Character rankings 12/14 edition: the results!
Comments
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NorthernPolarity wrote:Phantron wrote:Sentry plays a lot like Thor (4*) where he is most effective if you're playing to lose, which is always true on defense as well. Like Power Surge, Supernova tends to be an equalizer move that tilts the state of the game toward neutral, which is great when you're losing but not very good when you're winning. In the absence of boosts it is quite likely a transition player is playing quite a number of games from a losing position, but it is also quite awkward when you've successfully knocked out 2 guys and have 11 red AP and realize using a Supernova is only going to set you back a lot, but you don't have anything else available and you're not sure if something else can go wrong by the time you got something else ready.
If you're playing Sentry / Daken / Loaner, what else are you going to use to knock out the two other guys? If you're playing a somewhat standard PvP 500ish point 3* wall of 6800 HP characters, world rupture / sacrifice / chemical reaction isn't going to be enough to down the enemy team by the time you get supernova out. I would imagine that with that team comp, you 2* your way up to 400, and then supernova the enemy team down as your main strategy.
Well, if you setup your team it is pretty much Supernova or bust so that does get around the usual problem of having Supernova available at an awkward time because the rest of your team managed to do something useful.0 -
Nope, I'm starting to have a feeling that new Sentry is awful for transitioners as well. Most of them can't afford to splurge on shielding or HP boosts, and without that, using Sentry as a core character is VERY problematic. I know I try not to use any of his skills in his LRs if I bother playing those at all. oBW and A.Wolverine were very helpful for my transition, perhaps because oBW could heal then and Wolvie had great passive healing. For punching above their weight, cStorm/MMN suffice well enough not to mention how reliable they are compared to Sentry.
Did I say that I failed to beat a non-deadly PvE node with Sentry/Falcon/3* Daken? Because I did. Got World Rupture and Sacrifice out alright, 2 Sacs even, but then it all fell apart before WR had a chance to tick down to 2 turns at least.0 -
Phantron wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Phantron wrote:Sentry plays a lot like Thor (4*) where he is most effective if you're playing to lose, which is always true on defense as well. Like Power Surge, Supernova tends to be an equalizer move that tilts the state of the game toward neutral, which is great when you're losing but not very good when you're winning. In the absence of boosts it is quite likely a transition player is playing quite a number of games from a losing position, but it is also quite awkward when you've successfully knocked out 2 guys and have 11 red AP and realize using a Supernova is only going to set you back a lot, but you don't have anything else available and you're not sure if something else can go wrong by the time you got something else ready.
If you're playing Sentry / Daken / Loaner, what else are you going to use to knock out the two other guys? If you're playing a somewhat standard PvP 500ish point 3* wall of 6800 HP characters, world rupture / sacrifice / chemical reaction isn't going to be enough to down the enemy team by the time you get supernova out. I would imagine that with that team comp, you 2* your way up to 400, and then supernova the enemy team down as your main strategy.
Well, if you setup your team it is pretty much Supernova or bust so that does get around the usual problem of having Supernova available at an awkward time because the rest of your team managed to do something useful.
Yeah. Again, just for 100% clarity, I'm talking specifically if Sentry is your only real 3* option on your team, and the rest of your team is 2*s. If we had a hypothetical PvP tournament of "2 on 2, 1 3* and 2*", then a Sentry / Daken team should perform far better than most other team compositions out there. This scenario must exist for at least some players who have a ton of Sentry covers for whatever reason (prodigal sun might help out there) as this hypothetical tournament is basically every tournament for transitioners who don't have enough 3* covers.
In any other case where either the featured character is respectable or they can actually field 2, useful 3* characters then yeah, supernova plays exactly as you says it does.0 -
locked wrote:Nope, I'm starting to have a feeling that new Sentry is awful for transitioners as well. Most of them can't afford to splurge on shielding or HP boosts, and without that, using Sentry as a core character is VERY problematic. I know I try not to use any of his skills in his LRs if I bother playing those at all. oBW and A.Wolverine were very helpful for my transition, perhaps because oBW could heal then and Wolvie had great passive healing. For punching above their weight, cStorm/MMN suffice well enough not to mention how reliable they are compared to Sentry.
Did I say that I failed to beat a non-deadly PvE node with Sentry/Falcon/3* Daken? Because I did. Got World Rupture and Sacrifice out alright, 2 Sacs even, but then it all fell apart before WR had a chance to tick down to 2 turns at least.
Well the main advantage that Sentry has over MNM / C. Storm is that people will hesitate significantly more before retaliating against a Sentry based composition. I mean, this should be seen somewhat easily by comparing Sentry to BP.
Supernova is a RotP that deals 1k to your own team.
Sacrifice is a battleplan that deals 1.7k to Sentry.
Yeah, These two skills are obviously worse than BP's counterparts, but the fact that BP is a top tier character for transitioners and Sentry's abilities are almost carbon copies of BP's in terms of power level means that he can't be completely awful for a transitioner. The main thing here is that you don't need sustainability if you use a 2* team up to 400, and then use your Sentry team to push higher at the end. The self damage is worth it if you can get say 6-8 good matches up to 750 or 800, which should easily be doable on 5 health packs in the sentry / daken / loaner comp where you're only health packing sentry.0 -
Supernova is very good on defense since your defense team has infinite health packs. I had my team blown up a few times in Starfall by even level 3 Supernovas, and sure he was boosted but that move really packs a punch, and defense doesn't have to worry about healing people up after the battle is over. It's even very good for offense but it is just very awkward when you've to use a Supernova to finish a guy off with 3K HP.0
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For me, Sentry has been relegated to an option when I need to beat down a PvE or Gauntlet node. I do use him in the villain Lightning Rounds as a scarecrow/meat shield when he's buffed, but then have to bring along someone whose green and/or red abilities I actually want to use. I'd say his overall ranking maybe just a little high but not way off. He's definitely not as useful as Human Torch, but probably a little better than GSBW (mostly because of his high health and her low health).0
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Yey its back! I made a topic b/c I didn't know when yours was coming: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20408&p=266071#p266071
rocket and groot, loki wayyy too low0 -
The only people who hesitate to retaliate Sentry are the ones going through PTSD from when he was good.NorthernPolarity wrote:locked wrote:Nope, I'm starting to have a feeling that new Sentry is awful for transitioners as well. Most of them can't afford to splurge on shielding or HP boosts, and without that, using Sentry as a core character is VERY problematic. I know I try not to use any of his skills in his LRs if I bother playing those at all. oBW and A.Wolverine were very helpful for my transition, perhaps because oBW could heal then and Wolvie had great passive healing. For punching above their weight, cStorm/MMN suffice well enough not to mention how reliable they are compared to Sentry.
Did I say that I failed to beat a non-deadly PvE node with Sentry/Falcon/3* Daken? Because I did. Got World Rupture and Sacrifice out alright, 2 Sacs even, but then it all fell apart before WR had a chance to tick down to 2 turns at least.
Well the main advantage that Sentry has over MNM / C. Storm is that people will hesitate significantly more before retaliating against a Sentry based composition. I mean, this should be seen somewhat easily by comparing Sentry to BP.
Supernova is a RotP that deals 1k to your own team.
Sacrifice is a battleplan that deals 1.7k to Sentry.
Yeah, These two skills are obviously worse than BP's counterparts, but the fact that BP is a top tier character for transitioners and Sentry's abilities are almost carbon copies of BP's in terms of power level means that he can't be completely awful for a transitioner. The main thing here is that you don't need sustainability if you use a 2* team up to 400, and then use your Sentry team to push higher at the end. The self damage is worth it if you can get say 6-8 good matches up to 750 or 800, which should easily be doable on 5 health packs in the sentry / daken / loaner comp where you're only health packing sentry.
He's just a big, fluffy hp wall. He kills himself more often than not.0 -
onimus wrote:
The only people who hesitate to retaliate Sentry are the ones going through PTSD from when he was good.NorthernPolarity wrote:locked wrote:Nope, I'm starting to have a feeling that new Sentry is awful for transitioners as well. Most of them can't afford to splurge on shielding or HP boosts, and without that, using Sentry as a core character is VERY problematic. I know I try not to use any of his skills in his LRs if I bother playing those at all. oBW and A.Wolverine were very helpful for my transition, perhaps because oBW could heal then and Wolvie had great passive healing. For punching above their weight, cStorm/MMN suffice well enough not to mention how reliable they are compared to Sentry.
Did I say that I failed to beat a non-deadly PvE node with Sentry/Falcon/3* Daken? Because I did. Got World Rupture and Sacrifice out alright, 2 Sacs even, but then it all fell apart before WR had a chance to tick down to 2 turns at least.
Well the main advantage that Sentry has over MNM / C. Storm is that people will hesitate significantly more before retaliating against a Sentry based composition. I mean, this should be seen somewhat easily by comparing Sentry to BP.
Supernova is a RotP that deals 1k to your own team.
Sacrifice is a battleplan that deals 1.7k to Sentry.
Yeah, These two skills are obviously worse than BP's counterparts, but the fact that BP is a top tier character for transitioners and Sentry's abilities are almost carbon copies of BP's in terms of power level means that he can't be completely awful for a transitioner. The main thing here is that you don't need sustainability if you use a 2* team up to 400, and then use your Sentry team to push higher at the end. The self damage is worth it if you can get say 6-8 good matches up to 750 or 800, which should easily be doable on 5 health packs in the sentry / daken / loaner comp where you're only health packing sentry.
He's just a big, fluffy hp wall. He kills himself more often than not.
Sacrifice and supernova have always been scary on defense, and they still are. I'm guessing that this is your X-Force privilege talking, since every character in the game except ladythor and dino is a big, fluffy HP wall against the force hammer.
If a Sentry + 2* Daken teams attacks your 166 Punisher / Cap team, you're probably going to hesitate more on retaliating if they're worth 25 points as opposed to a mnm / cstorm team. Sentry is still among the upper end of defensive scarecrows comparatively speaking, not sure how that is really arguable.0 -
Sentry is now just too slow, does too much self damage, and too many combinations can now take him out. Most players who had him maxed out also have many more efficient options. Why build up for WR or super nova when you can go with thunder strike to call of the storm for a 3* option. I personally would now rather run Patch with Dare Devil than Sentry. I have X-Force and use him a lot in PVPS, but on the 3* level there are a lot better options.
On a side not I am still surprised Fury is considered a top 4 character. I have not gotten enough covers of him, but when I have gone against him he just seems too expensive. He has huge nukes, but they cost a lot. I still have Hood, Daken and Patch higher than him. The true healers are just too imperative for long play and Hood is the best support character in the game, and now has a solid nuke to go along with it that can really help in high level PVE0 -
It's very different to attack with Sentry and defend with Sentry. The defender starts with max health every fight and never has to worry about whether a Supernova will leave the team crippled while the offense does. Thor's stats are probably too good for a 3* but Thunder Strike is not used very effectively by the AI on defense as it is possible the AI just hands a bunch of green to the other side, which is an interesting parallel to how both Supernova/Sacrifice is very hard to use effectively by a human because we have to worry about limited health but the AI can use them well due to starting every fight with max health. Supernova maxes out at about 4000 team damage. Only Black Panther can compete for that and that's another character I'm not sure what the devs were thinking when they made him, and this damage even beats Call the Storm which is usually a 4 match + 2-3 match move (12y, 6-9 green and Call the Storm supplies the rest). Of course Supernova does a ton of damage to your own team, but that's generally irrelevent for defense and even on offense if it's enough to win it should still be taken. This range of damage can pretty much kill any support character.0
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Sentry's still useful, it's just that it's a niche use against hard PVE nodes, rather than in PVP. He can also scarecrow in certain situations in PVP, though there are better people for that.0
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It seems to me that sentry's primary value now is as a defensive scarecrow. As many people pointed out, the major drawback to all his powers is the self-damage (or team damage). This drawback is significantly mitigated on defense where an AI team always starts with full health. When skipping through opponents, I consider sentry to be about as intimidating as BP. I know that when I fight Sentry I have some time before his powers go off, but that if they do, it will hurt a lot (specifically, supernova is the main the concern; WR takes much longer now, and the AI was never good about pairing it with strike tiles). He's not as good a scarecrow as X-force, or TGT, but he's a little scarier than hulk and loads better than someone like lCap. That's nothing like what he used to be, but it's decent value.0
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I guess you could call it Xforce privilege.NorthernPolarity wrote:onimus wrote:
The only people who hesitate to retaliate Sentry are the ones going through PTSD from when he was good.NorthernPolarity wrote:locked wrote:Nope, I'm starting to have a feeling that new Sentry is awful for transitioners as well. Most of them can't afford to splurge on shielding or HP boosts, and without that, using Sentry as a core character is VERY problematic. I know I try not to use any of his skills in his LRs if I bother playing those at all. oBW and A.Wolverine were very helpful for my transition, perhaps because oBW could heal then and Wolvie had great passive healing. For punching above their weight, cStorm/MMN suffice well enough not to mention how reliable they are compared to Sentry.
Did I say that I failed to beat a non-deadly PvE node with Sentry/Falcon/3* Daken? Because I did. Got World Rupture and Sacrifice out alright, 2 Sacs even, but then it all fell apart before WR had a chance to tick down to 2 turns at least.
Well the main advantage that Sentry has over MNM / C. Storm is that people will hesitate significantly more before retaliating against a Sentry based composition. I mean, this should be seen somewhat easily by comparing Sentry to BP.
Supernova is a RotP that deals 1k to your own team.
Sacrifice is a battleplan that deals 1.7k to Sentry.
Yeah, These two skills are obviously worse than BP's counterparts, but the fact that BP is a top tier character for transitioners and Sentry's abilities are almost carbon copies of BP's in terms of power level means that he can't be completely awful for a transitioner. The main thing here is that you don't need sustainability if you use a 2* team up to 400, and then use your Sentry team to push higher at the end. The self damage is worth it if you can get say 6-8 good matches up to 750 or 800, which should easily be doable on 5 health packs in the sentry / daken / loaner comp where you're only health packing sentry.
He's just a big, fluffy hp wall. He kills himself more often than not.
Sacrifice and supernova have always been scary on defense, and they still are. I'm guessing that this is your X-Force privilege talking, since every character in the game except ladythor and dino is a big, fluffy HP wall against the force hammer.
If a Sentry + 2* Daken teams attacks your 166 Punisher / Cap team, you're probably going to hesitate more on retaliating if they're worth 25 points as opposed to a mnm / cstorm team. Sentry is still among the upper end of defensive scarecrows comparatively speaking, not sure how that is really arguable.
But if Sentry is only useful pre-xforce, then he doesn't belong anywhere near the top 20 anyway.
Pre-xforce nowadays is around 500.0 -
Why would being inferior to X Force put you at top 20? In terms of pure damage potential, the #2 character the game is still 'pre X Force'.0
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To use the M:tG terminology, Sentry is designed for Timmys -- not sustainable at all and not fast, but look at that damage! I think he's fine as a secondary character that you can use a few times a day.0
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A character can still be useful without being Xforce.Phantron wrote:Why would being inferior to X Force put you at top 20? In terms of pure damage potential, the #2 character the game is still 'pre X Force'.
Pairing with Xforce, for example, sky rockets you up the list.
Magneto, Deadpool, 4hor, Hood, 3 star Thor, Fury, Daken. Even Captain Marvel.
There is also Patch, whose sustain makes him good from 0 to 700 for almost no health packs, especially when paired with Daken.
Hulk is strong because of his combo with Patch to create what Sentry used to be. Strong, reliable, quick AoE damage at the expense of health packs.
Then there are characters like Captain America who has use in both PVE and PVP, so he's versatile. Or Falcon or Grey Suit who are fringe top 20 for being super strong in PVE.
Sentry does not go well with Xforce because you don't want Xforce eating unnecessary damage from Sentry's abilities. He's not good for climbing. He isn't very strong in PVE. And he isn't reliable either.
There are multiple ways to be top 20 without being as good as Xforce.
Sentry has none of those qualities.
Sentry's only real use is to hope people still fear what he used to be. And to damage your team for mediocre to decent-ish turn ending damage.
I imagine it is beginning to look like I'm stuck on Sentry. I just don't see how he could be anything above 22 or maybe 23.0 -
onimus wrote:
A character can still be useful without being Xforce.Phantron wrote:Why would being inferior to X Force put you at top 20? In terms of pure damage potential, the #2 character the game is still 'pre X Force'.
Pairing with Xforce, for example, sky rockets you up the list.
Magneto, Deadpool, 4hor, Hood, 3 star Thor, Fury, Daken. Even Captain Marvel.
There is also Patch, whose sustain makes him good from 0 to 700 for almost no health packs, especially when paired with Daken.
Hulk is strong because of his combo with Patch to create what Sentry used to be. Strong, reliable, quick AoE damage at the expense of health packs.
Then there are characters like Captain America who has use in both PVE and PVP, so he's versatile. Or Falcon or Grey Suit who are fringe top 20 for being super strong in PVE.
Sentry does not go well with Xforce because you don't want Xforce eating unnecessary damage from Sentry's abilities. He's not good for climbing. He isn't very strong in PVE. And he isn't reliable either.
There are multiple ways to be top 20 without being as good as Xforce.
Sentry has none of those qualities.
Sentry's only real use is to hope people still fear what he used to be. And to damage your team for mediocre to decent-ish turn ending damage.
I imagine it is beginning to look like I'm stuck on Sentry. I just don't see how he could be anything above 22 or maybe 23.
Okay, something definitely got lost between what I originally wrote and what everyone thought I wrote. This is what I originally wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:I brainstormed a lot about Sentry, and I think that he can be an excellent transition character in a similar vein to Gamora if he's literally your only useable character for a while. The thing about Sentry is that Supernova is still a great ability: 3-4k potential team damage for 12 AP is amazing, and is miles better than most transition characters / teams you can come up with. The drawback of course is that you kill your own team, but if you run Sentry / Loaner / 2* Daken, then only Sentry is going to require health packs. I could see this team composition easily punching above its weight class and earning a lot more covers than most other 3* / Loaner / 2* team composition. Of course, Sentry becomes pretty useless once you actually make the transition and is a terrible long-term investment, but until then, he's probably pretty great.
And this is what I think everyone thought I wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Sentry is still a top tier character. He has the same amount of HP as X-Force, destroys everyone on defense, and deserves to be top 10 in the rankings. He is totally useful in a full, fleshed out roster, and deserves all the playtime in the world because he's super underrated and still super awesome.
I'm not arguing that Sentry is pretty weak for someone with a full roster nowadays: there are many better options and I never use him anymore because of that. All I'm saying is that for a transitioning guy with not many other 3*s but for whatever reason has a 5 red Sentry, running Sentry / 2* Daken / Loaner will be significantly better than running another, average mixed 3* composition. Just think about it: your PvP team consists of a 3* character, a 2* character, and a loaner (which is basically every PvP tournament for a transitioner). What 3* character do you pick? I would definitely pick BP / Patch / LazyThor / Punisher / Thor / Gamora over Sentry, and then Sentry is probably equal to or better than every single other 3* in this format.
The ONLY point I'm trying to make is that if you're a guy with a Sentry and not many 3*'s, then pumping iso into him could pay off and let you punch above your weight class. This case seems to have gotten lost amidst everyone saying "oh, Sentry is the worst character ever now, why would you ever use him" sentiment that all of us privileged X-Force people are spouting. Yes, he is a bad long-term investment and a bad character once you have a full roster. But does that mean that he is utterly worthless for every single player 100% of the time? No, because he's actually pretty good in that one specific scenario.0
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