*** Mystique (Raven Darkholme) ***

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Changing 5 tiles to a different color twice is nothing like changing 10 tiles to the same color once.

In terms of the actual amount of tiles destroyed, it seems like it's actually pretty similar. Of course, getting 5 green AP is infinitely better than getting 3 black and 3 purple, but the actual amount of tiles is similar.

You're probably using it on a neutral board on the simulator, but a move like Thunder Strike you'd not use it on a neutral board. You'd wait until you have about 10-11 green and then it'd likely destroy half of the board. To do the same with 2 different colors you'd need to have 10-11 purple and black at the same time, which is considerably less likely. To be fair the limited condition for Mystique allows you to have some ability to predict what kind of cascade you can get and potentially make a better move than the predicted average, but it seems complicated enough to not be feasible at least for PvP where time is of the essence.

You got me. I guess I now have to support running the simulations on boards with arbitrary distributions, run the tests for every board containing 1-20 tiles of the given color, and plot all of that data in a graph. Check back in half a year.

MarcusGraves

ark123 wrote:

She can masterstroke me anytime

*ba dum tss*

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Changing 5 tiles to a different color twice is nothing like changing 10 tiles to the same color once.

In terms of the actual amount of tiles destroyed, it seems like it's actually pretty similar. Of course, getting 5 green AP is infinitely better than getting 3 black and 3 purple, but the actual amount of tiles is similar.

You're probably using it on a neutral board on the simulator, but a move like Thunder Strike you'd not use it on a neutral board. You'd wait until you have about 10-11 green and then it'd likely destroy half of the board. To do the same with 2 different colors you'd need to have 10-11 purple and black at the same time, which is considerably less likely. To be fair the limited condition for Mystique allows you to have some ability to predict what kind of cascade you can get and potentially make a better move than the predicted average, but it seems complicated enough to not be feasible at least for PvP where time is of the essence.

You got me. I guess I now have to support running the simulations on boards with arbitrary distributions, run the tests for every board containing 1-20 tiles of the given color, and plot all of that data in a graph. Check back in half a year.

I use Thuderstrike on boards with 5-8 green tiles all the time. Especially if the reason there are 5-8 green tiles is I have 11 Green AP.

Correct me if I am wrong NorthernPolarity, but your simulator runs on randomly created boards right? So assuming a varied distribution of random boards the more destructive power of a green heavy board is included in your "average" tiles destroyed right? Of course you want to maximize your chance at above average results, but that doesn't lessen the value of knowing what an "average" result looks like.

To get the same destructive value of cascade from Mystique I imagine you only need about 8 of each Purple and Blue, and then adding 10 tiles, (so 13 purple 13 blue) will mess up the board. 8 of each is very doable, average board distribution even. Casting Thunderstrike with 10 green results in 16 green, but can only match with green. I trust in NP's simulations that the two powers cascade with about the same frequency, I just don't value board shake up that highly. Not above AP steal and certainly not above direct damage.

Unknown

So My thoughts so far are to use her with Hood and BP or X-force. If she is going to play like a support with a decent black, Why not give in to the support role and let her feed a great black ability instead of her own good one? My vote going to go against the grain with a 5/5/3 Because Hood's DA is great and Shapeshift looks good, but paired together? Damn, I want that combo all day long and someone to feed it all to.

Unknown

Don't know about you guys but using her blue in that first pve node I was shocked how useful it is.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Changing 5 tiles to a different color twice is nothing like changing 10 tiles to the same color once.

In terms of the actual amount of tiles destroyed, it seems like it's actually pretty similar. Of course, getting 5 green AP is infinitely better than getting 3 black and 3 purple, but the actual amount of tiles is similar.

You're probably using it on a neutral board on the simulator, but a move like Thunder Strike you'd not use it on a neutral board. You'd wait until you have about 10-11 green and then it'd likely destroy half of the board. To do the same with 2 different colors you'd need to have 10-11 purple and black at the same time, which is considerably less likely. To be fair the limited condition for Mystique allows you to have some ability to predict what kind of cascade you can get and potentially make a better move than the predicted average, but it seems complicated enough to not be feasible at least for PvP where time is of the essence.

Disagree, unless the board was particularly abundant with it's yellow, you're likely focusing on green as your secondary color to collect, especially if you're taking laken with your LT. So you'd actually have fewer greens on the board than a fresh one, and probably not many in positions that are close to being matched

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

I use Thuderstrike on boards with 5-8 green tiles all the time. Especially if the reason there are 5-8 green tiles is I have 11 Green AP.

Correct me if I am wrong NorthernPolarity, but your simulator runs on randomly created boards right? So assuming a varied distribution of random boards the more destructive power of a green heavy board is included in your "average" tiles destroyed right? Of course you want to maximize your chance at above average results, but that doesn't lessen the value of knowing what an "average" result looks like.

To get the same destructive value of cascade from Mystique I imagine you only need about 8 of each Purple and Blue, and then adding 10 tiles, (so 13 purple 13 blue) will mess up the board. 8 of each is very doable, average board distribution even. Casting Thunderstrike with 10 green results in 16 green, but can only match with green. I trust in NP's simulations that the two powers cascade with about the same frequency, I just don't value board shake up that highly. Not above AP steal and certainly not above direct damage.

- Infiltration adds Purple/Black, not Purple/Blue. If you only farm Blue, it makes it more powerful.
- Shake-up is usually not as powerful direct damage.

Board shake-up based on destruction and shake-up based on matching are 2 slightly different animals. Destruction tends to create a much more randomized board, whereas matching tends to polarize areas of the board, leading to further cascades or match-4,5 opportunities.

I'm just still amazed at how well MNMags+Mystique + Storm/XForce leads to game ending combos with careful matching and placement. Seriously, some Mawkeye fans have to try this combo.


I also think Mystique's transformation ability is one of the neatest in the game. I've always wanted to have that bearded grenadier on my side!

Phaserhawk

locked wrote:

I don't see why people vote for 5/3/5. Sure damage potential is nice but black is contested by other top characters whose black abilities are just flat out better: BP and X-Force. You probably want 5 in black if you are a transitioner and lack good damage options but frankly you shouldn't be relying on a squishy 5950 character with a 19 AP combo for the damage at any rate.
Meanwhile NorthernPolarity's simulation says that Mystique blue at 5 covers is almost as good as Thunder Strike, the best yellow ability in the entire game.

Therein lies the issue when saying "best build" I agree, in current meta she is better suited 5/5/3 since you wouldn't want anything else other than Surgical strike going off. People need to remember though, she only does that massive damage if her shapshift tile is still out, so in reality for max damage this skill costs 19 for a 7302 nuke. I plan on using her as a purple/black accelerator that occasionally steals. I mean according to NP's cascade simulator, for 9 blue I can avg back 7 AP of which most will be purple or black, and then surgical strike and shapshift can potentially lock down a team. I will admit, if you get her Masterstroke to go off, it's more damage than a Surgical Strike does, but it doesn't create the cascade or generate the AP

For me, 5/5/3 all the way, maybe 5/4/4 once I see all of Black's stats but Masterstroke is a 19 AP damage skill, not an 11. You need 8 Purple, into an 11 Black to get the 7302 dmg, otherwise you are only doing 3130. At that its a 284 dmg per AP skill vs. the full combo which is 384 dmg per AP. But a well constructed team comp could much easily Surgical Strike into AP that can fuel another skill for free possible using 19 AP to do the same amount of damage but only costing you 11.

To me Masterstroke could be good in PvE when you need to nuke those high life targets, but she doesn't really have the hit points to stick her neck out to get that purple, where as an X-Force could do it with more safety. No, IMO if you want to use her at all in PvP you have to build her 5/5/3

GrimSkald

MarcusGraves wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

what the heck is her icon?

lips baby, cause you gunna be kissing your **** goodbye if she lands a fully powered masterstroke which btw from getting to play her as 5/3/5 in the sim only takes 2 yellow from your AP, ill take that downside for the damage done + enemy AP drain.

I swear, all I can think of when I see her icon is the following:

Michael Rennie was ill
The Day the Earth Stood Still
But he told us where we stand
And Flash Gordon was there
In silver underwear
Claude Rains was The Invisible Man
Then something went wrong
For Fay Wray and King Kong
They got caught in a celluloid jam
Then at a deadly pace
It Came From Outer Space
And this is how the message ran...

Unknown

MarcusGraves wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

what the heck is her icon?

lips baby, cause you gunna be kissing your **** goodbye if she lands a fully powered masterstroke which btw from getting to play her as 5/3/5 in the sim only takes 2 yellow from your AP, ill take that downside for the damage done + enemy AP drain.

Why? She has skulls all over her, classic association, yet they went with lips? Ugly, ugly, ugly lips.


Sorry just needed to get that out...

Phaserhawk

Punisher already has the skull

mags1587

Phaserhawk wrote:

Punisher already has the skull

True, but Yelena and Widow both have a version of an hourglass, so you think they could have done something. Even if they couldn't use a skull, though, what they did use is just ridiculous. Everyone else gets some sort of icon or symbol, and Mystique gets teeth.

Unknown

mags1587 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Punisher already has the skull

True, but Yelena and Widow both have a version of an hourglass, so you think they could have done something. Even if they couldn't use a skull, though, what they did use is just ridiculous. Everyone else gets some sort of icon or symbol, and Mystique gets teeth.

This is what I was talking about..her icon looks weird as ish yet her tile-icon is fine. They could've just given her a smirking blue mouth, really. Unless they turned Mystique into Wolverine while I haven't looked in the comics why is she baring her teeth??? Makes no sense.

Unknown

mags1587 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Punisher already has the skull

True, but Yelena and Widow both have a version of an hourglass, so you think they could have done something. Even if they couldn't use a skull, though, what they did use is just ridiculous. Everyone else gets some sort of icon or symbol, and Mystique gets teeth.

Blade got sunglasses, Mystique got teeth - Disney owns Marvel, so it shouldn't be too long before we get Pinnochio as a playable character, and he'll obviously get a nose as an icon.

Then you can run Team Face.

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

mags1587 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Punisher already has the skull

True, but Yelena and Widow both have a version of an hourglass, so you think they could have done something. Even if they couldn't use a skull, though, what they did use is just ridiculous. Everyone else gets some sort of icon or symbol, and Mystique gets teeth.

This is what I was talking about..her icon looks weird as ish yet her tile-icon is fine. They could've just given her a smirking blue mouth, really. Unless they turned Mystique into Wolverine while I haven't looked in the comics why is she baring her teeth??? Makes no sense.

Those teeth are scary. Like she's trying to eat you or something. The pucker lip icon would have been ok, this is just.... eesh. Someone needs to start a thread about how the teeth are offensive so we can get it changed to a picture of her chest.

turul

Too bad Mystique cant cast Shapeshift properly twice. (It replaces the CD tile).

We should make the devs change this, so Mystique would be more fun and a bit higher tier.

Unknown

turul wrote:

Too bad Mystique cant cast Shapeshift properly twice. (It replaces the CD tile).

We should make the devs change this, so Mystique would be more fun and a bit higher tier.

I actually think she just might be the best out of the new characters (other than thoreena of course)

wymtime

ark123 wrote:

turul wrote:

Too bad Mystique cant cast Shapeshift properly twice. (It replaces the CD tile).

We should make the devs change this, so Mystique would be more fun and a bit higher tier.

I actually think she just might be the best out of the new characters (other than thoreena of course)

I would not put her over Blade. He gives free strike tiles, direct damage with AP steal, and potential for huge attack tiles. Yes Mystique has a better AP steal, but has lower health and her nuke requires a lot of HP to fire as a big nuke. Blade can easily be swaped in for Daken or Hood for climbing in PVP, and will work very well in PVE where you can ignore red easily.

Neither one are top 5 characters and if you look at the release since the anniversary I would put them in this order:
Thor
Blade
Devil Dino-19k health and 2 7AP damage makes him annoying
Mystique
Captian Marvel

If you want to swap Mystique with Dino I would not really argue. I don't remember there was another character released in this time or not.

over_clocked

For pasta's sake, people, it's not Thora, Thorina, Thoreena, girl Thor, Thoress, whatever other silly name, it's just Thor. Make it TGT, GT for The Goddess of Thunder if you want, I settled with 4or (kudos to people that came up with that) since we have an alliance mate going by GT.

Unknown

I propose Lady Thoreena(Who Has A Vageena)

Nobody is going to call her Thor. Forget it.