Cage Match - Feb 18 - 20 - Season X1

Unknown

rush4093 wrote:

I personally would chose to go against a 270 Xforce over a 249 Patch anytime. At least with Xforce you can match damage him down while denying AP whereas with Patch he will just heal for anything that isn't a huge cascade or special ability. I also think Berserker Rage is far more devastating than X-force and possibly surgical strike depending on the board. If you have no way of clearing out the enemy strike tiles you're looking at huge damage in return.

Not having a Goddess I'll be using mags and loki. They pretty much work perfectly with there being only 1 shared active color and multiple abilities that can cause cascades.

You're not wrong - Patch actually scales better than X-Force, but outside of powered up hypotheticals, its relatively moot

ynglink

So didn't really place at all in the last 2 PvP's, but this one I'm gunnin' for some prizes. Started about an hour ago and am currently in the Top 10. Here's hoping to top 5! (Xforce while nice, isn't as important to me right now)

Unknown

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

I remember when I sold my set of Wills for only $20 a piece when I quit MTG. I also sold all my dual lands for $20 per. Sadface

rush4093

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

I fully agree that surgical is the best ability in the game. At the same time though if there are only a handful of tiles on the board or if the ap you gain is not usable it isn't quite as effective. Berserker only requires a few green tiles to be on the board and it is heavy damage for more than just 1 turn. The smallest cascade can be just as bad as taking a surgical. As a player we have a choice but the ai will just use the abilities with reckless abandon.

The main point though was that I've seen a few people say in alliance chat and here that they are glad to not have to deal with xforce, but I feel xforce is a whole lot easier to keep at bay than a buffed patch while you build up ap to take him out.

Unknown

rush4093 wrote:

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

I fully agree that surgical is the best ability in the game. At the same time though if there are only a handful of tiles on the board or if the ap you gain is not usable it isn't quite as effective. Berserker only requires a few green tiles to be on the board and it is heavy damage for more than just 1 turn. The smallest cascade can be just as bad as taking a surgical. As a player we have a choice but the ai will just use the abilities with reckless abandon.

The main point though was that I've seen a few people say in alliance chat and here that they are glad to not have to deal with xforce, but I feel xforce is a whole lot easier to keep at bay than a buffed patch while you build up ap to take him out.

Except TBTI is 14 red, which is a lot more than 11 black, isn't always lethal, doesn't drain and gives the opponent an advantage. Zerker Rage is symmetrical most time the AI uses it, and hard countered by Loki.

There is nothing that counters surgical. If it lands, you're pretty screwed, unless you somehow managed to keep your strongest color almost completely off the board, which ins't something that's often under your control.

NorthernPolarity

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

Well if X-Force is Force of Will, then Surge + Smite is Time Vault + Voltaic Key. Force of Will is very strong, a staple in legacy, and helps you win the game, but doesn't just straight up win you the game since it is merely okay vs hyper scaled PvE opponents. Surge + Smite just straight up wins you the game against any opponent the game currently has to offer.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

Well if X-Force is Force of Will, then Surge + Smite is Time Vault + Voltaic Key. Force of Will is very strong, a staple in legacy, and helps you win the game, but doesn't just straight up win you the game since it is merely okay vs hyper scaled PvE opponents. Surge + Smite just straight up wins you the game against any opponent the game currently has to offer.

It's more like Academy Ruins+Mindslaver. Takes a bunch of time to set up, but wins outright after it's done, and there's a bunch of things you can do to get in the way before it goes off.

vudu3

ark123 wrote:

There is nothing that counters surgical. If it lands, you're pretty screwed, unless you somehow managed to keep your strongest color almost completely off the board, which ins't something that's often under your control.

Surgical Strike is easy to counter--it's countered by you using it before the AI can. 99% of the time you face X-Force you're doing so in PVP and you have your own X-Force. At high-end play there's a good chance that your strongest color is also your opponent's strongest color.

Unknown

How nice is this no Xforce PVP. I can finally shield hop like intended.

Boosted Patch is perfection. True heal, tanking almost all important colors...this event is awe......


Nvm, gamora

Unknown

The number of characters people are successfully getting up in the ranks with is about 5x higher than when XForce is in the game. I am actually strategizing based on the opponents team in this event and not automatically taking an opponent with a low health character (aka a free win with xforce). The obvious oppression in character choice couldn't be more clear. Nerf X-Force. It will make the game more fun.

Unknown

Thor can't even set up Smite + Surge by herself. How is she supposed to kill the first person that enables a Smite + Surge combo? Ironically it's usually X Force's overwhelming offense that downs the first person unless you're talking about either 20 red or 18 blue and those are already game-winning amount of AP with even fairly weak characters that can combo in any meaningful capacity. I don't know why people overrate Thor so much just because she can appear to infinite. It's like in MTG where they consider it okay to infinite with 5-6 mana because 5-6 mana bomb spells is supposed to outright win the game and infinite is just another way of winning the game and the game doesn't care if you win by 1 damage or 1 billion damage. A very optimistic setup for the Thor's theoractical 'beat anyone' combo requires 8g (X Force), 10r (Smite), and 9blue (Power Surge), and that's an awfully weak 'anyone' qualification when you assume your X Force is supposed to knock out the first 'anyone' so that you can Smite and Surge on the second person. More realistically it's going to be 11black + 8g + 10r + 9blue to knock out anyone worth mentioning in PvE and as weak as PvP featured heroes have become due to format, one X Force is not always enough to take out the featured guy. The only team that you can definitely win with 8g + 10r + 9blue would be something like X Force + Loki or The Hood + featured, but that team also wins nearly 100% against a X Force + Thor team (AI can't possibly hang against either of the two support's massive AP advantage). You might have an advantage in shield hopping because Thor still has more HP but that's about it. In a non boosted situation your team is probably way weaker because it is easy how a bad board causes you to lose to X Force + Loki/The Hood, while it'd take an incredibly bad board to lose to X Force+Thor while you have either Loki or The Hood on your side.

I still don't get why people even talk about attacking Patch first. That's just something you never do. Is it really that hard to figure this out? And if the team is something lke Patch + Daken + nobody, you'll live with not being able to do match damage for a while against a team that has exactly one threatening move (Berserker Rage). Note that if the third person is anyone that's actually good, you could just attack that person first while collecting AP needed to defeat the regen guys later.

Trisul

Luke Cage would be a pretty funny third wheel to that Patch/Daken team. Or something like Patch/Hood/Cage.

Maximum annoyance.

Unknown

Trisul wrote:

Luke Cage would be a pretty funny third wheel to that Patch/Daken team. Or something like Patch/Hood/Cage.

Maximum annoyance.

But having Cage on the team already reduces match damage to next to nothing, so the fact that Daken/Patch is already more or less immune to match damage doesn't make it any more annoying. Sure I can see you look at the team at a glance and say "what the???" but it's really not any more annoying than usual. Likewise since Cage already protects Hood from match damage, the additional inclusion of Patch doesn't make this team any more annoying. They're still going to try to down Hood regardless of who else is on the team.

That said, I don't think most players think rationally so if it'll fool people into thinking skipping your team, then that's still a good team even if you're getting nothing extra out of having someone who can regen once Cage is on the team (his red pretty much makes everyone on the team ignore match damage).

Unknown

jsj357 wrote:

The number of characters people are successfully getting up in the ranks with is about 5x higher than when XForce is in the game. I am actually strategizing based on the opponents team in this event and not automatically taking an opponent with a low health character (aka a free win with xforce). The obvious oppression in character choice couldn't be more clear. Nerf X-Force. It will make the game more fun.

This is why I believe, especially since we're already using an ELO system, weekly bans could do wonders for this game.

Unknown

vudu3 wrote:

ark123 wrote:

There is nothing that counters surgical. If it lands, you're pretty screwed, unless you somehow managed to keep your strongest color almost completely off the board, which ins't something that's often under your control.

Surgical Strike is easy to counter--it's countered by you using it before the AI can. 99% of the time you face X-Force you're doing so in PVP and you have your own X-Force. At high-end play there's a good chance that your strongest color is also your opponent's strongest color.

Yep. In mtg the counter to Force of Will is playing blue and having Force of Will.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

ark123 wrote:

rush4093 wrote:

possibly surgical strike depending on the board.

It's not.

Surgical is huge damage, cascade and ap drain at the same time - and it's the best skill in all of those categories. There is no skill that tops it in the game, and hopefully there won't be for a long time. The only thing even remotely comparable is goddess blue, and that can be symmetrical in some situations. Surgical is just one and done.

In magic the gathering terms, Xforce is Force of Will. Clearly extremely overpowered, clearly game defining every time he's present, and only really available to those willing to shell out the bucks or spend a TON of time playing the game. And only allowed to stick around because those with money all have him.

Well if X-Force is Force of Will, then Surge + Smite is Time Vault + Voltaic Key. Force of Will is very strong, a staple in legacy, and helps you win the game, but doesn't just straight up win you the game since it is merely okay vs hyper scaled PvE opponents. Surge + Smite just straight up wins you the game against any opponent the game currently has to offer.

If it's Vault+Key, then you have a Mana Crypt in play, and had to tap out and pass the turn to get Vault+Key down. Sure, you're likely going to win once you get to untap, but there's still a possibility (albeit a small one) that your opponent has a Nature's Claim, can drop a Null Rod, Dack Fayden and their own piece of the combo, etc. Or you just don't find your actual win-con before you lose enough flips to your Crypt.

I've definitely had situations where I drop Surge on opposing Goddess, Smite down someone (usually XF) and can't gather enough AP to kill Goddess before she gets another chance at me, and get surged or smited back. Maybe it only happens one in 100 games, but it is a possibility.


Either way, I'm enjoying Cage Match quite a bit. Patch+Goddess is fun, and unlike the last time this ran, I've got Loki maxed out and built right, and it's quite fun.

mjh

pretty pissed about this pvp. I have never wiped 3 back-to-back matches. EVER.

This proves a prediction I had that the only way to compete is to have 4hor. And the only way to get 4hor is to have 4hor making the game truly P2W.

If I don't get 1k this pvp with my 166/249 boosted Patch and other 166 roster (excluding 4hor) I am calling it quits. This blue 4hor wouldn't even put me at 5/3/5, just help me get there. Shows how broken this game is.

I have been waiting since fall for 4hor blue as the final progression reward (FPR). I missed it the last time, it was before shield nerf but right after time shards were implemented. Joined a light bracket and never got it. Now it's back and this

Unknown

Thor needs a 4+3 match plus something else (you sure aren't killing the first guy with Thor) to get her supposed infinite going. That'd be equivalent of a combo deck and a 4 match move is probably a 5 mana drop in MTG and bomb MTG cards are already supposed to win the game in that tier, and here you need 3 bombs to pull this stuff (Smite, Surge, and probably X Force to kill the first guy) and it only works in an environment that's friendly to said combos (whenever featured character is weak enough to be reliably killed by a single X Force). I think it can be compared to something like a Splinter Twin + anything creature that untaps a creature as it comes into play but I'd think it's considerably easier to assemble these pieces in MTG compared to getting 4/3/3 matches without boosts (and if you use boosts there are all kinds of crazy you can already do) and MTG didn't have a problem with that. Now I know that the environment in general is very friendly to Thor seeing that at least half of the events tend to featured a character that can be killed by a single X Force, but that should be a problem with the environment not the character. It's not unlike how big creatures aren't very useful in MTG when Doom Blade was in the rotation. Thor's inabiilty to deal with first character is not a big deal when the first character is almost always weak. I also found that in this event, without X Force it's considerably harder to drop the first character, because you can't just drop a Berserker Rage without all the other pieces are ready so even though Berserker Rage will also get rid of one weak character easily, you can't just use it right away like X Force can, not to mention using X Force or Surgical Strike generally allows you to pick up the AP you need to get your combo going due to their massive AP generation powers.

Totally unrelated to this, but there was big battle circle game of MTG I was playing and everyone agreed to beatdown on the rich guy with Power 9, so he asked to go first and he cheated and drew his entire library on the first turn, and before that match I was reading the new cards and saw Force of Will and was thinking 'wow this card is pretty overpowered' and thought about trying to get 4 of them but did not. Had I drew a Force of Will, it'd have been enough to stop a guy with Power 9 that's also cheating because I could've easily countered whatever spell he was using that got his infinite combo going, so yeah, that's pretty overpowered.

Unknown

mjh wrote:

pretty pissed about this pvp. I have never wiped 3 back-to-back matches. EVER.

This proves a prediction I had that the only way to compete is to have 4hor. And the only way to get 4hor is to have 4hor making the game truly P2W.

If I don't get 1k this pvp with my 166/249 boosted Patch and other 166 roster (excluding 4hor) I am calling it quits. This blue 4hor wouldn't even put me at 5/3/5, just help me get there. Shows how broken this game is.

I have been waiting since fall for 4hor blue as the final progression reward (FPR). I missed it the last time, it was before shield nerf but right after time shards were implemented. Joined a light bracket and never got it. Now it's back and this

I just got my blue 4hor cover for 1000 progression with max Patch/max Blade/159 Hood. Had to shield a couple times, but never really had a ton of trouble. I ran up early, too. I'm in slice 4 with 24+ hours to go. Only used boosts on the last two-match hop because both were 44 points and I wanted to clear it without taking a hit and needing another hop later.