*** Blade (Daywalker) ***

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  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Here's a question for everyone. How many times in PvP do you have Xforce and Hood plus whoever against a sentry and hood and all of a sudden you eat a supernova because you weren't paying attention because you were focused on green and black? Now if whoever character has red as their main you may be able to protect yourself with night stalker but you leave lots of red. so if you go 3/5/5 you are gimping the most useable skill, and beefing up 1 skill you probably won't cast that's not reliable damage and a skill you can't controll I hopes of pping up a skill you probably won't cast. And if you are collecting purple you are definetely giving up a color you shouldn't
    Be. Sure purple is strong but it's next turn damage and single target. Maybe 5/3/5 is the way to go?

    problem you end up with on 5/3/5 though is that the purple will be quite the clunker on damage whenever you get 10 purple since you will only get 1 attack tile even with the max green.

    hoping all my math is correct, feel free to go over it but I think for this situation it would be best to look at the minimum damage it would be doing with at least 1 proc of Thirst to see the least amount of damage you'd be getting.

    -Rank 5 Purple with 1 rank 3 green strike tile out: 382 + 105 (bonus) = 487 x 2 (attack tiles) = 974 +82 (strike tile) =1056 per turn

    -Rank 3 purple with 2 rank 5 green strike tiles out: 260 + 210 (bonus x2) = 470 + 116 (strength 58 strike tile x2) = 586 per turn

    -Rank 5 purple with 2 rank 5 green strike tiles out: 382 + 210 (bonus x2) = 592 x 2 (attack tiles) = 1184 + 116 (strength 58 strike tile x2) = 1300 Per turn

    so assuming once again that all my math is correct you'll get much more damage out of a rank 5 purple with rank 3 green because of the 2nd attack tile than the other way around. it also has some merit (though it doesn't matter much nowadays) that a rank 5 purple helps on defense because the player probably won't be trying to denying AI purple AP and could sometimes be caught off guard by the burn damage coming through.

    I still have a problem with maxing black, yeah it is his most usable power but once they are drained out the CD tile does nothing until they make a match of that color again which bothers me and I would rather have the stronger green for better match damage + burn in a 3/5/5 build.

    all that said 5/5/3 is probably his more active build while 3/5/5 is a burn build with higher match damage with getting +116 damage from rank 5 green, 5/3/5 is the build I would honestly avoid because purple is just too much of a clunker at rank 3.
  • wymtimewymtime Posts: 3,439 Chairperson of the Boards
    As I have tried blade out in story mode it comes down to 2 skills AP drain as fast as you can and how much damage can you make his attack tiles worth. If you want to run Blade by himself as the only strike tile creator his best build in my opinion is 3,5,5. Black will still drain 2 AP per turn and you will get out the most strike tiles to max out purple. Purple will then do an extra 2024 damage plus 6 strike tiles if you can keep red on the board.
    The biggest issue with this build is if you strike tiles get matched or not enough red on the board. This is why 5 green is so critical becuase if you only have 2 strike tiles out when you have 10 purple you drop to 1184 damage for both tiles.

    If you are going to bring a strike tile generator with you just go 5,5,3. If you use Patch at 5 green you will get over 1k damage for your match and an addition 2900 damage from Blades attack tiles. You will also max damage on Blade's black and drain up to 3 AP per turn. With another more consistant strike tile gererator out like Patch or Daken you are more likely to get 2 max attack tiles out that will do an additional 2k+ damage. I also have been thinking about the way Doc Ock worked with Patch. It wasn't so much the power of the attack tile but how it added the addional strike tile damage.
    The issue with this build is you are relying on lower health characters and he will not be as self sufficient.

    I will also say this you can get him to 3,3,3 or 4,4,4 and he is actually playable since his black will be used as an AP steal, green is passive, and purple does not have much competition. D3 did a nice job building Blade so a thumbs up to D3.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Here's a question for everyone. How many times in PvP do you have Xforce and Hood plus whoever against a sentry and hood and all of a sudden you eat a supernova because you weren't paying attention because you were focused on green and black? Now if whoever character has red as their main you may be able to protect yourself with night stalker but you leave lots of red. so if you go 3/5/5 you are gimping the most useable skill, and beefing up 1 skill you probably won't cast that's not reliable damage and a skill you can't controll I hopes of pping up a skill you probably won't cast. And if you are collecting purple you are definetely giving up a color you shouldn't
    Be. Sure purple is strong but it's next turn damage and single target. Maybe 5/3/5 is the way to go?

    I still have a problem with maxing black, yeah it is his most usable power but once they are drained out the CD tile does nothing until they make a match of that color again which bothers me and I would rather have the stronger green for better match damage + burn in a 3/5/5 build.

    Or you down the character that has the highest color and start stealing a new one
  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    Phaserhawk wrote:

    Or you down the character that has the highest color and start stealing a new one

    wouldn't it be fantastic if they added to the strongest color mechanic, "if enemy has 0 AP of strongest color, next strongest is drained instead" would probably be too strong though with blade's CD tile if that were that case.

    math is all correct for purple yes?
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    My biggest issue with Green, is that you have to leave red on the board to get red strike tiles, which is going to increase the chance they will get matched, thus negating all the work you just did to get the tiles out. I think I"m going to future proof my Blade and go 5/5/3. While right now they're arent' too many threats in PvP with red as their strongest, the only two currently being Sentry and Thor, I still think that 4* Thor is going to be a problem not to mention those PvP's when you have Torch, C.Mags that when boosted really hurt, and now you are giving them red? And who knows, next character could have red as their main and be a PvP staple. Eventually there will be a character that leaving red will be a major threat in PvP, not to mention in PvE there are loads of red threats, I just don't want that left, thus I will be passing on his green. It is great, I understanding the 3/5/5 or 5/3/5, I just think in the long run 5/5/3 is the safer bet.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    On paper, I'm inclined to go 4/5/4

    Purple I feel is a must at 5. It's double damage per turn, and purple is obviously a rare offensive skill to have.

    So it becomes black/green debate. I agree with Phaserhawk to an extent, Blade's green is mostly a happy accident because you're likely going to spend time denying red. When it does trigger, I'd rather the damage maximized, and that happens at 4, not 3. Not to mention the extra tile created strengthens his own Purple faster.

    The extra AP/turn is unlikely to make a large difference unless you're slow to release his black and the AI has a healthy AP reserve, in which case you're probably dead anyway. I would still take the damage boost at 4 black over the extra red tile, since at either 11/10 red, it will be slow to release.

    It looks to me like XForce-cMags-Blade would be lethal. Full rainbow, and Mags/XForce can expedite Blade's green passive. (provided surgical strike isn't hitting red to begin with). The two overlaps (yellow/black) are both painful in their own right, so it looks AI-proof to boot.
  • hurculeshurcules Age Unconfirmed Posts: 519
    It looks to me like XForce-cMags-Blade would be lethal. Full rainbow, and Mags/XForce can expedite Blade's green passive. (provided surgical strike isn't hitting red to begin with). The two overlaps (yellow/black) are both painful in their own right, so it looks AI-proof to boot.
    Even if XForce take out strike tiles, Blade generates strike tiles so easily that you don't really need to babysit red tiles availability. Furthermore, Surgical Strike (when removing non-red tiles) or Polarizing Force removing TU tiles should ensure even more red tiles on board to facilitate Thirst procs.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    On paper, I'm inclined to go 4/5/4

    Purple I feel is a must at 5. It's double damage per turn, and purple is obviously a rare offensive skill to have.

    So it becomes black/green debate. I agree with Phaserhawk to an extent, Blade's green is mostly a happy accident because you're likely going to spend time denying red. When it does trigger, I'd rather the damage maximized, and that happens at 4, not 3. Not to mention the extra tile created strengthens his own Purple faster.

    The extra AP/turn is unlikely to make a large difference unless you're slow to release his black and the AI has a healthy AP reserve, in which case you're probably dead anyway. I would still take the damage boost at 4 black over the extra red tile, since at either 11/10 red, it will be slow to release.

    It looks to me like XForce-cMags-Blade would be lethal. Full rainbow, and Mags/XForce can expedite Blade's green passive. (provided surgical strike isn't hitting red to begin with). The two overlaps (yellow/black) are both painful in their own right, so it looks AI-proof to boot.

    However, standalone Green at 3 is better than Green at 4. Trust me an 89 strike tile is better than 2 58's, Green is either 5 or 3, 4 is bad. Black is the only skill where going 4 is okay, but that means you have to go 4 in something else which is bad.

    I have decided to go 3/5/5 despite my initial thoughts, but I will treat the board as if I"m 5/5/3, meaning I will not play to leave red on the board, and by doing that, having Green trigger on a lower threshold is more important, and you play black for the steal not the damage, so 2 vs 3 only matters the first turn or so, after that it will be a dead draw. If The Thirst doesn't trigger as much as I hope even with 5, then I will switch to 5/5/3. I don't think 5/3/5 is that great of a build because it is so PvP specific, essentially you are saying "screw purple, and I won't use red, if I could have a lvl 166 0/0/5 Blade I would"
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    However, standalone Green at 3 is better than Green at 4. Trust me an 89 strike tile is better than 2 58's, Green is either 5 or 3, 4 is bad. Black is the only skill where going 4 is okay, but that means you have to go 4 in something else which is bad.
    Why is an 89 strike tile better than two 58 strike tiles? 58 + 58 = 116. Even if the sum of the two strike tiles at level 4 were the same as the single tile at level 3 getting two would still be better because it helps boost purple's attack tile strength.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    vudu3 wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    However, standalone Green at 3 is better than Green at 4. Trust me an 89 strike tile is better than 2 58's, Green is either 5 or 3, 4 is bad. Black is the only skill where going 4 is okay, but that means you have to go 4 in something else which is bad.
    Why is an 89 strike tile better than two 58 strike tiles? 58 + 58 = 116. Even if the sum of the two strike tiles at level 4 were the same as the single tile at level 3 getting two would still be better because it helps boost purple's attack tile strength.

    The idea is that once all of the red tiles on the board are filled up, you can get much more theoretical damage if they were all 89 strength tiles as opposed to 58 strength tiles. I don't really buy this argument since it takes a long time for the board to fill up if you're just adding one tile at a time (and the nonbo with purple like you said), but thats where he's coming from.
  • SpoitSpoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    vudu3 wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    However, standalone Green at 3 is better than Green at 4. Trust me an 89 strike tile is better than 2 58's, Green is either 5 or 3, 4 is bad. Black is the only skill where going 4 is okay, but that means you have to go 4 in something else which is bad.
    Why is an 89 strike tile better than two 58 strike tiles? 58 + 58 = 116. Even if the sum of the two strike tiles at level 4 were the same as the single tile at level 3 getting two would still be better because it helps boost purple's attack tile strength.

    The idea is that once all of the red tiles on the board are filled up, you can get much more theoretical damage if they were all 89 strength tiles as opposed to 58 strength tiles. I don't really buy this argument since it takes a long time for the board to fill up if you're just adding one tile at a time (and the nonbo with purple like you said), but thats where he's coming from.
    Yeah, I heard the same argument with laken too, but I don't see it
  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    I also think getting the two 58 tiles is better than the single, theoretical damage is neat but then you gotta consider what is going to be happening on the board. 4/5 matches blowing up rows, enemy powers shifting the board, cascades and even just normal 3 matches getting in the way of you keeping that strike tile out. being able to keep some of your damage boost out when the **** hits the fan is important.

    after getting to play the 4/5/4 blade in gauntlet, I would totally play him as 3/5/5. I know he was boosted to level 217 but that purple's damage was just tasty when I popped it with 4 strike tiles out thanks to the double tiles from green. aw they were just melting under the damage from it, it was wonderful and I only used it once and it took out all 3 enemy's on its own.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    However, standalone Green at 3 is better than Green at 4. Trust me an 89 strike tile is better than 2 58's, Green is either 5 or 3, 4 is bad. Black is the only skill where going 4 is okay, but that means you have to go 4 in something else which is bad.

    In a vacuum, maybe. However, Blade's purple feeds on quantity, not quality. The extra 105 on his attack tiles will more than make up the difference the 24 difference on the strike tile(s). To exaggerate for effect, if 4 green created 10 1-strength tiles, it'd still be more valuable than the skill as is at 3-green.

    I just don't see either 4->5 black or 4->5 green as skills that really jump out and say "that's a must have," which leads me to think 4/5/4 is best balanced, but 'optimal' certainly seems to be user-dependant.
  • In the games I've played with Blade I pretty much had a land mine of red tiles sitting around to get his passive to trigger and I don't see how having 1 less red would've made a significant difference. Sometimes I had red match 4s just sitting on the field because if I matched that there would be nowhere near enough red left to trigger it, which is fine when it's all goons but sure won't work against anyone that can move the board. I just don't see how green is going to be useful unless both sides lack a significant red power, and it's especially hard in PvE where enemies get 5/5/5 covers. For example Thor's (3*) red is not that strong in PvP, but it still hurts a lot when used by a 5/5/5 PvE version of Thor.
  • ThatOneGuyjp189512ThatOneGuyjp189512 Posts: 543 Critical Contributor
    i like my 5/5/3 simply cause it's the best offensive build, i've only gotten his green to activate in maybe like....half the matches i played with him pvp, and i paired him with daken so getting strike tiles to get his pink bonus wasn't a problem. Using his black against goons essentially gives you unlimited AP in their strongest color, he'll be absolutely stellar in PVE for that reason alone, in PVP he's a good sub for hood, but the fact that his black is an ability means you have to get the AP to get it off as opposed to hood's blue which activates every turn with no need for AP.
  • Wow, I have never seen the voting so split among the 5/5/3 options. I voted for 5/3/5 for 2 reasons. 1) AP drain is awesome. Blade's Black is cheap enough to send off early, and possibly use twice in a fight, to keep the enemy AP suppressed in their "strongest" color. and B) Reducing the Thirst needed red tiles to 10 is huge. Assuming the boost off of Purple is maxed out I will take the level 3 attack tile strength no problem. I'd rather have more red strike tiles to feed to Daken's CR. A continual drain of 2 AP per turn is pretty good supresssion, so I could see 3/5/5, but that neglects the direct damage for black, which is huge and hard to find outside of BP.

    Thor/Daken/Blade is a great team and I voted 5/3/5 for the best synergy for them. 10 red on the board making 2 attack tiles a round, match nothing but green and blue and watch the enemy team fade away. If you ever get to Call the Storm it's over, or it might be over before that thanks to enough Chemical Reactions. If you even get to cast KYEC think of it as a bonus. This team alone might make me rethink a 5/3/5 Daken.
  • vudu3vudu3 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
    Lerysh wrote:
    AP drain is awesome. Blade's Black is cheap enough to send off early, and possibly use twice in a fight, to keep the enemy AP suppressed in their "strongest" color.
    Why would you ever need two level 5 AP drain CD tiles out at once? The only example where it would be useful is PVE where you have two goons feeding a powered-up hero a color that happens to be their strongest (e.g. two grenaders feeding Ares green). In every other case a single CD tile will be fine and in most cases a level 3 CD tile siphoning off 2 AP/turn will be sufficient.

    I'm not impressed with Blade's AP steal. It sounds good in theory but in most cases you're not stealing the color that's going to hurt the most. You're stealing red from Thor and not yellow or green. You're stealing yellow from Panther and not black. etc. It's not a bad power but it's uses are limited and it doesn't beat Dormammu's Aid.
  • SandmakerSandmaker Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
    edited October 2014
    For those curious about the math on Green Lvl 1-4 vs Green Lvl 5.

    You can use a binomial distribution to calculate the probability K Red tiles occurring, given a trial size of 64 (the size of the board) and probability of red occurring at 1/7=0.1429.

    So the probability of exactly K Red occurring on the board is:

    P(K=10)=0.1301
    P(K=11)=0.1065
    P(K=12)=0.0784
    P(K=13)=0.0523
    P(K=14)=0.0318
    ...
    P(K=64)= 0.0000..... (lots of zeros)

    To find out the probability of K>=11 and K>=10, you sum the individual discrete probabilities from that point upwards to K=64.

    So:
    P(K>=10) = 0.1301 + 0.1065 + 0.0784 + 0.0523 + 0.0318 + ....
    P(K>=10) = 0.4330

    P(K>=11) = 0.1065 + 0.0784 + 0.0523 + 0.0318 + ....
    P(K>=11) = 0.3029

    This is all assuming a totally random board of course. Player actions will naturally skew these probability. However, they still give you a sense of the upgrade at Green Lvl 5.
  • vudu3 wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    AP drain is awesome. Blade's Black is cheap enough to send off early, and possibly use twice in a fight, to keep the enemy AP suppressed in their "strongest" color.
    Why would you ever need two level 5 AP drain CD tiles out at once? The only example where it would be useful is PVE where you have two goons feeding a powered-up hero a color that happens to be their strongest (e.g. two grenaders feeding Ares green). In every other case a single CD tile will be fine and in most cases a level 3 CD tile siphoning off 2 AP/turn will be sufficient.

    I'm not impressed with Blade's AP steal. It sounds good in theory but in most cases you're not stealing the color that's going to hurt the most. You're stealing red from Thor and not yellow or green. You're stealing yellow from Panther and not black. etc. It's not a bad power but it's uses are limited and it doesn't beat Dormammu's Aid.

    Because tiles can be matched. Or die to board shake. Or because cascades often provide more than 3 ap.
  • homeinvasionhomeinvasion Age Unconfirmed Posts: 415 Mover and Shaker
    I think Blade's green is really underwhelming, it's like Deadpool's black in that it is way too unreliable so PVE only. So if you want him for PVE then 3/5/5 or 5/3/5 (also a great Hood killer with Daken, probably great with sentry for PVE only)

    But PVP is a lot to do with what your team will do on defense, and you also find that you hit a threshold with Daken and Blade where you leave so much red on the board you are not refreshing the table and creating match 5 and wicked cascade mechanics for an AI that is already looking for them. in all of my games I had this massive heap of strikes, not doing an amazing amount of match damage then the AI goes yep I'll have that and generates a 10 turn cascade wiping them all off.So I think 5/5/3 because; the synergy with Daken is obvious, but I am tempted to look at a Daken build that leverages off Daken's Blue at 5 and leave Blade's green on 3 so minimize the damage for matches but maximize the number of strike tiles being generated. The problem with Daken's blue is you are always hesitant to use it and wipe your tiles off the board but 5 blue for 2774 is not to be sneezed at. Chuck in Thor, you have 2 green generators (3 if the opponents strongest color is green) generate more strikes from all those green matches and you are not scared to match away red. Lets face it if you are using Thor's abilities and clearing out the board you don't care if you lose a few strikes.

    You also get a viable rainbow with genuine threats on all 6 colors. Only one ability of each color, which guarantees the Ai will work the way it is supposed to.
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