Why do you think heroic events suck?

Hulk11
Hulk11 Posts: 435
edited January 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
I'm not sure why people think these matches suck. I've payed attention to what people say they like and hate, and heroic events are one of them. Before I say my opinion I'd like to hear the people's reasons.
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Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    They invariably devolve into repeatedly fighting extremely high level bullseye+daken or ares+daken or rags+feeders over and over, usually with only subpar characters available
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm having fun using Blade/Spidey/Torch. I don't use Spidey and Torch much, and only leveled Blade recently. But yeah, the main thing is the same villains over and over. They just need to add more villains, and then retroactively mix them into event nodes, then PVE would be a lot less boring.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited January 2015
    Yeah, you WISH yelena was included that often

    (It's just Lethal Recon teamups in every battle)
  • Moon Roach
    Moon Roach Posts: 2,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:
    Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye Yelena Ares Daken Juggernaut Venom Ragnarok Moonstone Bullseye

    And after the first few clears it's for only 20 ISO. Never forget the 20 ISO. The soul-crushing, practically useless, 20 ISO.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Heroic events have historically been the worst events in the game. The main reasons for why people thought so are the following:
    1. Limited rosters - with only 3 3* characters available, lots of people didn't have them and got locked out of the heroic.
    2. Terrible team synergy - some of the team compositions that were offered before were completely idiotic and had no synergy whatsoever. Falcon / LazyThor / Hulk, for instance.
    3. No subs. Repeatedly grinding the same nodes in Heroic juggernaut for 3 days straight, and getting 20 iso every time and no sub awards was the essence of soul crushing.
    4. Stupid scaling. This actually coincided with no subs: since the same nodes are being grinded repeatedly, community scaling increased the node levels to insane amounts because there weren't subs that reset the levels.

    This has for the most part been almost completely addressed with the new heroic:
    1. Additional characters available for each sub has made the limited rosters issue less of an issue, and the characters chosen are all old characters that most people have at least oen of.
    2. Torch / Blade / Spidey is a fine rainbow team that actually works reasonably well.
    3/4: we have subs! yay!

    People generally just have bitter memories of the previous heroics because of those couple of terrible ones. Heroic Oscorp for Daredevil last year, for instance, was the worst event I have ever played in MPQ history. Generally speaking, if future heroics are all going to be like this Heroic Oscorp, then we might see more people liking the format. I for one, love to play with characters that I haven't touched in ages, and Heroic Oscorp lets me do that with Spidey / Torch because *Phantron mode on*, there isn't an XF or Ladythor to obsolete every single other character in the game for heroics.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I will say I do like the fact there are extra usable heroes in the first sub over the main. I'm hoping that's a new feature of heroics and it will be different additional heroes in each of the subs that make up the event.

    Overall though, Heroics are unpopular because of the limited roster and limited opposition I guess. Personally I don't mind them because they are the PvE option that somewhat rewards having a fuller roster rather than just the handful of usable heroes that'll get you through PvP and almost every PvE.

    Having said that heroics often benefit 2* players who have any covers in the essential 3* because there are far fewer (arguably no) bad 2*s that get offered up in heroics compared to 3*s.
  • Hulk11
    Hulk11 Posts: 435
    Glad to see the responses. My opinion is I do like it cause it's short. The limited roster was a drawback but after seeing how short it is to get through, I don't even notice the limited roster anymore. Sure it would be worse with more matches to to play with the same characters, but it's not, so it doesn't seem so bad. Nothing special but it seems so much quicker to finish.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hulk11 wrote:
    Glad to see the responses. My opinion is I do like it cause it's short. The limited roster was a drawback but after seeing how short it is to get through, I don't even notice the limited roster anymore. Sure it would be worse with more matches to to play with the same characters, but it's not, so it doesn't seem so bad. Nothing special but it seems so much quicker to finish.

    I as a veteran love it because it lets me play with char combos that I would never play otherwise (Spidey / Torch / Blade is super fun compared to dumb old XF / GT). But you can easily see how someone without these heroes are going to get completely locked out and be pissed that they can't play with their XF and their best team is some 2* composition while having scaling that assumes as if you have XF.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Instead of doing something reasonable like giving you double or triple points for using heroic characters, they instead force you to use the same team over and over, making the play style mind numbing and substandard. The only reason I like it is because if I actually have those characters usable, competition is trivial.

    Also didn't they say something like "We want you to choose which characters to have," but with this type of event it's like "HAHAHA We punished you for choosing characters!" Makes d3 seem like huge tiny kitties.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    My take on this is that scaling is the biggest culprit, of course because of and combined with the other reasons. For the portion of scaling that takes into account recent past performance you can often start out with some pretty tough nodes and your 2* options get scaled out quickly. Now I have all the 3* but not all of them are leveled much so that can really be an issue a day into a 2.5 day event. Then you get the 'no synergy' issue and a full 3* team wouldn't even be all that good. Last scaling again...you don't want to fight overleveled juggs and daken and Ares much even with xforce, so you sure don't want to with a no-synergy under leveled 3* team or even maxed 2*.

    But as pointed out oscorp has fixed most of these issues with scaling back on length (it was 6.5 days last time) and having subs and additional chars to use over normal. I actually really like the idea of heroics to get people using guys they don't normally and maybe we find some underused combos that are actually decent. They just haven't been crafted very well lately, but this is a big step in the right direction.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The reason: scaling is calculated based on your entire roster, not on your characters that are actually playable.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I'm going to take issue with the assertion that Human Torch and Blade work well on a team together. One of them gets more powerful by leaving red tiles on the board. One of them has a strong and cheap red skill. That's not synergy, it's antagonism.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vertigozooropa wrote:
    I'm going to take issue with the assertion that Human Torch and Blade work well on a team together. One of them gets more powerful by leaving red tiles on the board. One of them has a strong and cheap red skill. That's not synergy, it's antagonism.

    Potato, potahto. You see antisynergy, I see an interesting decision on when to leave red up to get blade strike tiles and when to start matching red for fireball. The optimal choice is far from being easy and clear. Of course, the synergy isn't 100% ideal, but it isn't going to be on most rainbow team compositions, and theres enough interesting interactions with Blade Torch Spidey (Spidey actually feels like a good defensive support on this team) to make the team overall fun. I think the most important thing about the team is that you have good options in all colors, and they can all mesh to form a coherent game plan of "clog the board and kill em with special tiles, with a fireball thrown in there". Far better than the LazyThor / Falcon / Hulk gameplan of: "LazyThor kills everyone. Falcon clears a goon tile every once in a while, Hulk tanks an anger every once in a while". At least with Blade / Torch / Spidey you feel like every character contributes significantly to the team in one way or another.
  • Lidolas
    Lidolas Posts: 500
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Heroic events have historically been the worst events in the game. The main reasons for why people thought so are the following:
    1. Limited rosters - with only 3 3* characters available, lots of people didn't have them and got locked out of the heroic.
    2. Terrible team synergy - some of the team compositions that were offered before were completely idiotic and had no synergy whatsoever. Falcon / LazyThor / Hulk, for instance.
    3. No subs. Repeatedly grinding the same nodes in Heroic juggernaut for 3 days straight, and getting 20 iso every time and no sub awards was the essence of soul crushing.
    4. Stupid scaling. This actually coincided with no subs: since the same nodes are being grinded repeatedly, community scaling increased the node levels to insane amounts because there weren't subs that reset the levels.

    This has for the most part been almost completely addressed with the new heroic:
    1. Additional characters available for each sub has made the limited rosters issue less of an issue, and the characters chosen are all old characters that most people have at least oen of.
    2. Torch / Blade / Spidey is a fine rainbow team that actually works reasonably well.
    3/4: we have subs! yay!

    People generally just have bitter memories of the previous heroics because of those couple of terrible ones. Heroic Oscorp for Daredevil last year, for instance, was the worst event I have ever played in MPQ history. Generally speaking, if future heroics are all going to be like this Heroic Oscorp, then we might see more people liking the format. I for one, love to play with characters that I haven't touched in ages, and Heroic Oscorp lets me do that with Spidey / Torch because *Phantron mode on*, there isn't an XF or Ladythor to obsolete every single other character in the game for heroics.

    I agree with everything on NP's list of complaints and the fixes. But I do think he forgot to add that the 1-2* bad guys are horribly over-powered when they are buffed to the levels seen in heroics. In the Juggs heroic, fighting node after node of headbutts is tiring and frustrating. AI doesn't have to worry about health packs. On a less painful scale, Daken was given a 3rd power after these events were created. They've never been adjusted for that.

    I don't hate them like other forumites do, but they are a bit tedious. I'd love to finish the Dark Reign arc and move on to another story.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Vertigozooropa wrote:
    I'm going to take issue with the assertion that Human Torch and Blade work well on a team together. One of them gets more powerful by leaving red tiles on the board. One of them has a strong and cheap red skill. That's not synergy, it's antagonism.

    Potato, potahto. You see antisynergy, I see an interesting decision on when to leave red up to get blade strike tiles and when to start matching red for fireball. The optimal choice is far from being easy and clear. Of course, the synergy isn't 100% ideal, but it isn't going to be on most rainbow team compositions, and theres enough interesting interactions with Blade Torch Spidey (Spidey actually feels like a good defensive support on this team) to make the team overall fun. I think the most important thing about the team is that you have good options in all colors, and they can all mesh to form a coherent game plan of "clog the board and kill em with special tiles, with a fireball thrown in there". Far better than the LazyThor / Falcon / Hulk gameplan of: "LazyThor kills everyone. Falcon clears a goon tile every once in a while, Hulk tanks an anger every once in a while". At least with Blade / Torch / Spidey you feel like every character contributes significantly to the team in one way or another.
    You leave a board full of red for Juggernaut, Ares, or Ragnarok....
    Not me
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    fmftint wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Vertigozooropa wrote:
    I'm going to take issue with the assertion that Human Torch and Blade work well on a team together. One of them gets more powerful by leaving red tiles on the board. One of them has a strong and cheap red skill. That's not synergy, it's antagonism.

    Potato, potahto. You see antisynergy, I see an interesting decision on when to leave red up to get blade strike tiles and when to start matching red for fireball. The optimal choice is far from being easy and clear. Of course, the synergy isn't 100% ideal, but it isn't going to be on most rainbow team compositions, and theres enough interesting interactions with Blade Torch Spidey (Spidey actually feels like a good defensive support on this team) to make the team overall fun. I think the most important thing about the team is that you have good options in all colors, and they can all mesh to form a coherent game plan of "clog the board and kill em with special tiles, with a fireball thrown in there". Far better than the LazyThor / Falcon / Hulk gameplan of: "LazyThor kills everyone. Falcon clears a goon tile every once in a while, Hulk tanks an anger every once in a while". At least with Blade / Torch / Spidey you feel like every character contributes significantly to the team in one way or another.
    You leave a board full of red for Juggernaut, Ares, or Ragnarok....
    Not me

    viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18125&start=300#p280316, not exactly.
  • dider152
    dider152 Posts: 263
    It's just the limited roster. I hate having anything limited, especially when you have to use the same characters that are constantly hurt and need one of the limited health packs. In modes like this, they should add extra health packs as rewards from the nodes.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    1. Limited character availability.
    2. One long node, not sub nodes for additional token/Iso awards.
    3. Lack of subnodes makes grinding the same fights over and over again be worth 20 ISO very quickly.
    4. Rubberbanding was always out of control due to no limitation of points, due to the lack of subnodes.
    5. Forces you to keep **** 2 and 1 star characters on your roster just to have enough characters to play, due to the limited character availability.

    So, I guess it could be shortened to limited character availability and no sub nodes.

    I haven't started this last heroic event yet, so maybe they've fixed some of these problems. I dunno.
  • Lidolas
    Lidolas Posts: 500
    Vertigozooropa wrote:
    I'm going to take issue with the assertion that Human Torch and Blade work well on a team together. One of them gets more powerful by leaving red tiles on the board. One of them has a strong and cheap red skill. That's not synergy, it's antagonism.

    That's only one color out of 6. What I like with HT and Blade is the synergy between Blade's strikes and Torch's count down tiles and attack tiles (if you use black for that) Having a choice between collecting reds or not is nice, for me.

    Adding Spidey in there is great for mixing the passive and active purpletile.png powers, a cheap stun and the all-powerful temporary healing when needed.

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