The effects of shield cool downs

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  • MajinDavid
    MajinDavid Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
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    I really dont see the problem with the new changes. I was sitting at 715 points when i went to sleep, unshielded and normally doing that means an hour later im at 500 when i wake up or less. So far ive been hit once because im assuming there are more targets to choose from. I agree that progression rewards need to be dropped for sure. Maybe to 1k for the 4*. But this means i can now save my hp fully for more covers. Ive got enough saved up that as soon as my purple cover for doo. Comes in he will be a 2nd one making him 4/5/2 for his next event after hood.
  • zonatahunt wrote:
    I understand there are multiple threads concerning everyones thought and opinions regarding the newly implemented shield cool downs. Whether I should have just included the thoughts I'll share with you below in a preexisting thread I leave up to you. However, I thought that my concerns regarding the impact shield cool downs had for me on the game deserved their own platform (plus I had 0.02 cents laying around, so why not!). I don't want this post to be a rant about how horrendous this new game feature is considered by some, but truly just how it impacted my game play.

    1. The "fun" was sucked out of the PvP event

    Simply put, I felt handcuffed. The climb to 600+ felt like every other PvP event that came before it. I'm a player with almost 20+ maxed 3*s, but have only ever purchased HP to shield hop. All my ISO and a lot of HP came from continual playtime and a lot of effort. With my roster I usually see the 166 wall by 500 points, and the 2 out of 3 maxed 4*s by 600 points. As I said, everything was working properly until I had to drop my first shield. Usually once I drop a shield I'll wait about fifteen minutes for anyone who was fighting me or had me in their queue to attack; at that point I'd unshield and go for three matches before shielding. Sadly though, I found that I couldn't do that because of the newly implemented cool down times. Instead I moved over to the PvE. Well, after going through all the nodes once it's not smart to hit them again until they've refreshed on their own (only way to maximize points). Next..........wait, there was no next. The game was finished for me. This was the first time in a long time that I found myself simply having to set the game aside involuntarily and find other things to do with my life. Granted, the bathroom needed cleaning and the laundry needed a wash, but I can't believe I felt forced by the developers to set their game down. It was a weird experience, as being a consumer of a product I can't remember ever having my crack dealer ask me to "set down the pipe and do something else for a while". It was a paradox that my feeble mind was having problems comprehending; a game mechanic that forces you do put down the game. Weird.

    The fun was beginning to disappear because of my lack of play time. Okay, the eight hour shield was just five hours into it's life, so it was time to jump and throw down a three hour shield. My strategy was that by the time the three hour was up I'd lay down another eight hour shield (trying not to drop 300 HP at a single time on the 24-hour shield unless absolutely necessary). As I began to prepare to unshield I quickly scrolled through the leaderboard. Unlike leaderboards in the past, where playtime only has short periods of respite, this board had been dormant to me for over five hours. Not a lot had changed, but the names weren't as lively in my brain as they had been in the past and I wasn't able to follow the behavior of the other leaders like I did before; if you're leapfrogging back and forth with others you learn how they play...which makes competition more intense, ultimately producing a more satisfactory and fun experience. Well, that aspect of gameplay no longer existed for me and I instantly felt that I simply was making a "jump" to make a jump and stay in the top five, instead of jumping competitively for the fun of it. This loss of gameplay experience only became more apparent as the match went on. By it's conclusion I was glad it was over, not because I landed top five, but because it was the most unenjoyable PvP I'd played in over a year. Just two weeks ago I spent the last three hours of a PvP playing leapfrog with an opponent from a great alliance. Our scores were only fifteen points apart for almost the entirety of those last three hours, and if it hadn't have been for a loss on their part (something I could see by watching the leaderboard every other minute to observe their behavior) I think I would have lost the event. However, I put in a final jump in the last minute and came out 15 points ahead with 1800+ points (I think). That match was epic in my mind. I could care less about how much HP I burnt (but I'm sure D3 loved it), and even though I like the blue 4hor cover I received as top prize, the competition was an instant classic! If the person I battled reads this I really want you to know that I had a blast. I know I won, but I would have been more than content if I had come in second because of how much enjoyment the competition was. All of the aforementioned joy I've been babbling about....absent entirely because of shield cool downs. That's a HUGE issue that the developers shouldn't overlook.

    2. Heavy-hitting rosters got a big time buff!

    I don't have a single maxed 4*. My X-Force it sitting at a 553 build with a level of 231. I find that his stats don't change enough for me to increase his level 39 more times. Having said that, while I have all the other 4* characters, none of them are above level 125 (4hor). Therefore I generally run my 553 Deadpool alongside XF and whomever is the featured 3* of the PvP. Deadpool's red is cheap and hits heavy, while his purple has great AoE damage. It's a great team that kills other teams in under 30 seconds (a must when you're sitting above 1300 points in a PvP). Sometimes I can even devastate a fully maxed 4hor, XF, and Fury team with mine in under a minute. The problem with the best team I can build to remain highly competitive and sit atop the scoreboard with the best of them, is that it has no defensive value. No one will pass on a 50-point team like mine, especially if there are other 50-point teams out there that are comprised of fully maxed 4*s. This wasn't an issue in the past because I could simply unshield, fight one or two matches (usually one when your worth is more than 1500 points), then shield up and avoid damage. However, with cool downs I can't jump as often as I need to keep the pace with maxed 4* teams. They can still climb because their rosters don't need to stay shielded constantly like mine because their rosters possess ample defensive deterrent. That gap between me and a maxed 4* team is now going to grow exponentially because cool downs will hinder my ability to remain competitive against those teams in the new PvP landscape. As I said, I started from scratch and have only ever spent real money on HP. I've never bought a cover or ISO. All my covers have been pulled through tokens or through PvP placement rewards (98% of my covers were gained this way...at least). Now I'll need to start actually purchasing covers to max my 4* teams just so I can build that scary defensive team; this though is something that will never become reality though, as I refuse to spend the money necessary to do so. Simply put, cool downs bring non-deterrent 4* defensive teams to their knees at a certain point and give all the momentum for the top of the leaderboards to those with the ultimate rosters. Our whales are gonna grrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

    3. Progression rewards are unattainable.

    Last season I tallied 16,000+ points. That was a great season; not as good as Season 8, but really good. I achieved that mark because the game was built to allow anyone with a halfway decent 3* roster to compete with the whales. As I stated in the previous section, my star team could jump fast and keep up with the best (well, not the 3000+ point whales). The only thing I needed was determination and HP to jump with. After the two tokens at 300 and 900 (ultimately always a Moonstone or Hawkeye), the only two progression rewards that I really looked forward to were the guaranteed cover at 1100 and the 4* at 1300. Those two rewards were instrumental in me getting my roster to where it is today. I only have my 4hor where she is today cover-wise because of those 1300 point rewards. And too many times after a new character is released I was always able to obtain another of their covers (one I always needed) in their first PvP at the 1100 point mark. So, todays PvP left me with 909 points. Nowhere near the 1100 mark I'll need to reach if I want Luke Cage's red cover in the now current PvP. Honestly, I don't know how I'll reach that mark. Do any of you?

    4. Why can't shields possess dual functionality?

    As I was playing the aforementioned PvP where I scored 909, I had more than ample time to think about the functionality of shields. The developers of MPQ have stated that one of the main reasons that shield cool downs were implemented was because shields were being abused. Basically, they were initially introduced into the MPQ landscape to provide safety to a person's score (not their ranking, as that isn't dependent upon their gameplay alone). To many players were complaining about hitting that wall, you know the wall where your points get high enough that where every game you play and gain 30 points you lose 80+ in the process. It was infuriating and something needed to be done. Shields were invented and almost everyone was ecstatic. Soon though, many began to revolutionize the way shields were used. Shields were no longer being used to keep your points static and safe, but instead be began to use them as the main mechanic to coordinate with our alliance mates and hop. Scores soared from that point on; but only for a few. Btw, I would like to share with everyone that I am part of 5 Deadly Venoms, and while we do have a great chat room, I've NEVER coordinated with any of my alliance mates any hops. Never have I used them as points after they've shielded, unless I just happened to come upon them while I was browsing available targets. Many believe that shield hopping needed precise coordinated back-and-forths between alliance mates, but that is simply untrue. The best PvP I ever had was over 2300+ points...and I did it all by myself. All I did was fight, shield, wait, unshield, fight, shield, wait......and so on.

    So I ask again, why can't shields possess dual functionality? For players like my daughter who are just making the 2* to 3* transition, she is beginning to use shields. She uses them the way they were intended. She gets into the top twenty-five, shields, and collects two much needed 3* covers. She's never once shield hopped. That strategy works for her at her placement in the game. She has no chance of every placing 1st right now; as she doesn't have the roster or the resources. I was there once too. However, as my roster grew as a result of being able to shield, I was able to start using teams in PvPs that let me truly compete for top five. Now that top five was a possibility the risk vs reward for HP use in shield hopping became a reality. The reward began to outweigh the risk and I began to hop. It was my time. I had put in the time, I had foregone sleep. It was finally my time to have a chance to compete at top five. So I began to shield hop. From that point on my roster has become even stronger. I expect to place top five, as I put in the time and I risk the HP necessary to hop. I'm not guaranteed placement, but I know my chances are good. Since I don't buy ISO that 5000 ISO from top five is HUGE to me. I have been able to level a 3* at a rate of about one every two weeks now. However, I fear that will all change, and very drastically due to shield cool downs.

    Conclusion

    As I said, this wasn't a rant. All I did was share my thoughts and my gameplay experience with all of you. However, I fear that even though this is a massive negative gameplay mechanic that was implemented, the developers won't change the game back to how it was, or at least to a landscape that doesn't hinder development and actually make their consumers put down and walk away from their product (I'm not talking about never coming back, but instead the now mandatory blocks of time where you can't play the game). We as consumers of MPQ are always told by the developers that they need to see the data before they consider altering any mechanics of the game, and if the data dictates a move should be made then they probably will. However, all I can do is thing back to our poor old friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. He needed a nerf; but he got the double whammy. That was a LONG time ago. Sadly, the most popular character in the Marvel universe now lays dusty and unplayed by almost all. His data dictates he needs a power skill. The data dictates he needs a buff. Spidey has seen no buff, nor do I foresee a change to shield cool downs. I hope I'm wrong, as I was very happy giving MPQ my time and my $$ for HP. If things stay the way they are I think it's a very realistic possibility that one of these times one of the developer created mandatory shield cool downs might become a permanent leave from the game. Once again, I don't want that to happen, but cool downs in my opinion are unnecessary and should be gotten rid of.....quickly.

    Thanks for the time ya'll.

    I would say PVP is more more boring than before. Every one just fight to a related high sources shield and sleep. This never solve any problem. There are no Strategies now.... you need to choice when to shield at last but now? no just fight the highest points and shield the shorter it is ...........In my slice the top ten is shield before 3hr end.........the placement just doesnt change.....it is boring
  • Chrono_Tata
    Chrono_Tata Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    benben77 wrote:
    I would say PVP is more more boring than before. Every one just fight to a related high sources shield and sleep. This never solve any problem. There are no Strategies now.... you need to choice when to shield at last but now? no just fight the highest points and shield the shorter it is ...........In my slice the top ten is shield before 3hr end.........the placement just doesnt change.....it is boring
    This is true on the last 2 brackets I've been as well. I've finished top 5 on the last 2 previous events and the optimal strategy is to shield all the way to the end. This is because there will be lower-point players lining you up and then breaking shield to attack you in the last 5 minutes. On both events I have stay shielded and both times got 2-3 defensive losses notification in the last 5 minutes. I think other players have noticed this as well and generally tend to stay shielded right to the end (maybe 1 last 3-minute push at least but even that's extremely dangerous). It's made the top rankings very stationary these days.

    I'm sure the devs would tell us that these last minute scramblings for the top positions and/or hard-to-reach progression rewards are unfun and the change is working as intended. Just like how no one actually enjoyed persistent healing and how Moonstone is a really good character for dealing with special tiles.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?
  • zonatahunt
    zonatahunt Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker
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    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?

    This...completely. As I said before, even with mainly a maxed 166 roster I could keep pace with the 4*s, but not anymore.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
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    zonatahunt wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?

    This...completely. As I said before, even with mainly a maxed 166 roster I could keep pace with the 4*s, but not anymore.

    When I said newbies, I meant the 1*->2* guys and the extremely early 2->3* guys who don't go on the forums, which are the majority of the playerbase right now. For them, 1100 is much more attractive than 5k points. We forumites understand the true implications of such changes, but all Demiurge cares about is the illusion that points are more reasonable and that it's easier for people to get top scorers in PvP, which to the uneducated masses, is totally the case.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    zonatahunt wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?

    This...completely. As I said before, even with mainly a maxed 166 roster I could keep pace with the 4*s, but not anymore.

    I think it's normal that a 3* roster can't keep up with a 4* roster no? What would you say to a 2* guys who was upset that he hits the "166 wall" ?
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Wonko33 wrote:
    zonatahunt wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?

    This...completely. As I said before, even with mainly a maxed 166 roster I could keep pace with the 4*s, but not anymore.

    I think it's normal that a 3* roster can't keep up with a 4* roster no? What would you say to a 2* guys who was upset that he hits the "166 wall" ?

    I'd say that wall is never going away: try to skip 3* entirely, if you have 4* covers save HP (or buy HP, as may be the intention) and buy more, sink all your iso into the 4*'s and you can get further faster in PVP. I have never bought a 3* cover but last season I saved enough for a 4*, hoping to get there again and advance that roster. [Also making it easier: not buying any more roster slots at ridiculous prices, not having to shield multiple times.]
  • tanis3303
    tanis3303 Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
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    "&#91 wrote: »
    "]Great post. My experience is very similar to yours.

    I found this game while on downtime from my previous game. I couldn't play it so I was looking for something to fill the time gap. I now no longer play that game. I wonder if that scenario will repeat itself.

    I also wonder if developers even really read these posts. I'm guessing no because so many fellow forumites have made some great posts chronicling some of the game's flaws and possible fixes with no developer comment.

    Oh well, another day, another FtP game.

    ^This. 100% this. The more time I spend NOT playing this game, the more likely I am to continue to not play this game. PvE is a ridiculous struggle now due to the scaling increase, so I don't do much more there than play the essential battles and call it a day. Now once my initial push is over in PvP events, there is literally NOTHING to do for 3, 5 or 8 hours...and honestly, that rigid "play on our time not yours" time schedule is really annoying, so I see myself shielding for 8 hours and simply not playing for the entire 8 hours. How long do you think that will continue before I'm not even bothering to pick up the game at all?

    I've started playing Heroes of Dragon Age, and you know what? It's pretty fun! No roster slot prices (have as many heroes as you want, no cost involved!), no constant point loss in their PvP events (you fight other players teams, but if you get hit, it doesn't impact your score, just the overall tournament rankings) and drop rates from the tokens are much more reasonable (i got 2 teams worth of "Epic" heroes without spending a dime from buying packs with currency earned in-game). Could this be my replacement for MPQ? I don't know, maybe. But I wouldn't have had to look for a replacement if D3 hadn't told me, in no uncertain terms, "Don't play this game".
  • CaptainFreaky
    CaptainFreaky Posts: 451 Mover and Shaker
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    FYI - Data on who got to 1300 from recent Sticks and Stones (Cage) PVP are here:

    viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21966&sid=cfd051ee02eb33a7aabc8dcf074b025b#p278312

    I'd be really curious to get expanded data & insights from the Devs on what they saw and whether it's "working as intended" or not.
  • Wonko33 wrote:
    I think it's normal that a 3* roster can't keep up with a 4* roster no? What would you say to a 2* guys who was upset that he hits the "166 wall" ?

    I think this is going to make the 'wall' more defined as people float to their respective positions: how high you get without shields + a few hops. Before the change almost anyone could hop manyl times, making it so you could see even the occasional 2* at the 1100 level, as they shield bought their way to a 3* cover. Now, you're going to really hit that 166 or 270 wall, as people with the same roster strength won't be so dispersed.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
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    zonatahunt wrote:
    Just two weeks ago I spent the last three hours of a PvP playing leapfrog with an opponent from a great alliance. Our scores were only fifteen points apart for almost the entirety of those last three hours, and if it hadn't have been for a loss on their part (something I could see by watching the leaderboard every other minute to observe their behavior) I think I would have lost the event. However, I put in a final jump in the last minute and came out 15 points ahead with 1800+ points (I think). That match was epic in my mind. I could care less about how much HP I burnt (but I'm sure D3 loved it), and even though I like the blue 4hor cover I received as top prize, the competition was an instant classic! If the person I battled reads this I really want you to know that I had a blast. I know I won, but I would have been more than content if I had come in second because of how much enjoyment the competition was. All of the aforementioned joy I've been babbling about....absent entirely because of shield cool downs. That's a HUGE issue that the developers shouldn't overlook.

    3. Progression rewards are unattainable.

    Last season I tallied 16,000+ points. That was a great season; not as good as Season 8, but really good. I achieved that mark because the game was built to allow anyone with a halfway decent 3* roster to compete with the whales. As I stated in the previous section, my star team could jump fast and keep up with the best (well, not the 3000+ point whales). The only thing I needed was determination and HP to jump with. After the two tokens at 300 and 900 (ultimately always a Moonstone or Hawkeye), the only two progression rewards that I really looked forward to were the guaranteed cover at 1100 and the 4* at 1300. Those two rewards were instrumental in me getting my roster to where it is today. I only have my 4hor where she is today cover-wise because of those 1300 point rewards. And too many times after a new character is released I was always able to obtain another of their covers (one I always needed) in their first PvP at the 1100 point mark. So, todays PvP left me with 909 points. Nowhere near the 1100 mark I'll need to reach if I want Luke Cage's red cover in the now current PvP. Honestly, I don't know how I'll reach that mark. Do any of you?

    These 2 points which were fun for you are the reason D3 implemented the cool down in shields. When you scored 1800 points you spent a ton of HP and this became pay to win. The pay to win where you can do 4 to 5 shield hops in 2-3 hours has been part of the game but something they want to get rid of so players who are free to play have more of a chance to get higher placement. We are in phase one of the implementation and hopefully they will make adjustments like the 3hr shied will just have a 3 hr cool down, and possibly lower progression rewards.
    Part 2 becuase the P2W players score so high they also dominate the season. I have scored over 10k points each season and the highest I have placed has been top 100. When the top players are scoring 3 times the points as progression in the season D3 felt the game was too much pay to win and pay to progress. You said it yourself shields were originally put in place to protect scores and placement for 3,8, 24 hours so you did not have to play the last hour of PVP to place. We as players broke the system with shield hopping. The shield cool down has made the shields more like they were originally intended, but now D3 should watch and adjust where needed.
    3 things to adjust
    #1 3 Hr shield cool down should be 2 1/2 hours. 8 hr shield cool down should be 6 hrs, 24 hour shield can stay at 8 hours.
    #2 either lower progressions or adjust MMR so it is easier to find points above 800.
    #3 reduce the amount of points you can lose from a retaliation or any match. If players didn't lose massive points when unshielded they will be able to climb at high levels and still get placement.

    I have never been against shield hopping, and I have shield hopped in the past, I all ask is before you rant look at the game through the Dev's eyes. They make significant amounts of money on shield hoppers as they are the true whales of the game and they are saying, we love the money, but this is not healthy for the game. It is a really tough choice for a company to make that type of statement and implement those types of changes especially when it effects the money they make.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    wymtime wrote:
    I have never been against shield hopping, and I have shield hopped in the past, I all ask is before you rant look at the game through the Dev's eyes. They make significant amounts of money on shield hoppers as they are the true whales of the game and they are saying, we love the money, but this is not healthy for the game. It is a really tough choice for a company to make that type of statement and implement those types of changes especially when it effects the money they make.
    I'm not convinced at all this is going to make them less money. Instead of having 1% of the people spend 90% of the hp spent on shields, the illusion that higher ranks are attainable due to score compression might make way more people spend on 3/8/3 shields, or even more. I don't think the devs went into this with the idea it was going to hurt their bottom line; I think the goal was to spread the spending around so as not to be so dependent on the whales.
  • Zen808
    Zen808 Posts: 260
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    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP.

    And here I thought that it was that big ole wall of 166 come crashing down that was discouraging newbies from PVP.
  • Honu141
    Honu141 Posts: 84
    edited January 2015
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    wymtime wrote:
    They make significant amounts of money on shield hoppers as they are the true whales of the game and they are saying, we love the money, but this is not healthy for the game. It is a really tough choice for a company to make that type of statement and implement those types of changes especially when it effects the money they make.

    I agree with simonsez. Any for-profit company wouldn't make a change if they thought it would hurt their cashflow. Most shield hoppers, myself included, typically only use 3 hour shields. I have a fully stocked 3* roster and am in the 3-4* transition. For me, I would typically climb to 800 without shields, then shield hop to 1300 and beyond. At an average of 100 points per hop, that's about 5 shields per event for a sum cost of 375hp to win all the progression rewards plus a likely 4* cover. If I place in the top 5, I'm only out 275hp. That's a pretty good ROI if you ask me. I won't argue that they make money on shields (and health packs), but it's a stream. Shield cooldowns can turn that into a river.

    Let's look at the effects so far:

    1. From a shield hopping point of view, you must now incorporate 8 hour shields, and possibly 24 hour shields, if you want to hop in a relatively short period of time. So now your cost has grown to 525 just for 3 shields! I don't know if I'm willing to spend the extra cost to hop since they've effectively made the 1300 point progression out of reach for the majority of the player base. So what do you do?

    2. Since the 1300 progression is now further away, one must choose to either be tinykitty out of luck, buy cover packs, or flat-out buy the cover. I don't think they'll drop the progression rewards because then what's the point of making it harder to attain them to begin with? So if you want to buy them, a 4* cover will run you 2500hp. For that matter, you may also need to buy a 3* cover for 1250hp since the 1100 progression seems to also be out of reach. But just having the covers is not enough, because...

    3. The 166 and 270 walls are now the new shields. Just having a fully-covered 3* or 4* character does you no good if they're not also fully-leveled. Just not scary enough. With the dearth of ISO, you may also need to buy those too.

    So I don't think it was a tough choice for the devs to institute the shield nerf because I don't believe it affects their bottom line. On the contrary, I believe it will improve it in the long run. The top guys and alliances will likely remain at the top. They already have their 4* wall. The rest of us will need to choose whether it's worth spending (or spending more) money to compete. IMO, there will be more people answering yes, than no.
  • Professa D
    Options
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I feel like the main reason that the devs changed shields was to prevent newbies from being discouraged when they see someone get 5k points in a PvP. Yeah, the people who spend HP end up winning in the end for either case, but for some, relatively not savvy newbie, 1200 points (which is what sham and the leaders are currently at I believe) has the illusion of at least being obtainable eventually, compared to the cheaty score of 5k. I explained earlier that none of their reasons for the shield change would work out in practice (makes it fairer and less p2w? yeah right), so I expect that this was the sole reason for the change, and to their credit, it did work out. This shield change doesn't affect my playstyle at all, so I am unaffected, but at least their actual main reason for the change ended up coming true.

    I'm a transitioner and discouraged that the only way to win now seems to be have a heavy 4* roster. I would think this would discourage newbies more than the points?

    Wait, you mean there's actually incentive to level up characters now? icon_e_surprised.gif
  • FaustianDeal
    FaustianDeal Posts: 760 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Honu141 wrote:
    [...]
    I won't argue that they make money on shields (and health packs), but it's a stream. Shield cooldowns can turn that into a river.
    [...]
    Since the 1300 progression is now further away, one must choose to either be tinykitty out of luck, buy cover packs, or flat-out buy the cover. I don't think they'll drop the progression rewards because then what's the point of making it harder to attain them to begin with? So if you want to buy them, a 4* cover will run you 2500hp. For that matter, you may also need to buy a 3* cover for 1250hp since the 1100 progression seems to also be out of reach. But just having the covers is not enough, because...
    [...]

    I agree with this analysis. My strategy for getting 3 Fury and 2 XForce covers was to wait for the cover I needed to appear in the 1300 progression slot and go for it. In a few of those I probably shielded more than Honu, mostly because I was having a tougher time making 100/ladder. I can't say for certain what my worst number of consumed shields was, but let's say "8" because the math is convenient. 8x 3-hour shields would have cost me 600HP. (Given the current cool down timer I don't believe it is even possible to buy 8x 3-hour shields in an event.)

    In this model, Honu or I were able to get a 2,500HP cover for the tremendous discount of 75-90% off the cover price.

    In the new world I can see a couple of things happening:
    1 - either people keep buying 3+ shields/event and the amount of revenue shields goes up. I don't see this as viable though, because overall scoring needs to move up before the broader community has a reasonable shot at that prize
    2 - people start buying covers outright. If people today are getting covers at as much as a 90% discount then they only need 1/10 of the players who used to shield up to 1300 to buy a cover outright and they break even. If the rate goes up to 1/8 then they increased revenue instead.

    I also agree with the sentiment that a 4* roster just became a very effective "free" shield though... the risk/reward of fighting up against a 4* roster has mostly vanished. In the old world I could get 50 points from the fight and, if I lost, I would have health packs in < 2 hours and I could try again. Now I might only be getting 30-35 points for that fight, and if it breaks bad I could lose 5 hours waiting for one of my cooldowns to expire. That's not a good tradeoff.
  • RWTDBurn
    RWTDBurn Posts: 291
    Options
    Honu141 wrote:
    [...]
    I won't argue that they make money on shields (and health packs), but it's a stream. Shield cooldowns can turn that into a river.
    [...]
    Since the 1300 progression is now further away, one must choose to either be tinykitty out of luck, buy cover packs, or flat-out buy the cover. I don't think they'll drop the progression rewards because then what's the point of making it harder to attain them to begin with? So if you want to buy them, a 4* cover will run you 2500hp. For that matter, you may also need to buy a 3* cover for 1250hp since the 1100 progression seems to also be out of reach. But just having the covers is not enough, because...
    [...]

    I agree with this analysis. My strategy for getting 3 Fury and 2 XForce covers was to wait for the cover I needed to appear in the 1300 progression slot and go for it. In a few of those I probably shielded more than Honu, mostly because I was having a tougher time making 100/ladder. I can't say for certain what my worst number of consumed shields was, but let's say "8" because the math is convenient. 8x 3-hour shields would have cost me 600HP. (Given the current cool down timer I don't believe it is even possible to buy 8x 3-hour shields in an event.)

    In this model, Honu or I were able to get a 2,500HP cover for the tremendous discount of 75-90% off the cover price.

    In the new world I can see a couple of things happening:
    1 - either people keep buying 3+ shields/event and the amount of revenue shields goes up. I don't see this as viable though, because overall scoring needs to move up before the broader community has a reasonable shot at that prize
    2 - people start buying covers outright. If people today are getting covers at as much as a 90% discount then they only need 1/10 of the players who used to shield up to 1300 to buy a cover outright and they break even. If the rate goes up to 1/8 then they increased revenue instead.

    I also agree with the sentiment that a 4* roster just became a very effective "free" shield though... the risk/reward of fighting up against a 4* roster has mostly vanished. In the old world I could get 50 points from the fight and, if I lost, I would have health packs in < 2 hours and I could try again. Now I might only be getting 30-35 points for that fight, and if it breaks bad I could lose 5 hours waiting for one of my cooldowns to expire. That's not a good tradeoff.


    I have to admit, after playing a few PvP events and reviewing how they played out I decided to spend most of the HP I've been hording for 10+ months on a few Goddess covers. If the shield cool down remains as it is, I view this as an investment that will save me HP down the road. With a maxed Xforce and a soon to be maxed Goddess, I won't need to shield nearly as much as I know there are going to be more attractive targets out there. I should be spending about 75HP - 150HP less per PvP event (compared to what I was spending prior to the cool down) now so I'll make up the difference quickly.

    If the goal was to even the playing field a bit more between the whales, the 4*, the 4* transition players, and the 3*, then I think this is going to fail. I think there are going to be more defined groups in the top 50. Anyone below a 4* roster will have a hard time placing in the top 5 consistently. There is no longer room for error as you really only have 3 chances with a 3/8/3 shielding strategy. If you lose, you either consume/buy more health packs and risk being exposed to attacks while trying to fight to regain the points you lost or you take it on the chin, throw up your shield, and accept the fact that you're likely no longer in contention for top 5. Non 4* rosters are going to take less risk and start skipping those 4* teams more and more which will lead to more and more people skipping the 3*s and investing everything into 4* so they can keep up with the arms race. It's only a matter of time before xforce/goddess become more common than Sentry/Hood of old.
  • Honestly, I am OK with the new changes, but there are a few caveats to that.

    1. Progression rewards, as it stood it was hard enough without burning HP and ISO to get 1100, let alone 1300. Now? Like the third poster I got first place with around 950, second place in my bracket was about 850 and third place didn't crack 800.

    2. The 'wall' needs serious adjusting. Since better teams are having lower scores, it makes the wall hit harder and lower. They need to find some way to adjust this.

    3. Early risers. When I got First place, I was in first pretty much the entire event. What I saw irritated me. Skipping galore I was matched up against maxed 3* teams and some 4* teams and only able to get UP to '6' points for fighting them. If we can't shield quickly, let us shield longer and make it worth more.
    - Unreall