For those upset over the nerfs

wirius

Hm, I expected a little hostility in the thread. I get it, that's why you're here. Just letting you know, I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting. Just a friendly reminder to help pull you out of your anger, reflect, and not get so worked up.

simonsez

papa07 wrote:

Characters that can do 7k damage to an opponent in 1 shot

Might as well add CMag to that list. If you chain HIS red and blue, it'll do more damage for 1 less total AP, and give you massive board shake that does a much better job of accelerating whatever comes next. I'm sure there are plenty of other 2 move combos that do the same or better, and there's no reason not to include them, since surge and smite are two moves as well.

But why are we having to compare a 4* to a whole bunch of 3*s in the first place? Aren't 4*s supposed to be better? If not, what's the point of chasing them? If we're saying, "Hey, the nerf's not so bad, she still kinda as good as CMag", that's a problem.

Arondite

simonsez wrote:

Arondite wrote:

Good thing that's not her ability, huh?

How so? Does surge/smite do more damage or cost less AP?

Well, she does 4k(+) for Smite.

Surge does no damage, so counting it's cost in the damage to ap calculation is a bit absurd. Surge doesn't do damage - it doesn't have a damage to ap ratio unless you count the charged tiles AS it's damage, in which case it's

4K for 10 = 410/AP
3 Turn Stun + 725x5 for 9 = 403 + 1 Stun /AP.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

papa07 wrote:

Characters that can do 7k damage to an opponent in 1 shot

Might as well add CMag to that list. If you chain HIS red and blue, it'll do more damage for 1 less total AP, and give you massive board shake that does a much better job of accelerating whatever comes next. I'm sure there are plenty of other 2 move combos that do the same or better, and there's no reason not to include them, since surge and smite are two moves as well.

But why are we having to compare a 4* to a whole bunch of 3*s in the first place? Aren't 4*s supposed to be better? If not, what's the point of chasing them? If we're saying, "Hey, the nerf's not so bad, she still kinda as good as CMag", that's a problem.

Fair enough, sure I missed some, but let's look at that. 6 of the 35 3stars can do 7k damage - 5 of them are conditionally based on board. 3 of the 7 4stars can do 7k damage, only 1 conditionally based on board. Throw in the fact that 7k one shots the bulk of the three star ranks, but leave the 4 stars standing (limping but standing) and the 4 stars as a whole are better, it is just a smaller percentage better than it was.

I don't think anyone is saying she as good as CMags, just that the gap between them has closed some. Interesting choice of character, since the board exploded similarly when CMags was nerfed with outrage of how he was ruined and no one will ever play him again. Sometimes members on the forum overreact to changes on paper before seeing them in action. Of course the board exploded the same way for Sentry, so sometimes the outrage is appropriate. Guess I am saying, take a deep breath and see how she plays in 10 days.

Wonko33

bonfire01 wrote:

Square wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

2) 4thor is not great post nerf.. not even good. she is meh. If you think she is you don't know what you're talking about.

I've been building my 4hor, and she's at 4/4/4 right now. She is very good now. I lose on defense, mainly to 5/3/5 4hor players, but I've been hit way way less than before. The new five blue will be the old four. It's not meh. I put 10,000 ISO into her today, partly because I came in second in PVP using her. I'll be continuing to get her up to 270.

She won't be what she is now, but let's not exaggerate about the nerf.

You've probably been hit way less because of the scarecrow effect. Ppl don't check cover specs as much as they should and just hit skip seeing a levelled 4Thor. Where is the scarecrow effect when they know that an optimally covered 4Thor isn't much of a threat?

One of the ppl in my alliance has an otimally covered XForce but only at lvl 165 (IIRC). She takes loads of hits from ppl with bad teams and gets way more defensive wins than I do with my better team because of it. It's cause they don't check the spec... same deal really.

same here, i get some def wins from 3 star teams because I have fully covered level 200 (now 210) 4thor and xforce, may people don't check the roster before attacking

simonsez

papa07 wrote:

Interesting choice of character, since the board exploded similarly when CMags was nerfed with outrage of how he was ruined and no one will ever play him again.

He was a complete redesign, so it took people time to figure out what he'd be good at. And unless I'm wrong, this happened before the XForce buff. It was that combo that made people see how useful he could be. In the case of GT, there's nothing new to figure out. She's the same, except they've crippled her ability to deal damage and generate AP. She's just a scarecrow now. But maybe a better one, since the opponent will now take much longer to down her.

tanis3303

I honestly don't see the PvP environment changing too much. Xforce is still obviously the best character in the game, just like he was before Thor ever became a thing. Xforce is Green/Black/Yellow, but yellow only half counts, so the best pair to her would be a Blue/Red/Purple character. Ok, we have Daredevil, but yea.....he's not awful, but he' s not winning you any PvPs. Next best play is to use Red/Blue/X character, and as of now the best of those are Cap, Magneto, She Hulk (hush, I actually like her) or good ole Thoress. Cap is great, but he's slow. Mags is also great, and now probably fires off a similar amount of damage as Thor. But he only has 6800 health, so if you want any kind of scarecrow effect, you're still using Thor (or She Hulk. Seriously, I like her). At the end of PvPs, you're still going to see nothing but Xforce/Thor, simply because she has the right colors and 16,000 health. She wont end as many fights, but she's a great wall while Xforce takes care of that for her.

DrStrange-616

I see Miles took the time to upvote this thread today and yet, has he or any other dev responded to any of the concerns?

To the OP, I get what you're saying, but it does feel a little patronizing.

wirius

DrStrange-616 wrote:

I see Miles took the time to upvote this thread today and yet, has he or any other dev responded to any of the concerns?

To the OP, I get what you're saying, but it does feel a little patronizing.

My apologies if it came off that way Dr. Strange. Sometimes when people are angry, they don't think straight, and only think of themselves. Justified anger is good, but this is a reminder that anger to the point of raging at D3, threatening them with refund requests etc., isn't really smart or noble in any way. My hope is this reminder causes a few to go, "Oh yeah, I'm being silly," then go about their day less angry.

darkmagearcanis

After reading some of the comments in the post vote section. I would have to disagree with this comment:

simonsez » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:03 am-1
Comment:
Calling these characters "still great" sounds just as foolish as when the devs said "Spidey will still be one of your best characters"

Spidey is still one of my top characters that I use. While he has become more situational in how I use him, he still gets used a lot.

Also, Everyone makes the character balance seem like the devs completely destroyed the game. So you now have to use other characters in your roster. Big whoop. Does your roster only consists of 4* Thor and 4* Wolvie? Did you honestly expect to only play with these 2 characters the rest of the time that you play MPQ. Sounds boring to me. Changes like this actually bring out the creativity in people to find better unknown combos on their own instead of what they find online and then invest all of their time and ISO into.

Unknown

darkmagearcanis wrote:

After reading some of the comments in the post vote section. I would have to disagree with this comment:

simonsez » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:03 am-1
Comment:
Calling these characters "still great" sounds just as foolish as when the devs said "Spidey will still be one of your best characters"

Spidey is still one of my top characters that I use. While he has become more situational in how I use him, he still gets used a lot.

Also, Everyone makes the character balance seem like the devs completely destroyed the game. So you now have to use other characters in your roster. Big whoop. Does your roster only consists of 4* Thor and 4* Wolvie? Did you honestly expect to only play with these 2 characters the rest of the time that you play MPQ. Sounds boring to me. Changes like this actually bring out the creativity in people to find better unknown combos on their own instead of what they find online and then invest all of their time and ISO into.

When people spend months and countless events, time and in some cases money to get to the current games highest attainable level...those two characters...and they pull the rug out from you...yeah...I can see why people would be mad. And maybe they are waiting to play with more diverse four stars instead of watching their 4 stars becoming nothing more then suped up 3 stars. and maybe they have already played to death all of those three stars getting to the four star level. I get that you don't get it because you seem unable to empathize with the people in this situation but maybe a lot of people have already moved past the minor leagues...maybe...ya know...

Unknown

darkmagearcanis wrote:

After reading some of the comments in the post vote section. I would have to disagree with this comment:

simonsez » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:03 am-1
Comment:
Calling these characters "still great" sounds just as foolish as when the devs said "Spidey will still be one of your best characters"

Spidey is still one of my top characters that I use. While he has become more situational in how I use him, he still gets used a lot.

Also, Everyone makes the character balance seem like the devs completely destroyed the game. So you now have to use other characters in your roster. Big whoop. Does your roster only consists of 4* Thor and 4* Wolvie? Did you honestly expect to only play with these 2 characters the rest of the time that you play MPQ. Sounds boring to me. Changes like this actually bring out the creativity in people to find better unknown combos on their own instead of what they find online and then invest all of their time and ISO into.

How often do you use his Yellow power?

I have a fully covered, level 150something Spidey and rarely use him... but when I do, it is mostly for his protect tiles.

Leugenesmiff

camichan wrote:

wirius wrote:

You may FEEL diminished, but you're actually on more even footing with other players now.

We may be on more even footing with other players now, but those other players didn't lose several hundred dollars to be on even footing. Why wouldn't someone feel diminished to have paid several hundred dollars to be on a similar footing they could be if they had spent no money and been free to play?

I'm not saying this to argue that you or others shouldn't be upset after spending several hundred dollars on a character who got nerfed? I'm sure I'd be upset too. The thing I don't get is this: After seeing how this game works and how its characters are constantly getting adjusted, why would anyone spend several hundred dollars on a character knowing there's always a very real chance this could happen? And having known this and spent that money anyway, I'd think those people would be more angry at themselves than D3. D3's done what it's always done. It's those that spent the money somehow maybe thinking D3 would suddenly change M.O.s that I don't understand. It's like the old adage, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Again, Im not saying this to offend or ridicule those who did this and are upset. I'm just saying how I don't understand it. If anyone effected thinks they can help me do so I'd be happy to listen.

Taganov

OK, Camichan cleared it up for me. It's not that the nerf was bad balance, or that XF 4Thor still isn't the best team, it's that people spent money on 4Thor.

I suppose I'd be heated too if I'd dropped a couple hundred on it.

rednailz

camichan wrote:

wirius wrote:

You may FEEL diminished, but you're actually on more even footing with other players now.

We may be on more even footing with other players now, but those other players didn't lose several hundred dollars to be on even footing. Why wouldn't someone feel diminished to have paid several hundred dollars to be on a similar footing they could be if they had spent no money and been free to play?

I get and agree, and hey this is a game you can pay to get ahead on, I've never been bitter about people paying more than me doing better than me (unless they steal a good cover from me..lol) but if you are smart enough to have enough disposable income to drop several hundred dollars on a phone game, you are smart enough to know how fickle your investment is. Look at nerf that happen in MMOs, people spend hundreds to thousands or hour building a single character, and BOOM! NERFED. That's a real game....and being on the receiving end more than once it feels like an epic tragedy. Most of us have been tinnykittied enough in this game from changes to not be weary of a good thing when we see it....you know it'll be taken away. But don't worry, D3 will pump out even more imbalances characters to distract you

Dauthi

tanis3303 wrote:

I honestly don't see the PvP environment changing too much. Xforce is still obviously the best character in the game, just like he was before Thor ever became a thing. Xforce is Green/Black/Yellow, but yellow only half counts, so the best pair to her would be a Blue/Red/Purple character. Ok, we have Daredevil, but yea.....he's not awful, but he' s not winning you any PvPs. Next best play is to use Red/Blue/X character, and as of now the best of those are Cap, Magneto, She Hulk (hush, I actually like her) or good ole Thoress. Cap is great, but he's slow. Mags is also great, and now probably fires off a similar amount of damage as Thor. But he only has 6800 health, so if you want any kind of scarecrow effect, you're still using Thor (or She Hulk. Seriously, I like her). At the end of PvPs, you're still going to see nothing but Xforce/Thor, simply because she has the right colors and 16,000 health. She wont end as many fights, but she's a great wall while Xforce takes care of that for her.

This is why I say we were forced to pair her with XForce. People are already considering dumping her for Star Lord because her speed at killing people was all she really had, and trust me it is gone. This leads most to believe the timing to be on purpose, since now people will actually care to get Star Lord.

Trisul wrote:

However, both blue and red abilities still accelerate AP (albeit not at the ridiculous pace it did), and the damage combo ramps up with the charged tiles as well.

So it's more like "19 AP: Do 7k damage, and accelerate future combos by dumping 10 charged tiles on the board" rather than "19 AP: Do 12k damage, and super-accelerate future combos by dumping 17 charged tiles on the board".

This is fundamentally flawed. You are assuming the enemy will not match any of that AP, accelerating their future combos which actually reverses your boon. Also that your charged tiles will not land on yellow (remember you only get 8 now!). Significant acceleration would only occur after you drop the blue red combo, then drop another blue. Good luck with that.

4* Thor should do a decent amount of damage when accounting for the double edged sword nature of her charged tiles, but they aren't even taking that into account. They are extremely volatile and have to be handled carefully, else you get an AI loaded with blue, red or yellow. Considering this, just reducing her stun to 2 or so would have made her high risk/rewards and deserving of the damage she used to do.

rednailz wrote:

I get and agree, and hey this is a game you can pay to get ahead on, I've never been bitter about people paying more than me doing better than me (unless they steal a good cover from me..lol) but if you are smart enough to have enough disposable income to drop several hundred dollars on a phone game, you are smart enough to know how fickle your investment is. Look at nerf that happen in MMOs, people spend hundreds to thousands or hour building a single character, and BOOM! NERFED.

The problem here is timing. If you had earned all your 4* Thor covers legitimately, you should have just recently finished her. This means that all those that did pay for her got the best investment, while those who earned her got screwed over. They didn't get a good run, just a slap in the face when they crossed the finish line.

A nerf to XForce would have been fine, since players have been able to earn him for a very long time, then again this wouldn't have promoted obtaining their shiny new Star Lord

Arondite

simonsez wrote:

papa07 wrote:

Interesting choice of character, since the board exploded similarly when CMags was nerfed with outrage of how he was ruined and no one will ever play him again.

He was a complete redesign, so it took people time to figure out what he'd be good at. And unless I'm wrong, this happened before the XForce buff. It was that combo that made people see how useful he could be. In the case of GT, there's nothing new to figure out. She's the same, except they've crippled her ability to deal damage and generate AP. She's just a scarecrow now. But maybe a better one, since the opponent will now take much longer to down her.

Could it be that, in the same way, new x force revealed magnetos strengths, a new character will reveal 4thors?

Unknown

4hor's strengths were obvious. Then they were gutted. Now the only way to "reveal" her strengths is to release Gambit with teh old version of Power Surge.

KrazyKeylime

rednailz wrote:

camichan wrote:

wirius wrote:

You may FEEL diminished, but you're actually on more even footing with other players now.

We may be on more even footing with other players now, but those other players didn't lose several hundred dollars to be on even footing. Why wouldn't someone feel diminished to have paid several hundred dollars to be on a similar footing they could be if they had spent no money and been free to play?

I get and agree, and hey this is a game you can pay to get ahead on, I've never been bitter about people paying more than me doing better than me (unless they steal a good cover from me..lol) but if you are smart enough to have enough disposable income to drop several hundred dollars on a phone game, you are smart enough to know how fickle your investment is. Look at nerf that happen in MMOs, people spend hundreds to thousands or hour building a single character, and BOOM! NERFED. That's a real game....and being on the receiving end more than once it feels like an epic tragedy. Most of us have been tinnykittied enough in this game from changes to not be weary of a good thing when we see it....you know it'll be taken away. But don't worry, D3 will pump out even more imbalances characters to distract you

and when enough people are tired of putting up with this kind of treatment they leave and the game dies like so many before this one.

ballingbees

I am afraid that the recent uproar may be indirectly sending a confused signal to the developers.
That it is criminal to nerf powerful characters, but it is ok or even praiseworthy to create **** ones and buff them later.

Spiderman nerf : negative response
X-Force buff : overwhelming positive response
Magneto nerf : overall positive response
Sentry nerf : negative response
Daredevil buff : positive response
Loki/Doom buff : positive response

Seems we love buffs, and hate nerfs. The one exception being Magneto, who was nerfed with good measure, so that it wasn't broken on offence, yet is still viable in defence. Which I think is how 4Thor was balanced: her blue is no longer overpowered (which other power gives a 240% hike between 4 and 5 covers?), yet is still very much the defence deterrent she was and still is. I'm ready to bet my roster that all those who are condemning her nerf will not be in a hurry to replace their X-Force/4Thor teams with X-Force/Elektra. Yes it is understandable to feel aggrieved to have spent money and effort in getting her blue, only for it to be not what was once advertised. I'm just pointing out that the balancing is not a far departure from what they have been doing, and they have been getting slightly better at it compared to before, Magneto being a direct comparison.

Do we really want more Beast-ly characters at launch, wait 6 months for its buff then celebrate them? Is it not any different from creating powerful characters at launch (iFist) and then nerf them? Both cases display the lack of adequate play testing, why should our response be different