Weekly 4* proposal

wirius

Phantron wrote:

wirius wrote:

If you notice I address this by stating D3 could charge 150-300 hp to even access the weekly. I do understand they need to make money. Also, there are going to be more people willing to shell out big bucks for 4* covers instead of waiting over a year for them too.

The amount is costs to enter will be similar to whatever D3 is shooting for people hitting 1000 in PvP, but in PvE you've the additional complication that while PvP there are side benefits to trying to hit 1000 even if you didn't reach it (seasons/event placement), while in this hypothetical buy-in event I'm guessing you wouldn't have much to show for it if you didn't beat it. However the event can't be so unconditionally easy that anyone who's willing to pay 500 HP will always win, because then that's vastly underselling what they expected to make per 4* (2500 HP). I think getting this to work in PvE is considerably harder than PvP and while that's not a reason to not do it, I'm not particularly confident that we can expect a working model anytime soon. If D3 surprised me and did come up with something that's modestly challenging and fair, then of course they should go for it, but I'm guessing the reason we haven't seen anything like this yet is because it's pretty hard. We did have 4* on progression once, during the original Heroic Oscorp, but I don't think anyone in the entire game got it. I think I had 1/3 of the points needed for the 4* and I won my bracket by a decent margin. While D3 probably improved since those days, it's still a very hard thing to get right between the right mix of cost to charge players and the proper difficulty.

I understand your trepidation. However, I think you also see that while it might require some planning to implement this effectively, it could be implemented in a way to not impact their revenue stream. In fact, this might get people to spend more money from people who would never bother to shield or spend money in pvp. I'll let them hash those details out.

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

mjh wrote:

I would say like previously mentioned the DP Daily Quest was generous (and awesome) and instead of handing out 4*s they should work on balancing 3*s that can have some type of chance at beating XF/4hor (LThor is 1)

Sorry to go off topic yet again, but AAAAARRRGG!

How many times did you beat 166/166/166 with 94/94/94??? Why should 166/166/166 beat 270/270/270 with any regularity?

Disclaimer: I have zero covered 4*'s, and only one with more than seven covers. I have zero 166's as well, though several covered. But you know what? I'm looking forward to moving into the 4* land someday and not have to worry about the 166's any more than I have to worry about the 94's. Shoot, it is both an INCREDIBLY lucky and highly boosted 2* team that would be able to gets a vary rare win against undercovered 127/140 team mixes. Shouldn't it be an incredibly lucky and highly boosted 3* team that gets a rare win against undercovered 210/233 (10-11 cover) 4*'s?

Any balance done needs to be making the 4*'s -not- lose to 3*'s, not the other way around.

Short answer? A lot. Ares/OBW/Featured beat the pants off of 166 teams back in the day, and still can just with a steady diet of

Also related: There are plenty of 166 teams that can beat the **** out of XF/TGT/Featured.

GrumpySmurf1002

SnowcaTT wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Tredo wrote:

What if they made it available with a node that had three required 3* characters? That way, only people that are seriously transitioning from 3 - 4 would be able to compete.

I like this concept. I would expand it to coordinate with the current DDQ, thus requiring you to have all 5 of the DDQ characters, plus the 4* in question.

3 with a single essential, then the final (maybe survival) with the 4* and the other two 3*s required. 4* cover is rewarded on progression.

Could do it like now - the single essential could have the 4* (the same one you are earning, so you have to have one to earn one) - lets you use a low level character in a weaker node, since you theoretically need to level that character, you don't have all the covers. Then let any 3 of the 5 current 3*'s take on the final node.

Requiring all 5 as an essential 'forces' roster breadth and thus roster spot purchases, which can help fuel this dynamic. If you can continue to ignore someone like Beast because you only 3 out of 5, then you lose that element.

Because difficulty should be ramped also, something like Combined Arms nodes (must use 1* and 2* along with the essential) and high (200+) level opponents. Then for the final throw in a nice 395 Hood-cMags duo or something.

Then you run it weekly....5 DDQ characters M-Fri, and 2 days to try to figure out how to beat the nodes for the 4*.

Unknown

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Tredo wrote:

What if they made it available with a node that had three required 3* characters? That way, only people that are seriously transitioning from 3 - 4 would be able to compete.

I like this concept. I would expand it to coordinate with the current DDQ, thus requiring you to have all 5 of the DDQ characters, plus the 4* in question.

3 with a single essential, then the final (maybe survival) with the 4* and the other two 3*s required. 4* cover is rewarded on progression.

Could do it like now - the single essential could have the 4* (the same one you are earning, so you have to have one to earn one) - lets you use a low level character in a weaker node, since you theoretically need to level that character, you don't have all the covers. Then let any 3 of the 5 current 3*'s take on the final node.

Requiring all 5 as an essential 'forces' roster breadth and thus roster spot purchases, which can help fuel this dynamic. If you can continue to ignore someone like Beast because you only 3 out of 5, then you lose that element.

Because difficulty should be ramped also, something like Combined Arms nodes (must use 1* and 2* along with the essential) and high (200+) level opponents. Then for the final throw in a nice 395 Hood-cMags duo or something.

Then you run it weekly....5 DDQ characters M-Fri, and 2 days to try to figure out how to beat the nodes for the 4*.

Sounds like running heroics for 4*'s essentially. Only without the competitive aspect. Could be used to bring back the Puzzle into MPQ.

wirius

Added your excellent idea about 3*'s being required through the DPD. Thanks!

Raffoon

OP, this is a great idea! +1!

Unknown

Dartmaster01 wrote:

I would like more free stuff also, but as someone who has played for a while (almost a year). I think DPs Daily was extremely generous of them. They are giving you 3*s so you can go get the 4*s. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth. Just don't look.

I agree with you but It would also be nice if they trow a 4* once a year.

GothicKratos

I was thinking about something to this effect earlier, actually, but on a bit more of an extended period. My initial thought was monthly, but that seems like maybe a little bit too long? Biweekly seems a little too frequent though. I guess, at the end of the day, even if it was biweekly, it would take six and a half months to cover one guy (and that's assuming the same character is the reward back-to-back, which he wouldn't be).

I dunno, though, to me, it feels kind like that diminishes the value of a 4*. It's supposed to be difficult to build out a 4*.

Unknown

The pace where this 'PvE 4*' deal comes out doesn't matter, but I suggested bi-weekly because that's enough time to address things if things go seriously wrong. Obviously it can be as fast as once every 2.5 days because that's how it works in PvP with the 1000 4* progression threshold, though that's a system where D3 is obviously pretty satisified with the result after numerous tweaks, so I would put the pace for a comparable PvE stuff much slower at the beginning just so that they've time to adjust when/if they totally screw it up.

GothicKratos

Phantron wrote:

The pace where this 'PvE 4*' deal comes out doesn't matter, but I suggested bi-weekly because that's enough time to address things if things go seriously wrong. Obviously it can be as fast as once every 2.5 days because that's how it works in PvP with the 1000 4* progression threshold, though that's a system where D3 is obviously pretty satisified with the result after numerous tweaks, so I would put the pace for a comparable PvE stuff much slower at the beginning just so that they've time to adjust when/if they totally screw it up.

That's fine and well, but everybody can't easily attain that 4* cover in PvP. That's the point I was trying to make. It's supposed to take awhile. It's supposed to be hard.

TazFTW

15 day time period

First 5 days - Cover #1 for the 5 characters in taco tokens
Next 5 days - Cover #2 for the 5 characters in taco tokens
Last 5 days - Cover #3 for the 5 characters in taco tokens

During the same time period there will be another event, Deadpool's Semi-monthly. 5 essential nodes where each node requires one of the taco token characters. Beating 4 of the nodes unlocks a repeatable non-essential sixth node that can award all 3 covers of a 4* (one at a time not all at once hence why it is repeatable).

Also since this is another event to play in addition to PVP, PVE, Daily, and Prologue. #healthpackconspiracy

wirius

GothicKratos wrote:

I was thinking about something to this effect earlier, actually, but on a bit more of an extended period. My initial thought was monthly, but that seems like maybe a little bit too long? Biweekly seems a little too frequent though. I guess, at the end of the day, even if it was biweekly, it would take six and a half months to cover one guy (and that's assuming the same character is the reward back-to-back, which he wouldn't be).

I dunno, though, to me, it feels kind like that diminishes the value of a 4*. It's supposed to be difficult to build out a 4*.

I agree it should be difficult to build a 4*. And under the weekly reward period, if covers are rotated completely, it would take 72 weeks, or a year and 4/5 months to fully cover one. Bi weekly, it takes 144 weeks, or almost 3 YEARS to cover one 4*.

I understand the sentiment of feeling things are easy. But lets back it up with numbers. Can you honestly say a year and 4-5 months to max out a 4* is easy? Should it take almost 3 years to max out one 4*?

IamTheDanger

SnowcaTT wrote:

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

Players say roster slots are expensive, (and they totally are), and we need more Hp to pay for them,.... now we have 2 chances at 1k Hp everyday . (plus doubling the Hp daily rewards)

On that point:

Two tacos per day, each with 4% chance at 250 HP and 0.3% chance of 1,000HP.

New character every two weeks, every 14 tacos, so now you've had about a 50% chance to get 250 ISO [I know statistics don't work this way exactly, but let's just roll for now.]

Next character out is 63rd - already paying 800 HP per roster slot every two weeks, and that will be 850 soon. By end of year it will be 1050 for each.

I've seen this "more HP, roster slots fixed!" argument a few times and it just doesn't add up. Until roster spot costs are lowered (or have a flat cost), any HP added simply won't keep up with the continually increasing slot prices (end crusade rant).

Pleas Don't misunderstand. I agree with what you are saying here. My next slot will cost 3,100 Hp. A roster slot should NOT cost $ 25 USD. That's just ridiculous. I didn't mean that this would be a fix or a solution, just that it helps.

You have to admit, it's a good start. It shows me that D3 is changing the game for the better. And hopefully, some day soon I hope, there will be an actual fix to roster slot cost. And, as you pointed out, new characters every 2 weeks is only making it harder. So, for me, every bit of extra iso, every extra 3*cover, and chances at Hp is a big help. And I plan to take advantage of the DDQs for as long as they are around.

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The pace where this 'PvE 4*' deal comes out doesn't matter, but I suggested bi-weekly because that's enough time to address things if things go seriously wrong. Obviously it can be as fast as once every 2.5 days because that's how it works in PvP with the 1000 4* progression threshold, though that's a system where D3 is obviously pretty satisified with the result after numerous tweaks, so I would put the pace for a comparable PvE stuff much slower at the beginning just so that they've time to adjust when/if they totally screw it up.

That's fine and well, but everybody can't easily attain that 4* cover in PvP. That's the point I was trying to make. It's supposed to take awhile. It's supposed to be hard.

There's no reason why it'd need to be any easier to obtain just because it's PvE. In PvP you've an opportunity to get a 4* every 2.5 days and I don't have a problem with the opportunity being that often in PvE. Now whether they can think of something that'd actually make sense in PvE I have no idea, which is why I don't think they should start with a fast pace because they'll probably screw it up. If you look at the PvP model it's pretty much they expect you to spend a certain amount of HP (cost includes the chance of failure) + play a certain amount to get a pre-designated 4*. If you can duplicate that in PvE it'd work just fine, though due to existence of stuff like Whales it'd be pretty hard to pull this off. At a rough guess I'd have to say you'd need something that's immune to Whales, no boosts of any kind, at least 2 out of 3 members of team is selected by the game or something equally restrictive (e.g. Avengers only), and like the old PvP where you get 3 tries you'd have the option to continue where you failed for 100 HP but you only get 3 continues too (because without it I'm pretty sure a lot of people will never be able to beat it under these conditions).

wirius

Phantron wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The pace where this 'PvE 4*' deal comes out doesn't matter, but I suggested bi-weekly because that's enough time to address things if things go seriously wrong. Obviously it can be as fast as once every 2.5 days because that's how it works in PvP with the 1000 4* progression threshold, though that's a system where D3 is obviously pretty satisified with the result after numerous tweaks, so I would put the pace for a comparable PvE stuff much slower at the beginning just so that they've time to adjust when/if they totally screw it up.

That's fine and well, but everybody can't easily attain that 4* cover in PvP. That's the point I was trying to make. It's supposed to take awhile. It's supposed to be hard.

There's no reason why it'd need to be any easier to obtain just because it's PvE. In PvP you've an opportunity to get a 4* every 2.5 days and I don't have a problem with the opportunity being that often in PvE. Now whether they can think of something that'd actually make sense in PvE I have no idea, which is why I don't think they should start with a fast pace because they'll probably screw it up. If you look at the PvP model it's pretty much they expect you to spend a certain amount of HP (cost includes the chance of failure) + play a certain amount to get a pre-designated 4*. If you can duplicate that in PvE it'd work just fine, though due to existence of stuff like Whales it'd be pretty hard to pull this off. At a rough guess I'd have to say you'd need something that's immune to Whales, no boosts of any kind, at least 2 out of 3 members of team is selected by the game or something equally restrictive (e.g. Avengers only), and like the old PvP where you get 3 tries you'd have the option to continue where you failed for 100 HP but you only get 3 continues too (because without it I'm pretty sure a lot of people will never be able to beat it under these conditions).

I really want to hammer this home. A weekly opportunity will only net you a full 4* in 1 year and 4/5 months IF they don't release any new 4*'s. Examine that, then honestly ask yourself if that is too short, or easy to do.

Also note that I state they could charge 150-300 hp for the opportunity to do the weekly, thus not cutting into their revenue stream.

But again, please examine the numbers and truly ask yourself, "Is it really that easy to max a 4* through the pve if it takes longer to max it through PvE than the game has even been around?"

Unknown

Thing is, it's not just A full 4*, but with the cover rotations as we imagine them, its ALL full 4*s in 1 year 4 months (or 70 weeks) which happens to be when the 4* Thor rewards kick in for daily rewards, rendering everything beyond them pointless. So yes, it's too fast.

wirius

Lerysh wrote:

Thing is, it's not just A full 4*, but with the cover rotations as we imagine them, its ALL full 4*s in 1 year 4 months (or 70 weeks) which happens to be when the 4* Thor rewards kick in for daily rewards, rendering everything beyond them pointless. So yes, it's too fast.

If you notice, they've been releasing a 4* every season to other season now. Meaning we can expect about 6 new 4*'s in a year. No, I don't think obtaining a bunch of four stars for playing the game LONGER than its already been out is too fast. The game may not even be around in another year. And do you think people will keep playing over a year if they don't have an opporunity to get the 4* covers? Eventually you hit the wall, and quite frankly, not everyone wants to pvp for everything. Trust me, people will still be special snow flakes, and there will always be more to earn. But if you don't have a steady promise of something down the road, people quit.

Unknown

If you don't want to PvP for everything, or anything, then you exist in PvE and 4*s don't hinder your ability to play. You either have them, and play a higher baseline PvE, or you don't have them, and play the PvE everyone plays.

The only reason the 4* transition, and even the 3* transition, is a problem is PvP. It's a PvP problem with a PvP solution.

There is a steady progress towards 4*s, and it's in the Daily Rewards. You get XF, then IW, then Fury, then Thor (then Elektra probably then Starlord probably) for playing every day. Once you have all the covers you can save to buy covers, or use your baby XF to try and win covers. I would love to see a DDQ 4* reward, but I just think weekly is too much. Monthly seems right. They are already handing out one PvP cover monthly in Seasons, handing out a PvE cover (that's not a new release) a month as a parity seems right. Faster seems too fast, mainly because their Daily rewards are all over the place when it comes to 4*s. Now it seems like the new character is 30 days after the old character, and the 3 covers come over a period of 30 days. If they were more evenly spread over the 490 days would make more sense but they added them as they were added to the game.

People quit for a variety of reasons. People also stay for a variety of reasons. I personally would not care if they ever released another character ever again. I play the game for the enjoyment of playing, not for the chase of covers or the collector aspect. Some people do play for those aspects and those people are the ones that are upset about 800 HP roster slots and ever expanding character base they can't keep up with.

SnowcaTT

wirius wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Thing is, it's not just A full 4*, but with the cover rotations as we imagine them, its ALL full 4*s in 1 year 4 months (or 70 weeks) which happens to be when the 4* Thor rewards kick in for daily rewards, rendering everything beyond them pointless. So yes, it's too fast.

If you notice, they've been releasing a 4* every season to other season now. Meaning we can expect about 6 new 4*'s in a year. No, I don't think obtaining a bunch of four stars for playing the game LONGER than its already been out is too fast. The game may not even be around in another year. And do you think people will keep playing over a year if they don't have an opporunity to get the 4* covers? Eventually you hit the wall, and quite frankly, not everyone wants to pvp for everything. Trust me, people will still be special snow flakes, and there will always be more to earn. But if you don't have a steady promise of something down the road, people quit.

Agree here, they should be faster. Lerysh points out daily reward times - they really need to start inserting 4*'s earlier in the daily reward rankings (and give folks beyond that point the ones they insert). You can't honestly expect people to play one game for 18 months before even getting a chance to get 4hor covers (or whichever next "best" one comes along).

Which is why you need faster 4* rewards. D3 has stated the 3*-4* transition is -supposed- to be easier than the 2*-3* one: a transition which can take 6-12 months: probably on the low end of that. The covers need to come more easily and faster, and they need to repeat so newbies have a chance to get them just like long-timers, and long-timers can get them again.

wirius

I'm seeing some people who still say, "I feel its too quick." Give numbers to back up what you feel would be just right then to max a 4* through pve then. The current proposed system takes 1 year and 5 months to max a 4* once you obtain that first cover. If you think this is too quick, PLEASE give an alternative. For example, biweekly is 3 years. A monthly 4 reward would take 6 years, and all of these calculations are assuming no new four*'s are released and put into this rotation.