, which is more powerful, but certainly less reliable.

    It is most definitely not 100%. Even with boosts. Any goon fed Ares node can tell you, denying colors doesn't work, putting your big tank out front only works for so long, and if you can't get 18 bluetile.png relatively quickly you are heading for a loss.

    It's great that you never lost with it, but it is for sure beatable.
  • Square
    Square Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
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    I used it in the Gauntlet when I got stuck. It was slow and dull, but magnificent to have an infinite one term. Give the pair a boost. and you had a 70/30 chance of a win. I would have rathered that only one of the two were nerfed, but I can't deny the pair were broken together.
  • Unknown
    edited March 2015
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    In response to OP:
    I am in agreement with everyone else - the combo was worthless in PVP, being to slow and squishy.

    In PVE, however, it was a God-send! When A,B,C&D teams bit the dust to ridiculous +300 scaled nodes. This winfinate combo got you through - you could actually complete that impossible node!
    It was took all day to clear 30,000 hit points and one false move would be a team-wipe.

    (I actually bought 3 mystique covers to do it thinking it was a worthy investment; if it meant it could complete Gauntlet events. But after these brutal nerfs, I think I'd be crazy to gamble my money again.)
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Lerysh wrote:
    It is most definitely not 100%. Even with boosts.
    You're 100% right. I failed twice in a row on an Ares node, and decided I didn't need any more aggravation. And I'm in no mood for anyone to tell me it must've been my fault.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,609 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I completely agree that the nerf hurts transition players by breaking the MMags/CStorm combo. While it has limited uses in PVP, as you should switch to OBW and Ares/Thor at higher point totals, it absolutely smashes in PVE.

    MMags may end up being equally as powerful, or even more powerful, as an individual hero. But the fact is that everyone was using him to combo with someone else. So it's definitely a nerf to transitioners in that respect.
  • ronin_san
    ronin_san Posts: 980 Critical Contributor
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    I'm a contrarian on the move for 2* players, I think they will actually be helped by the Magneto change. Going from 5 blue to 3 blue will mean the team will likely need to make only one more blue match to get a Wind Storm, and can still trigger Speed Shot pretty easily. Getting the extra red however will make Hawkeye's and Magneto's reds that much easier, and they are both pretty good 2* powers. You just have to have the patience to not use them until the board doesn't have any red matches sitting there so your countdowns survive.

    But the thing is...Mag is very bad without purpleflag.png. His blue is laughable, and his red is kinda...sorta..conditional.

    I see him being relegated to red and blue generation. He works with Ares / Wolverine / Thor as a red generator. The problem it, it's random red generation. I wish they popped in proximity to the placed blues or on team-up tiles.
  • scottee wrote:
    I completely agree that the nerf hurts transition players by breaking the MMags/CStorm combo. While it has limited uses in PVP, as you should switch to OBW and Ares/Thor at higher point totals, it absolutely smashes in PVE.

    MMags may end up being equally as powerful, or even more powerful, as an individual hero. But the fact is that everyone was using him to combo with someone else. So it's definitely a nerf to transitioners in that respect.

    2*Mag can't be usable on his own unless he gets his blueflag.pngredflag.png changed.

    I think Kaze Koichi summarizes it well here:
    Rebalancing characters is a nessesary thing in any competive game. Without proper balancing we'll have one winning combinaton of characters, and those that have them automatically win, while those that don't have them have no chance to compete. So I agree that nerf is needed when nerf is needed. That's logical. But...

    BUT!

    What a hell is with 2* Magneto nerf? Nerfing 2* seems low blow. It hurts mostly people that gather 2* or transiton from 2* to 3*, making more of them to leave the game before they get into 3* group. I left 2* era behind, but I still feel for everyone that stuck at that point right now. And am I wrong to assume that 2* people rarely buy paid content then 3* and 4* because they doesn't have a solid roster that can be improved by such purchase yet? That people are less likely to pay if they spent less time and efford on the game?

    If someone is convinced, that it is not a nerf, let's look at 2* Mag(MN) closely.
    What does Mag worth by himself? Not much. He has low HP, so he shouldn't tank unless he is protecting someone even more squishy (Storm, OBW). His blueflag.png is complete garbage, redflag.png is better but not that good: there are different ways countdowns can be coutered, especially if red is not maxed. So using purpleflag.png to feed Mag himself is useless. Mag's true purpose is combination play, feeding someone else.
    So instead of good purpleflag.png to blueflag.png we shall have mediocre purpleflag.png to blueflag.png & redflag.png Let's see how it affects blueflag.png first. Gathering blue becames slower. Also, not on every board 3 tiles can make a match 5 on spot, so when you collect enough purple there can be a good reason to delay using it. Especially if you use 2* Hawkeye. So blue suffers greatly.
    But maybe we can compensate with redflag.png ? There are some red falling. Note, interfearing with the board we carefully planned by placing blue, so it's a con, but still, can we get use of that? Who in pure 2* roster have good red?
    1) Wolwerine. His red is great, but it's also cost a lot, in combination with Mag, Wolwe and some blue user both are going to get their color slow.
    2) Thor. His redflag.png is quick, but it then needed to be converted into yellowflag.png , and then into greenflag.png . And if you don't have enough greenflag.png at the end of this combo, you need to do it again, replacing already placed tiles with redflag.png & blueflag.png again. Doable, but not without flaws.
    3) Hawkeye. He use both blueflag.png & redflag.png , but as I stated before a combination with his purpleflag.png is nerfed.

    Everyone else 2*'s redflag.png is useless.

    My verdict: it's much easy to concentrate on getting primary colors for such characters then gather purpleflag.png for Mag. It's more useful to replace Mag with someone that can fight on their own.

    And I know what you are thinking: are you married, Kaze? Not yet, but let's talk about "winfinite combo" first, ignoring my confusion on how you can call "infinite" something that relay on chance of getting nessesary color (50% for first round, 25% for first and second together, and so on...) Of course any infinites should be prevented. But, as some people here already pointed, there is much better solution: to prevent Mistique/Magneto infinite you can simply change Mistique's blueflag.png to other color that is not greenflag.png And problem solved.

    At the end I want to ask: if Mag gets his nerf, who is left for 2* players to play with? Mag is the only 2* that can change colors (except miss Marvel, but she need you to have a proper team-up to work). Here is a list of 2* characters that I recomend to not collect due to their uselessness:
    Bagman
    Bulseye
    Captain America
    Moonstone
    Johny Storm
    And now Magneto joins this team (dragging Hawkeye with him). Welcome to die, Magneto, because you'll die soon.

    Can we get to a new low? Who is going to be nerfed next? 1*? Bagman?
  • Xenoberyll
    Xenoberyll Posts: 647 Critical Contributor
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    I didn't think it's op and it's not boring either. It's a funny reasoning for the developers to nerf something because "boring" anyway. I thought the players decide what they like to play icon_rolleyes.gif. Nobody is forced to play the combo except by the OP scaling in PVE where match damage alone can threaten to kill the fragile duo on a bad board. Makes me wonder what they deem "boring" next.
  • Xenoberyll wrote:
    I didn't think it's op and it's not boring either. It's a funny reasoning for the developers to nerf something because "boring" anyway. I thought the players decide what they like to play icon_rolleyes.gif. Nobody is forced to play the combo except by the OP scaling in PVE where match damage alone can threaten to kill the fragile duo on a bad board. Makes me wonder what they deem "boring" next.

    That gives me an idea:

    Fighting level 395 goons is boring(and time consuming)

    Getting 2 covers(progression + final reward) for a 7 day PVE is boring

    Opening tokens with REALLY BAD chances at any 3*/4* is boring

    New Magneto is boring

    Scaling past my characters is boring

    X-force not being nerfed yet but Thor being nerfed is boring

    Ragnarok's buffs are boring

    Not being able to get past the 3* transition properly for 248 days is boring

    And Juggernaut is boring to fight





    ...They have to change it now since I said it's boring right!?!?!?!?
  • It probably got boring to the dev because he was probably using it every match to defeat everyone. Magstique battles can be slow and tedious so if people are 'forced' to use it because they want to win I can see why that'd be a problem. Dev's problem might boil down to roster slots?
  • Nooneelsesname
    Nooneelsesname Posts: 124 Tile Toppler
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    Magstique was not broken, boring or overpowered. It was probably the most fun I've had with the game.

    The characters were squishy so grinds were scary. It also took a lot of thought to maximize, so it was slow. It was super fun to realize that the best third was 0/5 Bullseye. Every match against a super scaled node became am I going to be able to make my two matches that actually give me a chance of winning before Ares/Daken/anyone one shots me. It was great.

    Magxtique is super broken and there would be no reason to use any other PvE team on any node ever. Even with Prof X 2/2/1 and min level.

    Wish they would have left Mags alone and just changed Mystique. Hopefully when 2* Cyclops comes out (he has to be coming, look at the 3* icon) he'll enable some combos for the 2* transitioners again.
  • PeterGibbons316
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    Lerysh wrote:

    It is most definitely not 100%. Even with boosts. Any goon fed Ares node can tell you, denying colors doesn't work, putting your big tank out front only works for so long, and if you can't get 18 bluetile.png relatively quickly you are heading for a loss.

    It's great that you never lost with it, but it is for sure beatable.

    It is awfully damn close to 100% with a blue+purple and all color boosts. You need some REALLY bad luck (or REALLY poor matching) to not win with that. You still need to use your basic matching skills, and place your blue tile to help manipulate the board into creating critical tiles from other color matches as well.

    It will be harder to use with the changes, but honestly I don't think the nerf will completely kill winfinite. I've had some success with it in PvP. I've used it to grab mega points from a 270 XThor team before a quick win and shield. But I'm talking about trying to get from 500-600 points. It definitely becomes less viable at higher level PvP.
  • I'll admit to using some winfinite. My usual play style is a very short chunk in the morning before work, and then some more in the evening. Winfinite usually came out when I was out of healthpacks and my usual teams were all dead/dying. So underleveled mags and mystique would try to secure a few more PVE nodes before I was forced to stop because everyone was dead. Mystique only has 4 covers and is at level 90 so they eventually also succomed to an errant cascade or enemy power going off. My version hardly seemed infinite but could add just a few extra wins onto the pile.
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
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    All the 3 and 4 star players say this is overpowered, but it is not completely overpowered. Most of us 2-->3 star transitioners are relying heavily of 2 star characters. I have almost every character and have have 3stars that are pretty well covered (but not optimally except for hulk and gsbw) but all level 100. None of them do more than 1500 damage at any given point, but I was routinely fighting level 120+ who would start doing 1500k damage within 3 turns which starts downing mag, 2star storm and level 100 mystique really quickly. Now I did not like using the stormneto much, but I did like using the magstique for my dpq because it was sustainable for 4 separate waves with overpowered characters to mine (the high level 3 star didn't need to worry about this because their characters could sustain some damage while a maxed 2 star with level 100 mystique would get one shot down). Also, 2 to 3 star transitioners may have a lot of characters, but most of them were undercovered to use and that meant you had only 6-9 characters that you could reasonably use in pve. When you have to fight through 20 nodes in some subs, that is not sustainable. Even 10 nodes will probably down 3-5 (which would take forever to heal since ares and 2star thor take almost 5 hours to heal if they were downed). So yes stormneto may be OP, but it was all us 2 star transitioners had for crazy scaled goon nodes (or nodes where they took our best characters like ares, daken, moonstone). Give the 2stars something, because if they don't have it and can't be competitive in pve, they will QUIT and then this game can have only XF walls from point 1.