For those upset over the nerfs

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

Perhaps, but in the most recent featured 3* Thor event, when he is boosted close to, but still under 4*s maximum level his yellow did 3.7k(ish) damage, and green did 3.6k ish damage (x2 to the main target). This equaled out to around 18k damage across the team. This is crazy.

Despite that, even if we compare the damage he can do across typical 3* team based on a %, it is pretty devastating, so I don't think the scaling would be that bad. He would still be more damage by far and above (like i said) than 4* Thor even if he did half that damage boosted. Granted, there is a stun to take into account, but I seriously doubt that scaling would remove half of the damage.

Purple is great, 4* Thor covered blue and red and Star Lord covers Purple and Red for damage.

That's all irrelevant because that isn't how 4* level scaling works AT ALL. You do not get all that extra damage from levels, all you are getting is a tiny bit of damage and some health past a certain point. My point is saying they are level 270 so OBVIOUSLY better than 3*s is incorrect. I can't remember the exact numbers (and uninstalled the game so can't check) but I remember looking at my fully covered level 166 Fury (so EXACT same level as a maxed 3*) and calculating he didn't gain a whole lot in the way of damage for the next 104 levels which use a metric on of ISO, so I didn't bother levelling him any further.

When 3*s are boosted for PvP (or PvE) they still scale as 3*s through all those extra levels (well apart from the tapering off of extra match damage they introduced a while ago to make them go more like 4*s in that respect). You'll notice your 3*s gain damage in abilities fairly uniformally as they level all the way to max.... 4*s do not.

darkmagearcanis

MikeHock wrote:

darkmagearcanis wrote:

After reading some of the comments in the post vote section. I would have to disagree with this comment:

simonsez » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:03 am-1
Comment:
Calling these characters "still great" sounds just as foolish as when the devs said "Spidey will still be one of your best characters"

Spidey is still one of my top characters that I use. While he has become more situational in how I use him, he still gets used a lot.

Also, Everyone makes the character balance seem like the devs completely destroyed the game. So you now have to use other characters in your roster. Big whoop. Does your roster only consists of 4* Thor and 4* Wolvie? Did you honestly expect to only play with these 2 characters the rest of the time that you play MPQ. Sounds boring to me. Changes like this actually bring out the creativity in people to find better unknown combos on their own instead of what they find online and then invest all of their time and ISO into.

How often do you use his Yellow power?

I have a fully covered, level 150something Spidey and rarely use him... but when I do, it is mostly for his protect tiles.

Actually pretty often. My Spidey is 5/5/3. For me the Protect tiles are a bonus.

Phaserhawk

It's Whack-a-Mole.

You pop down 1 or 2 characters and 2 or 3 show up. The 4hor nerf sucks, I agree with the nerf,
I would agree more if there was a guarentee that either

A. There are some more charged tile creators coming very, very soon, we needed to prempt, trust us she isn't losing power or

B. We will watch her over the next 60 days, if the numbers are lower than we predicted, we will buff her blue to make 6 or 7.

Either one of those I woudl be cool with, I'm just hoping without them saying that it's one or both of those.

However, someone else is going to take her place, so I guess it's wait and see.

darkmagearcanis

EpicBeastmode wrote:

darkmagearcanis wrote:

After reading some of the comments in the post vote section. I would have to disagree with this comment:

simonsez » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:03 am-1
Comment:
Calling these characters "still great" sounds just as foolish as when the devs said "Spidey will still be one of your best characters"

Spidey is still one of my top characters that I use. While he has become more situational in how I use him, he still gets used a lot.

Also, Everyone makes the character balance seem like the devs completely destroyed the game. So you now have to use other characters in your roster. Big whoop. Does your roster only consists of 4* Thor and 4* Wolvie? Did you honestly expect to only play with these 2 characters the rest of the time that you play MPQ. Sounds boring to me. Changes like this actually bring out the creativity in people to find better unknown combos on their own instead of what they find online and then invest all of their time and ISO into.

When people spend months and countless events, time and in some cases money to get to the current games highest attainable level...those two characters...and they pull the rug out from you...yeah...I can see why people would be mad. And maybe they are waiting to play with more diverse four stars instead of watching their 4 stars becoming nothing more then suped up 3 stars. and maybe they have already played to death all of those three stars getting to the four star level. I get that you don't get it because you seem unable to empathize with the people in this situation but maybe a lot of people have already moved past the minor leagues...maybe...ya know...

In what way did they pull the rug out from under you. Do you still have the characters? Could the same results with 4Thor still be achieved with the nerf bat? Most likely, but I can see that it will be slower which is the whole point of the nerf. Did you still reach the highest attainable level?

I am able to empathize with the ones that are upset, as this is not the first time they have done this. I would know since I was in this situation from another character re-balancing, but I learned it is obviously clear that D3/Devs are not able to learn from their own mistakes, so it falls on the player to learn from D3/Devs inability to create a fully balanced game from the start and not put all of their eggs in one basket.

The biggest issue is not the time that people put into the game, but the money they invested into it. If D3/Devs refunded the full amount of HP that was put into the character to buy covers and took back the same amount of covers that was purchased. Then I would see no issue.

The only understanding that should be made (again) from this re-balancing is that no character is safe from the nerf bat. Save your money. The game is F2P for a reason.

One thing that I agree on is that this entire re-balancing should have never happened as their are other much much much bigger concerns that affect the players in that of Scaling and Roster Slots.

Polares

Phaserhawk wrote:

It's Whack-a-Mole.

You pop down 1 or 2 characters and 2 or 3 show up. The 4hor nerf sucks, I agree with the nerf,
I would agree more if there was a guarentee that either

A. There are some more charged tile creators coming very, very soon, we needed to prempt, trust us she isn't losing power or

B. We will watch her over the next 60 days, if the numbers are lower than we predicted, we will buff her blue to make 6 or 7.

Either one of those I woudl be cool with, I'm just hoping without them saying that it's one or both of those.

However, someone else is going to take her place, so I guess it's wait and see.

But it is a TERRIBLE decision to nerf a char just because of A), you are telling me that sounds fair to you that you need to nerf a char that it is perfectly fine because of a future char that interacts in a bad way with the char everybody has? I think it does way more sense to change the unreleased char than the one everybody has, and has put money and work into him.

And then of course, there is nerfing and over nerfing... She could still be a good char generating 7 or 8 power tiles.

PS: And why the **** they changed the stunned turns from 4 to 3 ?!?!?!? The problem was that she made too much charged tiles wasn't it?

orionpeace

wirius wrote:

DrStrange-616 wrote:

I see Miles took the time to upvote this thread today and yet, has he or any other dev responded to any of the concerns?

To the OP, I get what you're saying, but it does feel a little patronizing.

My apologies if it came off that way Dr. Strange. Sometimes when people are angry, they don't think straight, and only think of themselves. Justified anger is good, but this is a reminder that anger to the point of raging at D3, threatening them with refund requests etc., isn't really smart or noble in any way. My hope is this reminder causes a few to go, "Oh yeah, I'm being silly," then go about their day less angry.

Do you have a wife/husband or a boyfriend/girlfriend?

If so, the next time your significant other is upset or angry, why don't you tell her/him to calm down and let the anger go and see where that gets you. The response to that by most people is usually more anger or frustration. It really isn't as helpful as you think it is.

I know you think you are trying to help. But it really comes off - even in your second post - as I am above all this petty anger. You should totally join me in my land of rainbows and clouds, where the birds sing, the flowers bloom and all is right with the world. Just follow my sage advice and you, too, can be happy.

Anger and grief have a course to run. Let it run.

Dauthi

bonfire01 wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

Perhaps, but in the most recent featured 3* Thor event, when he is boosted close to, but still under 4*s maximum level his yellow did 3.7k(ish) damage, and green did 3.6k ish damage (x2 to the main target). This equaled out to around 18k damage across the team. This is crazy.

Despite that, even if we compare the damage he can do across typical 3* team based on a %, it is pretty devastating, so I don't think the scaling would be that bad. He would still be more damage by far and above (like i said) than 4* Thor even if he did half that damage boosted. Granted, there is a stun to take into account, but I seriously doubt that scaling would remove half of the damage.

Purple is great, 4* Thor covered blue and red and Star Lord covers Purple and Red for damage.

That's all irrelevant because that isn't how 4* level scaling works AT ALL. You do not get all that extra damage from levels, all you are getting is a tiny bit of damage and some health past a certain point. My point is saying they are level 270 so OBVIOUSLY better than 3*s is incorrect. I can't remember the exact numbers (and uninstalled the game so can't check) but I remember looking at my fully covered level 166 Fury (so EXACT same level as a maxed 3*) and calculating he didn't gain a whole lot in the way of damage for the next 104 levels which use a metric on of ISO, so I didn't bother levelling him any further.

When 3*s are boosted for PvP (or PvE) they still scale as 3*s through all those extra levels (well apart from the tapering off of extra match damage they introduced a while ago to make them go more like 4*s in that respect). You'll notice your 3*s gain damage in abilities fairly uniformally as they level all the way to max.... 4*s do not.

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

Spoit

I'm not seeing it. Elektra would be mid-low tier for a 3*, her purple is pretty much worthless against non-muscles/overscaled dakens, at 270, her red is just average for an attack tile power, about on par with like mohawk or HT, and her black is good. But at that point, for 1 more AP you have SS, so I'm not sure when you'd ever cast it in pvp.

I'd much rather fight her than like, maybe 1/3 of the 3*s going as far down as like lazy cap and DD, much less actually threatening ones like LT or IF. (Sidenote, LT might actually be better than FT now?)

Dauthi

Spoit wrote:

I'm not seeing it. Elektra would be mid-low tier for a 3*, her purple is pretty much worthless against non-muscles/overscaled dakens,

Her purple can drop 2 203 (plus the original strength) strike tiles for a super cheap 7 purple if you fight anyone that creates them, this is situational but in those situations is incredibly powerful. It is less useful when not against a strike tiles creator, since it will cost you 14 purple to drop them, but I wouldn't call it useless.

On a side note, with everyone jumping on board with Xavier, we are likely to see this ability become a lot more useful when everyone starts using him.

at 270, her red is just average for an attack tile power, about on par with like mohawk or HT,

I think she has one of the better reds in the game. Her red drops 1.1k damage every turn through a random basic tile that is hidden. This makes her harder to play against since players won't immediately know how to disable the tile, and unlike storm who's damage decreases every turn as tiles are broken, she will likely do full damage for a long time. In 6 turns she will equal out 2 of torch's red, but remember that his ability destroys future uses of itself by destroying red tiles, so you better save to 12 first.

Let's not forget she has 10k life compared to their miniscule hp pools. This is a huge advantage from 3* to 4*.

and her black is good. But at that point, for 1 more AP you have SS, so I'm not sure when you'd ever cast it in pvp.

I'd much rather fight her than like, maybe 1/3 of the 3*s going as far down as like lazy cap and DD, much less actually threatening ones like LT or IF. (Sidenote, LT might actually be better than FT now?)

Her black is what makes her unusually unique. Also, if you save her for last and she uses it god help you, its going to hurt and she will be invincible for awhile. I can see her being used for PVE to block sniper shots or head butts for instance. Lots of interesting uses here.

I'm sorry but I would fight any 3* than any 4* maxed (aside from IW). Even if you don't believe that their abilities are stronger damage wise, their larger HP pool means you are a lot more likely to get hit by any of their abilities.

simonsez

Dauthi wrote:

I think she has one of the better reds in the game. Her red drops 1.1k damage every turn through a random basic tile that is hidden. This makes her harder to play against since players won't immediately know how to disable the tile, and unlike storm who's damage decreases every turn as tiles are broken, she will likely do full damage for a long time.

No she won't. It'd only make sense to use her against a strike tile spammer like Daken or Blade, and their passives overwrite her trap tile. It'll be gone really, really quickly. She's a textbook example of a character whose abilities are incompatible with one another.

Dauthi

simonsez wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I think she has one of the better reds in the game. Her red drops 1.1k damage every turn through a random basic tile that is hidden. This makes her harder to play against since players won't immediately know how to disable the tile, and unlike storm who's damage decreases every turn as tiles are broken, she will likely do full damage for a long time.

No she won't. It'd only make sense to use her against a strike tile spammer like Daken or Blade, and their passives overwrite her trap tile. It'll be gone really, really quickly. She's a textbook example of a character whose abilities are incompatible with one another.

Kind of, you can use her cheap purple to help kill daken/blade before dropping red. This shouldn't usually be a problem since they are both low hp, and her pink is cheap so you will likely get it before red anyways. It will also help disable Daken's blue which hurts.

This also won't be true with Xavier, who will be the real threat. I think the trend is releasing more characters with special tiles, and I hope it is true so that these characters with anti special tile abilities become more and more useful.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

Post nerf Iron fist. He is far more annoying than fighting Elekrtra now and will still be after the purple nerf. His passive does more damage over a match than an entire Elektra is likely to do and he has 2 other abilities!

Going further down the rungs of 3*s just to make a point.... I would rather face Elektra than Daredevil. DD's red is more threatening on it's own than everything she has.

Ebolamonkey84

Dauthi wrote:

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

In no particular order:
Iron Fist
Cage
LThor
Blade
Hood
Loki
CMags
535 Sentry
Doom
Cyclops

NighteyesGrisu

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

In no particular order:
Iron Fist
Cage
LThor
Blade
Hood
Loki
CMags
535 Sentry
Doom
Cyclops

basically yes...I'd even add DD, DP, Patch, Daken and Cap to that list

Ebolamonkey84

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

In no particular order:
Iron Fist
Cage
LThor
Blade
Hood
Loki
CMags
535 Sentry
Doom
Cyclops

basically yes...I'd even add DD, DP, Patch, Daken and Cap to that list

I was considering some of those as well, but I would put them around the same as elektra, with deciding factor on which team to fight being whomever is worth more points. Most of those will die before getting a power off, just like Elektra.

Dauthi

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

The numbers aren't available, but we can still answer this with my other question. Like I asked, you would rather fight Elektra than what 3*? Even if the advantage isn't as big as you would like, they will still do more damage and have more HP.

In no particular order:
Iron Fist
Cage
LThor
Blade
Hood
Loki
CMags
535 Sentry
Doom
Cyclops

basically yes...I'd even add DD, DP, Patch, Daken and Cap to that list

I was considering some of those as well, but I would put them around the same as elektra, with deciding factor on which team to fight being whomever is worth more points. Most of those will die before getting a power off, just like Elektra.

I think the problem is nobody uses her, so nobody realizes what she is capable of. On average all those characters have around 4000 hp less than her, so she is a lot more likely to get an ability off before she dies than any of those characters. If she gets off her black while you are trying to focus her down it puts you in a **** position too, forcing you to either focus another target or take all the damage while she takes none.

simonsez

Dauthi wrote:

I think the problem is nobody uses her, so nobody realizes what she is capable of.

Whales and sandboxers have tried every character extensively. If she were secretly any good, we'd all know by now.

Ebolamonkey84

Dauthi wrote:

I think the problem is nobody uses her, so nobody realizes what she is capable of. On average all those characters have around 4000 hp less than her, so she is a lot more likely to get an ability off before she dies than any of those characters. If she gets off her black while you are trying to focus her down it puts you in a **** position too, forcing you to either focus another target or take all the damage while she takes none.

I don't think that is the problem at all. The problem is that her powers are pretty good in very specific circumstances, none of which are higher level PVP. Once I'm doing my initial push from 600-700, I'm trying to get in as many matches as possible before running out of health packs and having to drop my first shield. I do not care if an opponent can beat me; I care about how much damage they can do before I beat them. I don't have GT, so I typically run XF + Hood or someone that can use the AP from SS. I rarely use strike tile users, so her purple is worthless unless she casts it twice. If she gets her black off and is not the last one standing, then I would just focus on the other two characters, more than likely destroying the traps with various board shake abilities. If she is the last one standing, then I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and I should go to bed. Her red could be potentially damaging, but can be easily destroyed by board shake. Also, the AI loves matching their own tiles immediately after placing them and isn't programmed to wait until there are no red matches. 10,000 HP is SS + ability from SS AP + possibly XF at most.

Now let's look at some of the 3* I mentioned:
Iron Fist - Hits for almost 500 HP a round, with nothing I can do to stop it short of killing him, at which point I still need to destroy the attack tile. Also has low AP move that can easily chain into a brutal black, assuming the person understands how the game works and paired a black user with him.

Cage - Only 2500 HP below Elektra, but red passive eliminates match damage and extends the match, allowing AI greater chance to get a power that can hurt.

LThor - Only 800 less HP. Powers accelerate his other powers and yellow/green pack a punch.

Blade - Bad board can cause his passive to hurt.

Hood - Again, it's all about the passive leading to more pain.

Loki - Passive keeps you from making match 4/5s, 5 purple easy to get and can lead to bad cascades.

CMags - Massive damage on the blue, good cascade potential off red.

Sentry - Getting off red or yellow means you are probably using at least one HP.

Doom - Big damage potential on purple, attack tiles live on after death.

Cyclops - Can wipe Hood with black or red + match damage.

If I play optimally, using ISO AP boosts only, the AI will usually not get off any powers requiring 10+ AP, and may get off the occasional 7-9 AP move. If any of the 3* above get their powers off, I'm likely using a health pack. I fear Iron Fist's passive more than XF and GT at this point, because I'm eating at least 1500 damage before I can down him. None of Elektra's powers really do anything up front and two rely on a trap mechanic which is fun in theory but flawed in reality.

Dauthi

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I think the problem is nobody uses her, so nobody realizes what she is capable of. On average all those characters have around 4000 hp less than her, so she is a lot more likely to get an ability off before she dies than any of those characters. If she gets off her black while you are trying to focus her down it puts you in a **** position too, forcing you to either focus another target or take all the damage while she takes none.

I don't think that is the problem at all. The problem is that her powers are pretty good in very specific circumstances, none of which are higher level PVP. Once I'm doing my initial push from 600-700, I'm trying to get in as many matches as possible before running out of health packs and having to drop my first shield. I do not care if an opponent can beat me; I care about how much damage they can do before I beat them. I don't have GT, so I typically run XF + Hood or someone that can use the AP from SS. I rarely use strike tile users, so her purple is worthless unless she casts it twice. If she gets her black off and is not the last one standing, then I would just focus on the other two characters, more than likely destroying the traps with various board shake abilities. If she is the last one standing, then I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing and I should go to bed. Her red could be potentially damaging, but can be easily destroyed by board shake. Also, the AI loves matching their own tiles immediately after placing them and isn't programmed to wait until there are no red matches. 10,000 HP is SS + ability from SS AP + possibly XF at most.

Now let's look at some of the 3* I mentioned:
Iron Fist - Hits for almost 500 HP a round, with nothing I can do to stop it short of killing him, at which point I still need to destroy the attack tile. Also has low AP move that can easily chain into a brutal black, assuming the person understands how the game works and paired a black user with him.

Cage - Only 2500 HP below Elektra, but red passive eliminates match damage and extends the match, allowing AI greater chance to get a power that can hurt.

LThor - Only 800 less HP. Powers accelerate his other powers and yellow/green pack a punch.

Blade - Bad board can cause his passive to hurt.

Hood - Again, it's all about the passive leading to more pain.

Loki - Passive keeps you from making match 4/5s, 5 purple easy to get and can lead to bad cascades.

CMags - Massive damage on the blue, good cascade potential off red.

Sentry - Getting off red or yellow means you are probably using at least one HP.

Doom - Big damage potential on purple, attack tiles live on after death.

Cyclops - Can wipe Hood with black or red + match damage.

If I play optimally, using ISO AP boosts only, the AI will usually not get off any powers requiring 10+ AP, and may get off the occasional 7-9 AP move. If any of the 3* above get their powers off, I'm likely using a health pack. I fear Iron Fist's passive more than XF and GT at this point, because I'm eating at least 1500 damage before I can down him. None of Elektra's powers really do anything up front and two rely on a trap mechanic which is fun in theory but flawed in reality.

What we are talking about though isn't shield hopping because she is obviously useless for quick kills. What we are talking about is the psychological factor of scaring off opponents who see that big level 270 and the time it will take to kill her coupled with the potential to get hurt by her. For instance XForce + Hood are anyone with an XForce's bread and butter, I will target them first above any other 3* team up because it is essentially an instant down when I use a green/black AP boost.

This doesn't matter at the point when you have to shield, but extends the point at which you have to start shield hopping for points. If leveling her as your first or second 4* means you can go from 600 to 700 or 700 to 800 points before being attacked, isn't that worth it?

Honestly, (especially after 4* Thor nerf) I would avoid her before any other 3* except maybe Iron Fist who is ridiculous with XForce.

Ebolamonkey84

Dauthi wrote:

What we are talking about though isn't shield hopping because she is obviously useless for quick kills. What we are talking about is the psychological factor of scaring off opponents who see that big level 270 and the time it will take to kill her coupled with the potential to get hurt by her. For instance XForce + Hood are anyone with an XForce's bread and butter, I will target them first above any other 3* team up because it is essentially an instant down when I use a green/black AP boost.

This doesn't matter at the point when you have to shield, but extends the point at which you have to start shield hopping for points. If leveling her as your first or second 4* means you can go from 600 to 700 or 700 to 800 points before being attacked, isn't that worth it?

Honestly, (especially after 4* Thor nerf) I would avoid her before any other 3* except maybe Iron Fist who is ridiculous with XForce.

I was also talking about the point where I have to start shielding. You need quick teams to extend the point at which you need to shield. I do not know of many people that score past 700 that would be scared off by merely seeing the number 270. A maxed Elektra may help scare people off on my climb from 0-650/700 or so, but those people are not the ones I worry about. Those are probably the same people that would get scared by a level 190 335 XForce even though he is worse than many max 3*.

My playstyle when I'm trying is to get to 700 or so and stop until I have all my health packs and a healthy team. At this point, I will do as many matches as I can until I'm either out of health packs or I stop gaining ground due to hits. Ideally I would like to stop for the latter. Characters that actually do quick damage make me stop because of the former.

The problem with trying to use Elektra as a scarecrow is that the crows eventually realize she can't do anything to them.