*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

Unknown

Hoping you can get something from the AI playing IFoKL incorrectly is like handing the AI a match 4 on purpose and hope the cascade will give you a match 5 on your turn. Sure it has happened but that's never the correct strategy. If Iron Fist is boosted then bringing Hulk or Captain Marvel might work depending on the exact numbers to trigger Energy Absorption/Anger. Otherwise you just bring whoever your best guy is and try to get rid of him before he can use IFoKL even once and try to keep the board as cleared of black tiles as possible.

sinnerjfl

Sword user wrote:

But, while we're talking, would it be better to bring a black user against him, feed him enough purple to put it off early (before they have enough for multiple skills on the likely cascade) and hope that you can use the black? It seems like a far-fetched strategy, but if his purple is a double-edged sword, then it would have to be a viable one.

(Just to be clear, I do have IF at level 166 and played with him a lot these days, 5/5/3 not that matters since is everyone's problem)

When playing against IF, as you mentionned, the AI will rarely use twice in a row which leads into the scenario I mentionned. AI uses , might get a 3 or 4-match but nothing crazy. That leaves a lot of black on the board for you to utilize especially if you have IF yourself or Doom/Mystique. Even if you don't have a generator, you can still gather the left over and use it against him. Remember, he will remove other colors and replace them with which he himself can't really use.

He is not that tough to beat by the way, his health is kind of low-ish and he has limited offensive capabilities. He goes down fast and I really don't see a problem facing him (except that annoying attack tile but it's often the only damage he will do to you).


When IF is on your team, I've found that yes, he is awesome at generating , especially saving up and using it twice, it will cause a crit or two guaranteed. You're also removing a lot of other colors as I've said before, this is why it's not as OP as it might seem. After that, you will be solely dependent on for many turns and good luck firing off any ability over 10 AP that's not .


Now where people have a problem with this is that there are awesome abilities that use mainly: ROTP, has always been a contested skill so that's nothing new, it's incredibly strong for the AP cost. Surgical strike, at least its single target and removing many colors from the board might not lead to such crazy damage. Cyclops' Full Blast, Mystique's Masterstroke.

If they wanted to bump to 6 AP, it wouldn't be the worst idea ever. I still stand by what I said though, Iron Fist himself has a hard time using the AP he generates. If other characters have OP powers is that really a good reason to nerf him?

He's a relitavely new character with some unique skills, most people don't even have him fully covered to try him out but let's nerf him already? That seems a bit harsh.

sinnerjfl

Phantron wrote:

Hoping you can get something from the AI playing IFoKL incorrectly is like handing the AI a match 4 on purpose and hope the cascade will give you a match 5 on your turn. Sure it has happened but that's never the correct strategy. If Iron Fist is boosted then bringing Hulk or Captain Marvel might work depending on the exact numbers to trigger Energy Absorption/Anger. Otherwise you just bring whoever your best guy is and try to get rid of him before he can use IFoKL even once and try to keep the board as cleared of black tiles as possible.

At least entertain my idea of how to turn the tables on him instead of just saying "kill him ASAP" (which works of course). It's that line of thinking that makes everyone think IF is a death machine. He's very likely to use purple at least once whatever you do so you might as well plan a strategy against it.

The AI doesnt know when or how to use his at all. One use of it does not lead to massive cascades unless the board is already rich in . That's your job to not give him a nice board and dry it out of rich areas.

Unknown

sinnerjfl wrote:

At least entertain my idea of how to turn the tables on him instead of just saying "kill him ASAP" (which works of course). It's that line of thinking that makes everyone think IF is a death machine. He's very likely to use purple at least once whatever you do so you might as well plan a strategy against it.

The AI doesnt know when or how to use his at all. One use of it does not lead to massive cascades unless the board is already rich in . That's your job to not give him a nice board and dry it out of rich areas.

The average board has 9 tiles of each color. One IFoKL puts it at 18, which is more than 1/4 of the entire board. There just aren't that many ways to put 18 tiles on a board that doesn't result in a significant cascade, let alone one where there is no significant cascade for the guy with the current turn but somehow gives you a great match on your turn. Of course it is possible, but just not likely. If his black is at level 5, the attack tile only has to get in about 20 hits to more than trade for his HP against an average 3*, and remember the tile persists even after he's downed.

One way to think about the situation is that suppose I can tell you that you can always down Iron Fist without him getting any moves off but his attack tile will stick around for a total of 20 turns (which isn't a very long time given the longer games in general). That sounds like a pretty good deal. Now what if guy #2 and guy #3 on the team are also exactly this strong? Then you'd lose every game you ever play in these scenarios because all 3 guys are able to dish out more damage (~9.2K for 20 hits on attack tile) than they took and mathematically this means the defending team must have won the game since your team's HP would've ran out before theirs! And they'd be doing that with just having a passive move. Now thankfully there isn't Iron Fist #2 and Iron Fist #3 backing him up so even though Iron Fist can easily pull his weight (he can do >8K damage with his passive alone most of the time), you can make that deficit up on his less capable friends.

sinnerjfl

Phantron wrote:

The average board has 9 tiles of each color. One IFoKL puts it at 18, which is more than 1/4 of the entire board. There just aren't that many ways to put 18 tiles on a board that doesn't result in a significant cascade, let alone one where there is no significant cascade for the guy with the current turn but somehow gives you a great match on your turn. Of course it is possible, but just not likely. If his black is at level 5, the attack tile only has to get in about 20 hits to more than trade for his HP against an average 3*, and remember the tile persists even after he's downed.

He converts 7 tiles now after nerf, not 9. I know it doesnt look like much, but those 2 tiles makes a difference in cascade potential hence why it came in effect. If you dry the board of instead of denying , you just might reduce the cascade potential.

Phantron wrote:

One way to think about the situation is that suppose I can tell you that you can always down Iron Fist without him getting any moves off but his attack tile will stick around for a total of 20 turns (which isn't a very long time given the longer games in general). That sounds like a pretty good deal. Now what if guy #2 and guy #3 on the team are also exactly this strong? Then you'd lose every game you ever play in these scenarios because all 3 guys are able to dish out more damage (~9.2K for 20 hits on attack tile) than they took and mathematically this means the defending team must have won the game since your team's HP would've ran out before theirs! And they'd be doing that with just having a passive move. Now thankfully there isn't Iron Fist #2 and Iron Fist #3 backing him up so even though Iron Fist can easily pull his weight (he can do >8K damage with his passive alone most of the time), you can make that deficit up on his less capable friends.

His attack tile might be strong but once again, it's all about planning. Bring a boardshake ability, Loki, someone who can override/steal/modify the tile, bring a protect tile spammer (Cage/Falcon), IW could lock the tile and even give you a protect tile for doing so, etc etc
For once we get a scenario where protect tiles might be useful but nope, let's nerf his attack tile instead.

Although I would agree that his attack tile should die out at some point when IF is dead. Same for Cage's protect tile.

Unknown

Sword user wrote:

You can't look at IF in a vacuum, though, either. And the AI will never use his purple twice in a row, while it will generate a lot of black on a single use. Luck can effect it, and it can fail, but the AI can get enough purple from the cascade for back-to-back usage.

But, while we're talking, would it be better to bring a black user against him, feed him enough purple to put it off early (before they have enough for multiple skills on the likely cascade) and hope that you can use the black? It seems like a far-fetched strategy, but if his purple is a double-edged sword, then it would have to be a viable one.

I've got a 2/2/2 IF and a HP bank that's enough to take him to 2/5/2 (that I've been saving for Roster Slots, since I hate throwing away new 3*, and not having essentials), how long would I have before possible adjustment? I suspect, based upon my interactions (heroic losses, I mean, worse than against pre-nerf Wolv, at least you could realistically deny him AP) with him, that just in cascade potential, IF would be a blast to play.

If his black damage is high enough, just bring Hulk.

IF is a blast to play. If I had $$$$, I'd probably be using X/Quicksilver/IF every chance I could get - efficient, powerful.

If by adjustment you mean nerf, I don't know. I stand by this: if any character can produce AP, they're liable to get nerfed. D3 recently said they have no plans to change any 3*, yet earlier they said IM*3 is bad and would be changed. Magic 8 Ball is cloudy.

Even still in this thread certain people are sleeping on how powerful he is, and even using him wrong.
As long as he's 5 he's totally playable - I have a 1/5/4 Iron Fist at level 130 who I use in Deadpool daily among other things

sinnerjfl wrote:

Sword user wrote:

But, while we're talking, would it be better to bring a black user against him, feed him enough purple to put it off early (before they have enough for multiple skills on the likely cascade) and hope that you can use the black? It seems like a far-fetched strategy, but if his purple is a double-edged sword, then it would have to be a viable one.

(Just to be clear, I do have IF at level 166 and played with him a lot these days, 5/5/3 not that matters since is everyone's problem)

When playing against IF, as you mentionned, the AI will rarely use twice in a row which leads into the scenario I mentionned. AI uses , might get a 3 or 4-match but nothing crazy. That leaves a lot of black on the board for you to utilize especially if you have IF yourself or Doom/Mystique. Even if you don't have a generator, you can still gather the left over and use it against him. Remember, he will remove other colors and replace them with which he himself can't really use.

He is not that tough to beat by the way, his health is kind of low-ish and he has limited offensive capabilities. He goes down fast and I really don't see a problem facing him (except that annoying attack tile but it's often the only damage he will do to you).


When IF is on your team, I've found that yes, he is awesome at generating , especially saving up and using it twice, it will cause a crit or two guaranteed. You're also removing a lot of other colors as I've said before, this is why it's not as OP as it might seem. After that, you will be solely dependent on for many turns and good luck firing off any ability over 10 AP that's not .


Now where people have a problem with this is that there are awesome abilities that use mainly: ROTP, has always been a contested skill so that's nothing new, it's incredibly strong for the AP cost. Surgical strike, at least its single target and removing many colors from the board might not lead to such crazy damage. Cyclops' Full Blast, Mystique's Masterstroke.

If they wanted to bump to 6 AP, it wouldn't be the worst idea ever. I still stand by what I said though, Iron Fist himself has a hard time using the AP he generates. If other characters have OP powers is that really a good reason to nerf him?

He's a relitavely new character with some unique skills, most people don't even have him fully covered to try him out but let's nerf him already? That seems a bit harsh.

Being new does not excuse you from being overpowered, thusly does not excuse you from getting nerfed.

Yes, as I said earlier, you CANNOT balance characters by themselves in this game.

Professor X is a support character. He cannot be balanced by himself and his capabilities in the game without looking at who he's supporting.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

williamwallace wrote:

I wouldnt say his Purple is overpowered really.

Many times ive cast it and not got any instant cascades, and only been able to get a Match-3 out of it, its all just luck really.

Dooms Blue, board dependant, can be far more devastating, again with luck.

I find this game about 60/40 Skill/luck.

you'd rather doom blue than IF purple? No wonder you don't like it

I dont remember saying that.

Unknown

How do people even suggest abilities that board shake can possibly deal with Iron Fist's black when it costs you a lot of AP to do it and he immediately puts it back on the board during his turn even if you somehow got rid of it? The most aggrevating part of Luke Cage/Iron Fist/Scarlet Witch's passive isn't that they're just overpowered, but that even if you somehow got rid of it, they just immediately put it back on the board and usually not even missing a single turn of effectiveness. And you're talking about having a specialized team just to deal with his passive even though his active moves are also some of the best ones in the game. The only ability that can deal well with his passive is Energy Absorption/Anger, but note that neither can be triggered if Iron Fist isn't buffed under normal circumstances.

Currently it barely works out since 20 hits X 460 = 9.2K which is less than the HP of a boosted level 240 character, so as long as Iron Fist isn't boosted you're not going to get a situation where 3 Iron Fists can beat a team with just passives (if each Iron Fist gets 20 hits in with attack tile they'd do more damage than the average opposing team has in HPs). Yes you can't have 3 Iron Fists but the notion of a character that can win with just his passive is insane, when he still has some of the best actives in the game too.

Malcrof

Phantron wrote:

How do people even suggest abilities that board shake can possibly deal with Iron Fist's black when it costs you a lot of AP to do it and he immediately puts it back on the board during his turn even if you somehow got rid of it? The most aggrevating part of Luke Cage/Iron Fist/Scarlet Witch's passive isn't that they're just overpowered, but that even if you somehow got rid of it, they just immediately put it back on the board and usually not even missing a single turn of effectiveness. And you're talking about having a specialized team just to deal with his passive even though his active moves are also some of the best ones in the game. The only ability that can deal well with his passive is Energy Absorption/Anger, but note that neither can be triggered if Iron Fist isn't buffed under normal circumstances.

Currently it barely works out since 20 hits X 460 = 9.2K which is less than the HP of a boosted level 240 character, so as long as Iron Fist isn't boosted you're not going to get a situation where 3 Iron Fists can beat a team with just passives (if each Iron Fist gets 20 hits in with attack tile they'd do more damage than the average opposing team has in HPs). Yes you can't have 3 Iron Fists but the notion of a character that can win with just his passive is insane, when he still has some of the best actives in the game too.

Which is why pairing him with Psylocke and Blade works so well.

sinnerjfl

Phantron wrote:

How do people even suggest abilities that board shake can possibly deal with Iron Fist's black when it costs you a lot of AP to do it and he immediately puts it back on the board during his turn even if you somehow got rid of it? The most aggrevating part of Luke Cage/Iron Fist/Scarlet Witch's passive isn't that they're just overpowered, but that even if you somehow got rid of it, they just immediately put it back on the board and usually not even missing a single turn of effectiveness. And you're talking about having a specialized team just to deal with his passive even though his active moves are also some of the best ones in the game. The only ability that can deal well with his passive is Energy Absorption/Anger, but note that neither can be triggered if Iron Fist isn't buffed under normal circumstances.

Currently it barely works out since 20 hits X 460 = 9.2K which is less than the HP of a boosted level 240 character, so as long as Iron Fist isn't boosted you're not going to get a situation where 3 Iron Fists can beat a team with just passives (if each Iron Fist gets 20 hits in with attack tile they'd do more damage than the average opposing team has in HPs). Yes you can't have 3 Iron Fists but the notion of a character that can win with just his passive is insane, when he still has some of the best actives in the game too.

Boardshake to remove it after he's dead, sorry I didn't specify. His passive can still be negated by a protect tile generator so why not use those to counter him? Even BP's blue (a very avg skill) would block some of the damage. Bring Lazy Cap and stun + override the tile, bring DD with his almost perma-stun... The same strategy applies to when fighting say Daken or Blade, it's just a different sort of damage.

I'm not a huge fan of his black skill either but there are counters. But I think it's designed like that because he doesnt deal huge amounts of damage himself (until he reaches 12 ). And it's a little disingenuous how you're doing the math there. The attack tile won't damage the same character for 20 turns in a row

sinnerjfl

raisinbman wrote:

Being new does not excuse you from being overpowered, thusly does not excuse you from getting nerfed.

Yes, as I said earlier, you CANNOT balance characters by themselves in this game.

Professor X is a support character. He cannot be balanced by himself and his capabilities in the game without looking at who he's supporting.

He has already received one nerf in the first week after his release. I'm not saying he shouldn't be looked at because he's new. I'm saying that we should let more people have the character themselves, play with him and against him so that they can form a real opinion and not something based on that one match where it went sour and you were unprepared against IF (fictional example).

Let the meta evolve a little then we can evaluate wether or not he needs changes. I don't see him as a broken character that changes the whole game on the level of Sentry/X-Force/Thoress.

Unknown

sinnerjfl wrote:

Phantron wrote:

How do people even suggest abilities that board shake can possibly deal with Iron Fist's black when it costs you a lot of AP to do it and he immediately puts it back on the board during his turn even if you somehow got rid of it? The most aggrevating part of Luke Cage/Iron Fist/Scarlet Witch's passive isn't that they're just overpowered, but that even if you somehow got rid of it, they just immediately put it back on the board and usually not even missing a single turn of effectiveness. And you're talking about having a specialized team just to deal with his passive even though his active moves are also some of the best ones in the game. The only ability that can deal well with his passive is Energy Absorption/Anger, but note that neither can be triggered if Iron Fist isn't buffed under normal circumstances.

Currently it barely works out since 20 hits X 460 = 9.2K which is less than the HP of a boosted level 240 character, so as long as Iron Fist isn't boosted you're not going to get a situation where 3 Iron Fists can beat a team with just passives (if each Iron Fist gets 20 hits in with attack tile they'd do more damage than the average opposing team has in HPs). Yes you can't have 3 Iron Fists but the notion of a character that can win with just his passive is insane, when he still has some of the best actives in the game too.

Boardshake to remove it after he's dead, sorry I didn't specify. His passive can still be negated by a protect tile generator so why not use those to counter him? Even BP's blue (a very avg skill) would block some of the damage. Bring Lazy Cap and stun + override the tile, bring DD with his almost perma-stun... The same strategy applies to when fighting say Daken or Blade, it's just a different sort of damage.

I'm not a huge fan of his black skill either but there are counters. But I think it's designed like that because he doesnt deal huge amounts of damage himself (until he reaches 12 ). And it's a little disingenuous how you're doing the math there. The attack tile won't damage the same character for 20 turns in a row

Those counters you mentioned are too slow. I can't give your arguments anymore credibility.

sinnerjfl wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Being new does not excuse you from being overpowered, thusly does not excuse you from getting nerfed.

Yes, as I said earlier, you CANNOT balance characters by themselves in this game.

Professor X is a support character. He cannot be balanced by himself and his capabilities in the game without looking at who he's supporting.

He has already received one nerf in the first week after his release. I'm not saying he shouldn't be looked at because he's new. I'm saying that we should let more people have the character themselves, play with him and against him so that they can form a real opinion and not something based on that one match where it went sour and you were unprepared against IF (fictional example).

Let the meta evolve a little then we can evaluate wether or not he needs changes. I don't see him as a broken character that changes the whole game on the level of Sentry/X-Force/Thoress.

So, you're saying you are completely unaware of X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist.

That is our real opinion as players.

This is why I can't give what you're saying any credit, bud. I can't give your arguments anymore credibility.

williamwallace wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

williamwallace wrote:

I wouldnt say his Purple is overpowered really.

Many times ive cast it and not got any instant cascades, and only been able to get a Match-3 out of it, its all just luck really.

Dooms Blue, board dependant, can be far more devastating, again with luck.

I find this game about 60/40 Skill/luck.

you'd rather doom blue than IF purple? No wonder you don't like it

I dont remember saying that.

You want Doom. You don't want IF.

Do the math.

You're a specific type of player who would rather have "All" than "7" no matter any other factors.

sinnerjfl

raisinbman wrote:

So, you're saying you are completely unaware of X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist.

That is our real opinion as players.

This is why I can't give what you're saying any credit, bud. I can't give your arguments anymore credibility.

(Last time I'm replying to this because you sound like a troll and unwilling to debate intelligently)

X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist =... nice theorycrafting team here but the AI cannot use that properly. Bring that into PVP, ill take the free points.
Quicksilver is trash-tier, Prof X's blue is another can of worms and its not only IF that makes it problematic. It's all nice in theory but that really doesnt sound overpowering in the slightest as a team like Sentry/Hood was.

Your "real opinions" are kneejerk reactions, it's not even been 3 months he's been released.

Unknown

sinnerjfl wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

So, you're saying you are completely unaware of X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist.

That is our real opinion as players.

This is why I can't give what you're saying any credit, bud. I can't give your arguments anymore credibility.

(Last time I'm replying to this because you sound like a troll and unwilling to debate intelligently)

X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist =... nice theorycrafting team here but the AI cannot use that properly. Bring that into PVP, ill take the free points.
Quicksilver is trash-tier, Prof X's blue is another can of worms and its not only IF that makes it problematic. It's all nice in theory but that really doesnt sound overpowering in the slightest as a team like Sentry/Hood was.

Your "real opinions" are kneejerk reactions, it's not even been 3 months he's been released.

Why are you worried about what the AI can do? Did you not bother getting vision because the AI can't play it?

And no, it's not theorycrafting. If you had done your research prior to "kneejerk reacting"(see what I did there?) you would see OTHERS(not just me!) know how problematic IF is, but it seems like you can't be bothered to read through this thread.

It does not matter if it's as overpowering as Sentry/Hood was. It is not a scale of 'how overpowered is it' It's a question of IS IT OVERPOWERED?

Also, I think it's sad you don't realize a trash tier character can be elevated by the right circumstances. Which we have.

PS: It's cool though, you're too lazy to do research, I'll bring my guns out - On Professor X's power(viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28289). On Quicksilver/Professor X/Iron Fist(viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28139).

PPS: I can't take anyone who is seriously ignoring Nonce Equitaur 2's words seriously so you're ignored.

simonsez

raisinbman wrote:

So, you're saying you are completely unaware of X/Quicksilver/Iron Fist.

No one is using that combo. Nonce tried hard to make it a thing, but just because you list a series of steps, doesn't mean it actually works.

Maybe it's just me, but looking at a random board, it's not very common that I see a situation that is one swap away from a match 5. And even if you get one, then what? You've gotten back 4 blacks, so you're still 7 blacks away from your next swap. So what now?

There are so many better combos for PX that don't include an albatross like QS... Nonce's post was the equivalent of trying to teach a chimp to skate.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

And no, it's not theorycrafting.

Your professor x has two blue covers. Your IF is 1/5/4. Your QS is 2/3/4. Everything you say is theorycrafting.

Unknown

QS + IF + Prof X worked better for the QS event just because the opposing guy has to have a QS which makes it easier to get a discount on QS's abilities. Sure you can easily make 15 moves in one turn if the board is right but if the board is right you can just do 2 ROTPs for the same board and that'd already end the game. Realistically you need to be able to generate around 20 black AP to make sure you can use Idle Hands twice in case you get into a situation where one Idle Hands can't do anything useful, and if you have 20 black AP with PX + IF + any decent black user, you already won the game.

Unknown

I think I play IF in an unusual way and I am checking to see if I need to change the way I am playing him.

I pair him with SW who is 5/3/5. I stock up on Purple til I have 10 (usually 4 turns with witch) then pop Purple twice. Watch board explode then grab green until SW blue pops again. Cast purple, rinse and repeat. While boosted IF does 5600 with 12 black for just 5 purple. Is this the proper strategy with him?

Malcrof

traedoril wrote:

I think I play IF in an unusual way and I am checking to see if I need to change the way I am playing him.

I pair him with SW who is 5/3/5. I stock up on Purple til I have 10 (usually 4 turns with witch) then pop Purple twice. Watch board explode then grab green until SW blue pops again. Cast purple, rinse and repeat. While boosted IF does 5600 with 12 black for just 5 purple. Is this the proper strategy with him?

Depends on the fight. Some use him as a black generator for cage, mostorm, etc.. The free attack tile works great with LDaken, strike tile matching green, his ability giving more strikes, that tile can hit 1k a tick in no time easy.

Any strike tile generator is a good pair with him. Using his purple to get the damage bonus is fine, but cage with 12 black can do the same, MoStorm with 12 black can do over 1k a turn.

So , it is situational. Nifty combo with SW though

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

traedoril wrote:

I think I play IF in an unusual way and I am checking to see if I need to change the way I am playing him.

I pair him with SW who is 5/3/5. I stock up on Purple til I have 10 (usually 4 turns with witch) then pop Purple twice. Watch board explode then grab green until SW blue pops again. Cast purple, rinse and repeat. While boosted IF does 5600 with 12 black for just 5 purple. Is this the proper strategy with him?

Depends on the fight. Some use him as a black generator for cage, mostorm, etc.. The free attack tile works great with LDaken, strike tile matching green, his ability giving more strikes, that tile can hit 1k a tick in no time easy.

Any strike tile generator is a good pair with him. Using his purple to get the damage bonus is fine, but cage with 12 black can do the same, MoStorm with 12 black can do over 1k a turn.

So , it is situational. Nifty combo with SW though

Got it, so In simulator add Cage and win thanks!!