Enemy of the State - Dec 23 - 29

Unknown

Focus wolverine first.

raisinbman wrote:

I'm not seeing the big deal about Gorgon. I still need clarification if its the Hell's Kitchen nodes that people are having trouble with or some future node other time slices are dealing with.

I think a lot of the frustration people have is from the red AP feeding goon. You are on a very short clock before wolverine one shots somebody. Denying isn't an option and a bad board means a quick wipe because things get out of hand quickly with Gorgon's Red/Black.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Second refresh, final node vs Gorgon Hell's Kitchen final node:

I got adamantium slashed, Hawkeye died. Nothing special. Board didn't give me purple so wasn't as smooth as it could have been, but 2 Wind Storms = dead Gorgon = dead enemy

I'm not seeing the big deal about Gorgon. I still need clarification if its the Hell's Kitchen nodes that people are having trouble with or some future node other time slices are dealing with.

Gorgon is level 180 on the non essential and has 11K HP. If you do Wind Storm on him, he'll just sort of shrug it off. Wolverine has 7390 HP, so that's safely outside of Wind Storm range so they'll still be able to move the board after 4 turns, and you got a Konran who can put out a pretty nasty special tile too. Is he level 80 or something so that you can actually do meaningful damage to him with Wind Storm?

Yes, My Storm puts out Wind Storms that can do (at least) 1/4 the enemy's health.

My Gorgon is 119(and the node is still 'Normal') because I've kept my characters softcapped until I can push the most important, properly specced ones to 166.

Maybe its the people who has 166+ rosters who're having trouble with Gorgon? I know not having X-Force is probably hurting a number of people.

Even then, I've been told Storm/Mag beats even 385+ enemies so I dunno.

squirrel1120

I thought the hell's kitchen nodes were harder than the current hand fortress ones. I didn't think they were hard at all until I had a few boards go bad and soon found out how quickly matches against him can go bad. Roster scaling is only going to emphasize that for folks who's magnestorm is on the lower end of their roster.

Even with several characters 153, they were still the most effective team to beat them... couple bad boards tho, and suddenly you are trying other combos just to get it done... and failing and running out of characters. Out of 7 clears I only had one run like that, thankfully.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Second refresh, final node vs Gorgon Hell's Kitchen final node:

I got adamantium slashed, Hawkeye died. Nothing special. Board didn't give me purple so wasn't as smooth as it could have been, but 2 Wind Storms = dead Gorgon = dead enemy

I'm not seeing the big deal about Gorgon. I still need clarification if its the Hell's Kitchen nodes that people are having trouble with or some future node other time slices are dealing with.

Gorgon is level 180 on the non essential and has 11K HP. If you do Wind Storm on him, he'll just sort of shrug it off. Wolverine has 7390 HP, so that's safely outside of Wind Storm range so they'll still be able to move the board after 4 turns, and you got a Konran who can put out a pretty nasty special tile too. Is he level 80 or something so that you can actually do meaningful damage to him with Wind Storm?

Yes, My Storm puts out Wind Storms that can do (at least) 1/4 the enemy's health.

My Gorgon is 119(and the node is still 'Normal') because I've kept my characters softcapped until I can push the most important, properly specced ones to 166.

Maybe its the people who has 166+ rosters who're having trouble with Gorgon? I know not having X-Force is probably hurting a number of people.

Even then, I've been told Storm/Mag beats even 385+ enemies so I dunno.

No it doesn't work like that. Usually those are said by the guys who beat something on level 150 or 250 and figures it must be exactly the same fight at level 395. Sure you're fighting level 150 goons and say 'I can do this forever' but if it becomes level 395 you find out you step on a Caltrops and Falcon died so it turned out it's not nearly as forever as you thought. At level 190, Adamantium Slash does 6286 damage, almost certainly killing whoever it hits since they also do very significant match damage + random damage from other CDs that are hard to stop, but the difference is that when you do your 2 Wind Storms back, Wolverine still has 3K HP left and Gorgon still has 7K HP left, so they'll almost certainly survive the next 4 turns and you'd take another Adamantium Slash/Debiliating Slash and that'd be game. Having X Force would make things easier but it's not like you're guaranteed to outrace the AI even with X Force around given their AP pumps.

The scaling for this event seems to be exceptionally low to account for the fact that Gorgon and The Hand ninjas are extremely strong, and lower scaling factor tends to favor the weaker rosters as this puts the enemy on a low enough of HP range for stuff like Wind Storm to work. Suppose you've the Prodigal Sun scaling where they're 395 for me and 220 for you. Well, that's probably even because all those nodes will be borderline impossible at that level, so it's better for the weak roster since anything that is within Wind Storm's range is just not very hard, while the 3*'s enemies are definitely outside of what Wind Storm can possibly handle.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Second refresh, final node vs Gorgon Hell's Kitchen final node:

I got adamantium slashed, Hawkeye died. Nothing special. Board didn't give me purple so wasn't as smooth as it could have been, but 2 Wind Storms = dead Gorgon = dead enemy

I'm not seeing the big deal about Gorgon. I still need clarification if its the Hell's Kitchen nodes that people are having trouble with or some future node other time slices are dealing with.

Gorgon is level 180 on the non essential and has 11K HP. If you do Wind Storm on him, he'll just sort of shrug it off. Wolverine has 7390 HP, so that's safely outside of Wind Storm range so they'll still be able to move the board after 4 turns, and you got a Konran who can put out a pretty nasty special tile too. Is he level 80 or something so that you can actually do meaningful damage to him with Wind Storm?

Yes, My Storm puts out Wind Storms that can do (at least) 1/4 the enemy's health.

My Gorgon is 119(and the node is still 'Normal') because I've kept my characters softcapped until I can push the most important, properly specced ones to 166.

Maybe its the people who has 166+ rosters who're having trouble with Gorgon? I know not having X-Force is probably hurting a number of people.

Even then, I've been told Storm/Mag beats even 385+ enemies so I dunno.

No it doesn't work like that. Usually those are said by the guys who beat something on level 150 or 250 and figures it must be exactly the same fight at level 395. Sure you're fighting level 150 goons and say 'I can do this forever' but if it becomes level 395 you find out you step on a Caltrops and Falcon died so it turned out it's not nearly as forever as you thought. At level 190, Adamantium Slash does 6286 damage, almost certainly killing whoever it hits since they also do very significant match damage + random damage from other CDs that are hard to stop, but the difference is that when you do your 2 Wind Storms back, Wolverine still has 3K HP left and Gorgon still has 7K HP left, so they'll almost certainly survive the next 4 turns and you'd take another Adamantium Slash/Debiliating Slash and that'd be game. Having X Force would make things easier but it's not like you're guaranteed to outrace the AI even with X Force around given their AP pumps.

The scaling for this event seems to be exceptionally low to account for the fact that Gorgon and The Hand ninjas are extremely strong, and lower scaling factor tends to favor the weaker rosters as this puts the enemy on a low enough of HP range for stuff like Wind Storm to work. Suppose you've the Prodigal Sun scaling where they're 395 for me and 220 for you. Well, that's probably even because all those nodes will be borderline impossible at that level, so it's better for the weak roster since anything that is within Wind Storm's range is just not very hard, while the 3*'s enemies are definitely outside of what Wind Storm can possibly handle.

So what I'm getting from this is there's no real 3*-4* equivalent to StormNeto. Interesting.

dkffiv

Elektra is worthless without covers so on the essential vs. a 138 gorgon with 2 red feeders its a tight fight even with a full 166/270 roster. You can't bring AP deniers because if you do you have no dps. Same thing on the 171 wolverine with 2 feeder regular nodes. Hood can't steal red fast enough and if wolverine makes a single red or 4 match he tends to get enough AP to ada slash you next turn.

I've nearly wiped on the 1 character + 2 goons or full goon nodes due to unavoidable damage. I've been forced to bring either cmag or falcon and rush for their defense tiles asap to avoid getting wiped out by caltrops or turn to smoke. The other problem with the survival nodes is that Wolverine or Gorgon will show up with a full red bar and 1 shot someone as soon as he jumps in. There needs to be an enemy AP clear between waves.

Overall it feels really poorly designed. Facing these new goons feels way worse than when a muscle gets a threaten off and things get out of control. Shuriken is a hell of a lot worse than Thug's pistol and I consider that ability cheap.

dkffiv

raisinbman wrote:

So what I'm getting from this is there's no real 3*-4* equivalent to StormNeto. Interesting.

HP scales much harder than match/ability damage. Besides Xforce or the old sentry bombing its very hard to win fast. Nick Fury is the closest you'll get to a 3*+ Windstorm but it takes a lot more AP to pull it off.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

So what I'm getting from this is there's no real 3*-4* equivalent to StormNeto. Interesting.

It's not that there aren't cheap strategies, it's that if the enemy has enough HPs they can reduce the effectiveness of almost any strategy. Let's say you got a 2 villian + 1 goon combo so you got 15 blue AP and 20 red AP with Captain America. So what you usually end up doing would be Star Spangled the guy with the lower HP, match red (or wait until red recycles), Star Spangled again to kill, then Peacemaker the other guy and that'd be a very strong lockdown. Problem is, if the guy with less HP has more than 10K HP then this won't work because Star Spangled Avenger does 4000 damage and you're probably not getting an extra 2000 damage from match damage. So anything above 10K is going to take one more recycle of Captain's red (3 turns), and a lot can go wrong in 3 turns when fighting nasty combination of enemies and pretty much anyone at level 395 has more than 10K HP (and quite a few has more than that at just level 200). So while Captain America is probably just as cheap as StormNeto, his enemies have way more HP so that even with the same kind of cheese, you can't reliably win because your enemies can tough it out.

Unknown

HP scales much harder than match/ability damage. Besides Xforce or the old sentry bombing its very hard to win fast. Nick Fury is the closest you'll get to a 3*+ Windstorm but it takes a lot more AP to pull it off.

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

So what I'm getting from this is there's no real 3*-4* equivalent to StormNeto. Interesting.

It's not that there aren't cheap strategies, it's that if the enemy has enough HPs they can reduce the effectiveness of almost any strategy. Let's say you got a 2 villian + 1 goon combo so you got 15 blue AP and 20 red AP with Captain America. So what you usually end up doing would be Star Spangled the guy with the lower HP, match red (or wait until red recycles), Star Spangled again to kill, then Peacemaker the other guy and that'd be a very strong lockdown. Problem is, if the guy with less HP has more than 10K HP then this won't work because Star Spangled Avenger does 4000 damage and you're probably not getting an extra 2000 damage from match damage. So anything above 10K is going to take one more recycle of Captain's red (3 turns), and a lot can go wrong in 3 turns when fighting nasty combination of enemies and pretty much anyone at level 395 has more than 10K HP (and quite a few has more than that at just level 200). So while Captain America is probably just as cheap as StormNeto, his enemies have way more HP so that even with the same kind of cheese, you can't reliably win because your enemies can tough it out.

I think I understand it better. Gorgon is tougher with more scaling(duh!) and even the best 3-4* roster doesn't change that.

I guess I was just surprised that 3-4* rosters really couldn't handle it. Maybe I really shouldn't fret over not being able to level my peeps then, lol.

dkffiv

raisinbman wrote:

I think I understand it better. Gorgon is tougher with more scaling(duh!) and even the best 3-4* roster doesn't change that.

I guess I was just surprised that 3-4* rosters really couldn't handle it. Maybe I really shouldn't fret over not being able to level my peeps then, lol.

To be honest the heroes aren't so bad, its the fact that the goons are so damn cheap. I just owned Wolverine but took 5k damage to everyone else on my team against the remaining 2 Goons. If you bring defense characters with protect tiles you get 1 shot by Adamantium Slashes for taking too long, if you down wolverine fast you end up taking 10 caltrops before you can eat through 12k worth of goon health. Ended the match with Daken near full life, 196 daredevil dead and 166 human torch down to under 20% life.

Unknown

dkffiv wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

I think I understand it better. Gorgon is tougher with more scaling(duh!) and even the best 3-4* roster doesn't change that.

I guess I was just surprised that 3-4* rosters really couldn't handle it. Maybe I really shouldn't fret over not being able to level my peeps then, lol.

To be honest the heroes aren't so bad, its the fact that the goons are so damn cheap. I just owned Wolverine but took 5k damage to everyone else on my team against the remaining 2 Goons. If you bring defense characters with protect tiles you get 1 shot by Adamantium Slashes for taking too long, if you down wolverine fast you end up taking 10 caltrops before you can eat through 12k worth of goon health. Ended the match with Daken near full life, 196 daredevil dead and 166 human torch down to under 20% life.

Like I said earlier, its sad that Caltrops is better than Daredevil's traps have ever been, lol.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

Like I said earlier, its sad that Caltrops is better than Daredevil's traps have ever been, lol.

That's like saying Threaten is better than Battleplan. Caltrops, being an enemy only ability, is not meant to be remotely fair compared to abilities you can use.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Like I said earlier, its sad that Caltrops is better than Daredevil's traps have ever been, lol.

That's like saying Threaten is better than Battleplan. Caltrops, being an enemy only ability, is not meant to be remotely fair compared to abilities you can use.

I understand that. Really its more of a funny observation than anything:

D3: Okay guys, lets rerelease Daredevil and move his traps to another character who's even "better".

*Both characters are released near an event where a new enemy with a new trap outshines them*

Offtopic: Threaten is super-OP.

Unknown

Hells Kitchen - the third installment of this PvE is SO HARD! (& dull)

I was having a great time doing the survival modes switching characters around, playing with new combos -
Doctor Octopus is actaully OK! - THanks for suggesting that ark123!

But this Gorgon + wolverine + Handimen = pain - Same boring combinations for little points - many nodes boring.

I can only play one team against them - it's sad, dies alot on unlucky boards and takes a loooong time to clear.

SO, PLease developers - don't do this format again - go back to survival modes - that was cool!

And a thank you for fixing the bugged nodes over christmas - that was nice.

Edit: THANK YOU! survival mode comes back in "The Fortress"! great!

Moon Roach

Hand Fortress, oh dear, Wolveroach with his 6 maxed 2* and puny 3* can't get past The Work, which is "only" level 105. Not even with Wolverine back buffed to 134. 4 tries, 4 defeats, no health packs left.

Gorgon + 2 Shinobi is rather tricky.

Out of interest, does Gorgon drop team-ups?

fmftint

Moon Roach wrote:

Hand Fortress, oh dear, Wolveroach with his 6 maxed 2* and puny 3* can't get past The Work, which is "only" level 105. Not even with Wolverine back buffed to 134. 4 tries, 4 defeats, no health packs left.

Gorgon + 2 Shinobi is rather tricky.

Out of interest, does Gorgon drop team-ups?

I used 2* Cap, 2* Wolverine, Blade (68, 3/1/1)
Locked down Gorgon while I burned the pumps.
Let Wolv eat as much damage as I could get him in front of

squirrel1120

Moon Roach wrote:

Hand Fortress, oh dear, Wolveroach with his 6 maxed 2* and puny 3* can't get past The Work, which is "only" level 105. Not even with Wolverine back buffed to 134. 4 tries, 4 defeats, no health packs left.

Gorgon + 2 Shinobi is rather tricky.

Out of interest, does Gorgon drop team-ups?

The work is a seriously nasty node. I'm done trying to stormneto burst that one down. In the rare case there is enough purple AND he doesn't chase it, it's doable, but 3 boards in a row that didn't happen and he wrecked them hard. I used all health packs and boosts each fight; what a waste. I ended up bringing cap/falcon/im40 and took him down (@ his lvl 132) with only one debilitating slash to cap. Took my purple but I was able to finish the node without needing defenses much. Just a little more room for error with an 8k tank that can actually take a hit.

Stormneto can take out higher level enemies, it's true. It's just a no margin for error situation with goons feeding ap. I finished most of the end of gauntlet with them this last run.

Unknown

Well this became alot less fun after Falcon got 1 shot, and Magneto was at 1 HP. Guess that's what I get, eh....

eidehua

Glad to have wolvie back, he was missed.

Moon Roach

Elektra, Shadow Step. Completely negates the damage that would be done by Strength In Numbers. It just takes a little timing.

If ever there was a time grinding like a loon for top #10 was well worth the effort, getting 2 Elektra covers in Prodigal Sun was it.