*** Doctor Octopus (Otto Octavius) ***

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Comments

  • OnesOwnGrief
    OnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blue is more suited to deal with Storm, Magneto, and Falcon than L Daken and Sentry. I wouldn't even think it would even get close to handling them. Also, he's not so great in the health department.
  • He doesn't have to TANK Blue in order to USE blue ya know.

    I didn't consider Storm or Falcon because they, relatively, are terrible. Technically Doc Oct should be able to eat those characters alive, yes, but Laken and Sentry are the big threats with the special tiles, and here we have a dedicated special tile eradicator apparently who is terrible at his job.

    As far as build, I'm leaning towards 5/4/4. The difference between 2 turns and 1 turn of stun can be huge, between 3 turns and 2 turns not as much. Because blue hampers his ability to use black, and black hampers the effectiveness of blue, could be that 5/3/5 is the way to go. You either get a ton of attack tiles, or you don't, and the strike tiles you have will work if you get 1 or 2 or 10 so...

    Edit: Also, who here wishes Armed and Dangerous did 2100 damage to 1 random target, and stunned them, instead of a terrible 783 AoE damage?
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    john1620b wrote:
    Yeah, I agree with Lerysh. I voted for 3/5/5, because there's no guarantee that special tiles will be swapped -- if there's only a few special tiles on the board, you have a ~1/4 chance of matching them. It'd be good against Storm or Sentry, but less useful everywhere.

    Then again, green isn't that hot going from 3 to 5 either, so I'm not completely set on the build I voted for, either.

    5 blue is absolutely necessary vs goons in pve, which will be one of his main niches. I think its a big mistake to not have 5 blue as a result.
  • MarcusGraves
    MarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    Lerysh wrote:

    So, basically, against anyone but Sentry this power is a more expensive less useful version of Illusions? 11 AP is WAY to expensive for this power, unless it has a preference for special tiles in it's randomness, which I doubt. If there were 3 special tiles on the board and I had 5 covers in this, if I used it and got 0 damage I would be pissed off. I would much MUCH rather have a power that did targeted elimination of special tiles, 0 damage, which is more in line with a blue power anyway. How many blue powers actually do damage?

    If, instead of swaps, it just destroyed X random specials from among the list of Attack tiles at 1, plus Strikes at 2, plus Protects at 4, plus CDs at 5, and then maybe a lower damage per tile destroyed I would be much happier. If this destruction then also triggered his passive it would be worth something like 11 AP, but an 8 random tile swap for 11 AP? Seriously?

    its not 8 tiles, its 8 pairs which means 16 tiles will be swapped but it really could be 9 pairs for that cost. also the wording says "destroying any swapped" which sounds like the blow up damage would take place after any matches made by the power giving the passive a chance to proc.

    the passive really is the best thing about him, a free attack tile is great if you pair him with someone like patch and can match one of the created enemy strike tiles you'll get 1166 damage at the end of the turn from the 2 attack tiles + patch strikes
  • Unknown
    edited September 2014
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    IceIX Edit: As per always, pre-release numbers.
    Armed and Dangerous - Green 12 AP
    The fury of Doctor Octopus is unleashed as his metal arms strike, constrict and mangle all his opponents at once. Deals 82 damage to all enemies, then stuns a random enemy for 1 turn, reduces enemy AP in their strongest color by 1, and destroys a random enemy Countdown tile.
    Level Upgrades
      Level 2: Deals 164 damage to the enemy team. Level 3: Destroys 3 AP of the enemy's strongest color. Level 4: Stuns a random enemy for 2 turns. Level 5: Deals 246 to all enemies, stuns a random enemy for 3 turns, and destroys 5 enemy AP.
    Max Level: 783 damage to enemy team, 3 turn stun, 5 enemy AP destroyed, 1 Countdown tile destroyed

    To Compare:
    ds108j wrote:
    [anchor=storm2]Storm (Classic)[/anchor]
      Wind Storm - Blue 11 AP
      Storm creates a whirling tempest, damaging the enemy team for 125 and stunning the target for 2 turns.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: 156 damage. Level 3: Stuns target for 3 turns. Level 4: 188 damage. Level 5: Stuns target for 4 turns.
      Max Level: 1670 damage

      star.pngstar.pngicon_storm.pngblueflag.png beats the pants off Otto. 5 covers v 5 covers Storm gets 1 more turn of stun, over double the damage, one less AP. You are asking me to believe 5 from the enemy strongest color AP is worth 2,661 damage? If that's true, BP's Rage of the Panther could do approx 2800 to all instead of approx 3700 to all and give away 5 AP. Same cost (12 greentile.png v 12 blacktile.png ) so now you want me to buy that 3 turns of stun, to a RANDOM enemy, is worth 6,000 damage approx? Just... no. Especially in green, because it has to stack up next to Call the Storm. This power is way under powered.
    • its not 8 tiles, its 8 pairs which means 16 tiles will be swapped but it really could be 9 pairs for that cost. also the wording says "destroying any swapped" which sounds like the blow up damage would take place after any matches made by the power giving the passive a chance to proc.

      the passive really is the best thing about him, a free attack tile is great if you pair him with someone like patch and can match one of the created enemy strike tiles you'll get 1166 damage at the end of the turn from the 2 attack tiles + patch strikes

      I wouldn't assume that. I would in fact assume the opposite, that swapped specials are destroyed to proc the blue damage before any matching is considered. Have to test to see.

      Either way, that his green is so bad to push 5/5/3 builds and his blue and black actively work against each other means this character will be assigned PvE duty and not much else.
    • Just to take a different approach for a second - I see mainly using him against goons, and against goons, that green power is likely to be very useful at that. I don't look at the damage his green does as its primary purpose, rather a nice bonus. It's main purpose is the cd tile destruction and the stun. While I think black at five is a must regardless, I think it makes more sense to max blue if you're using him in pvp (against certain characters), and his green makes more sense for pve (against goons). I think I may build him 3/5/5, even if it limits him a bit in pvp.
    • If damage ins't the point, 5/5/3 is still better because 3 green covers still destroys a CD while 5 blue gives the chance to destroy CDs with it's use.

      Instead of increasing the stun, or having stun at all, why not increase the CDs destroyed with its use instead? If at 5 covers it destroyed all CDs, or even just 4 CDs, it would be worth covering up to 5, instead of holding at 3 (although if we go a turn per cover, at 3 it's destroying 3 CDs, dunno that I would add 2 more to get to 4).
    • OnesOwnGrief
      OnesOwnGrief Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
      What I don't understand is their need to force you into 4 or 5 covers in skills in order for that character to even be viable in PvE against goons. It's mind boggling how that even makes sense why they are forcing your hand when it comes to PvE like this.
      icon_captainamerica.png 5 redflag.png 5 blueflag.png
      icon_falcon.png 4 blueflag.png
      icon_shehulk.png 5 blueflag.png
      icon_magneto.png 5 yellowflag.png
      icon_doctoroctopus.png 5 blueflag.png

      icon_doctoroctopus.png doesn't even have the damage to be anything other than support and he falls very far to the bottom of that list in that regard as well. Couple that with high cost (come on, 12 greentile.png for 1 countdown removal, random stun, and AP drain?), where does he logically fits on a roster? I'd rather use icon_beast.png over icon_doctoroctopus.png at this point and that's saying a lot.
    • theshadeofopal
      theshadeofopal Posts: 93 Match Maker
      Oh hey, his green does exactly as much damage as I thought it would haha. Pretty easy 5/5/3 I believe, as they are clearly his best abilities. I misread blue: it actually destroys the tile if the tile was SELECTED to be swapped, I thought it just did damage if the swap resulted in a match 3 that destroyed the tile. Green 3->5 seems marginal since its what, an extra 300 team damage, 2 AP destroyed, and 2 turns of stun? Compared to doubling blacks effectiveness or making blue work vs goons. There might be merit in 5/3/5 since not sure if having 2 134 attack tile is that much better than 1 134 attack tile, but green just has reprieve written all over it so it's probably 5/5/3.


      What, doesn't everyone spec she hulk 5/5/3?

      Every time I think healing skills are the worst pricedc than another ap drain takes the lead. Weird how **** protect tile abilities like coercive field seem "useful" by comparison.
    • Pylgrim
      Pylgrim Posts: 2,296 Chairperson of the Boards
      What I don't understand is their need to force you into 4 or 5 covers in skills in order for that character to even be viable in PvE against goons. It's mind boggling how that even makes sense why they are forcing your hand when it comes to PvE like this.
      icon_captainamerica.png 5 redflag.png 5 blueflag.png
      icon_falcon.png 4 blueflag.png
      icon_shehulk.png 5 blueflag.png
      icon_magneto.png 5 yellowflag.png
      icon_doctoroctopus.png 5 blueflag.png

      icon_doctoroctopus.png doesn't even have the damage to be anything other than support and he falls very far to the bottom of that list in that regard as well. Couple that with high cost (come on, 12 greentile.png for 1 countdown removal, random stun, and AP drain?), where does he logically fits on a roster? I'd rather use icon_beast.png over icon_doctoroctopus.png at this point and that's saying a lot.

      Otto's green may be as disappointing as everyone has pointed, but his other powers make him quite decent against goons and special-tile-spammers like Storm, Falcon and Sentry. Beast is never good, anywhere, ever.
    • Otto is not good vs Sentry. In the time you are collecting the 11 blue, he took the yellowtile.png and greentile.png he needs to murder you. And your blueflag.png eats a whole 4 of 17 specials on average, doing 2k damage to his 10k health, leaving him with enough specials to murder you. In the meantime, you created 4 attack tiles by matching a couple tho, yay you! Now he has maybe 8 ecountdown.png and maybe yellowflag.png , that's something like 5k team damage you get to eat. Hope your 147 attack tiles can keep up.

      If you don't take yellowtile.png and greentile.png you die to Sentry, and if you can't deal damage with yellowtile.png and greentile.png you die to Sentry redflag.png. Otto is a goon slayer, and saying "hey, he can skill Storm or Falcon" isn't going to improve his standing. You know who else kills Storm or Falcon? Damn near everyone.

      He might, emphasis MIGHT, be decent against Magneto (Classic) and X-Force. Partner him with Punisher, ignore the **** out of his green, watch your attack tiles do bonus strike tile damage, use Retribution to finish off targets, and you can use blueflag.png to deal with Magneto's shield tiles, or X-force's regen.
    • ballingbees
      ballingbees Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
      His powers appear to be specifically targetted against Human Torch in particular. Especially his green, to dispatch the one Torch CD tile and remove 5 red, and his blue and black to deal with Torch's black. Weird in that he's supposed to be nemesis of Spiderman instead of Torch.

      Then again its not easy to design a character to deal with Spiderman without being too niche, like web-tile specific attacks.

      Or make his black be a passive steal:
      Lvl1: Steal 1 random AP when enemy generates web tiles
      Lvl2: Steal 1 random AP when enemy generates web/attack tiles
      Lvl3: Steal 1 random AP when enemy generates web/attack/strike/protect tiles
      Lvl4: Steal 1 random AP when enemy generates special tiles
      Lvl5: Steal 1 random AP when enemy generates special tiles, 3 AP if it is a web tile.

      Now as a player I will want to play DocOct against Spiderman. Keep him behind and lure Spiderman to use stun on the frontman.
      And I will want to play Spiderman against DocOct, to stun him from using his Black.
      That's what arch enemies are about isn't it.
    • His powers appear to be specifically targetted against Human Torch in particular. Especially his green, to dispatch the one Torch CD tile and remove 5 red, and his blue and black to deal with Torch's black. Weird in that he's supposed to be nemesis of Spiderman instead of Torch.

      Then again its not easy to design a character to deal with Spiderman without being too niche, like web-tile specific attacks.
      I think Doc Ock will play nicely enough against Spider-Man. He utilizes blue, too, and Spidey depends on protect tiles to be useful. More than that, attack tiles work through stun which Spidey specializes in. Would be nice if webtiles were recognized as special tiles, though.
    • ballingbees
      ballingbees Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
      locked wrote:
      Would be nice if webtiles were recognized as special tiles, though.

      Would be even nicer if daredevil/demolition tiles are recognised too
    • NorthernPolarity
      NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
      Lerysh wrote:
      Ben Grimm wrote:
      IceIX Edit: As per always, pre-release numbers.
      Armed and Dangerous - Green 12 AP
      The fury of Doctor Octopus is unleashed as his metal arms strike, constrict and mangle all his opponents at once. Deals 82 damage to all enemies, then stuns a random enemy for 1 turn, reduces enemy AP in their strongest color by 1, and destroys a random enemy Countdown tile.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: Deals 164 damage to the enemy team. Level 3: Destroys 3 AP of the enemy's strongest color. Level 4: Stuns a random enemy for 2 turns. Level 5: Deals 246 to all enemies, stuns a random enemy for 3 turns, and destroys 5 enemy AP.
      Max Level: 783 damage to enemy team, 3 turn stun, 5 enemy AP destroyed, 1 Countdown tile destroyed

      To Compare:
      ds108j wrote:
      [anchor=storm2]Storm (Classic)[/anchor]
        Wind Storm - Blue 11 AP
        Storm creates a whirling tempest, damaging the enemy team for 125 and stunning the target for 2 turns.
        Level Upgrades
          Level 2: 156 damage. Level 3: Stuns target for 3 turns. Level 4: 188 damage. Level 5: Stuns target for 4 turns.
        Max Level: 1670 damage

        star.pngstar.pngicon_storm.pngblueflag.png beats the pants off Otto. 5 covers v 5 covers Storm gets 1 more turn of stun, over double the damage, one less AP. You are asking me to believe 5 from the enemy strongest color AP is worth 2,661 damage? If that's true, BP's Rage of the Panther could do approx 2800 to all instead of approx 3700 to all and give away 5 AP. Same cost (12 greentile.png v 12 blacktile.png ) so now you want me to buy that 3 turns of stun, to a RANDOM enemy, is worth 6,000 damage approx? Just... no. Especially in green, because it has to stack up next to Call the Storm. This power is way under powered.

        I don't think it's fair to compare every single ability to CtS or RotP because you can't have every single ability on every single character be equivalent to the best abilities in the game or else everything would just be too powerful. I would say that it vs Wind Storm is a perfectly reasonable comparison since that's the best ability on a 2*, and for this I can only say that it's clear that Demiurge just doesn't have a good handle on balancing defensive abilities.

        Here's another line of thinking that might better reveal Demiurge's intentions:

        Let's take molotov cocktail: a perfectly reasonable and average ability: 7ap for 783 damage to the team (similar to doc ocks), and that countdown tile that we'll ignore for now.

        Now we consider what Doc Ock's green has going for it: 3 turn stun, 5 AP drain, destroy 1 CD tile.

        How much AP is 5 AP drain worth? I'm guessing 2-3 AP.
        How much AP is a 3 turn stun on someone worth? MBW stuns 5 turns for 9AP, so say 3-4 AP?
        How much AP is a cd tile worth? Torchy's costs 5, goons cost usually 9AP, XF is 9, lets say it kills 5AP for the enemy conservatively, so that effect is probably worth at least 2-3AP.

        So now we have a skill thats getting us the base AoE thats worth lets say 5AP (which gives us a dmg/ap ratio of 400, which is typical of an average ability), reduces the enemy AP by 5 immediately, destroys the enemy countdown tile which is probably worth at least 5AP, and stuns the enemy for 3 turns which is worth 4-5AP, all in one neat package for 11AP!

        This seems pretty reasonable when you look at it that way, but in practice its actually pretty bad because the 5AP denial, stun, or cd tile could end up not doing anything, making those parts worth a lot less than in theory. But yeah, I wouldn't put it at that big of a developer blunder (unlike Beast blue, which is just straight up poor design / testing).
      • If I could get all that in stages, where the power costs 5 AP and kills a CD for every 2 green AP you have above 5 and drains all of your green, and if you kill 3 specials it also stuns a random enemy, BUT you could use it at 5 AP (and again at 5 AP) to do 700ish team damage, then it would resemble a working power. Right now it resembles a power that takes a back seat.

        To create a green team damage skill and then ask us to NOT compare it to CtS is just stupid. Of course we are going to compare it, they are both green team attack powers, and one happens to be on a mega tank. Same goes for a team damage attack power that stuns and comparing it to Storm. This power lives in 3* land. It should be clearly better than a 2* power of similar cost and intent. Wind Storm is the better of these 2 powers.

        If anything, to see reliable use a new green team damage power needs to be BETTER than CtS, not even just comparable (See World Rupture). What possible advantage is there to giving up 2200 damage to 1 target and 1400 damage to 2 targets to destroy a single CD? 3 turn stun? You know what's better than stun? Dead enemy characters.

        icon_beast.png and icon_doctoroctopus.png got **** when it comes to green, that's just how it is. Hell icon_doctoroctopus.png and icon_thor.png can even be buddies, what with Otto bringing the blueflag.png and blackflag.png to the party, but alas his green will only ever be used to eat X-Force healing tiles (maybe).

        In your hypothetical example, where you ignore part of MC's ability, if Punisher used that, and we use Otto's greenflag.png we get a 3 round stun and 5 AP drain for 5 green, assuming you paid 7 green for the damage. That's not the WORST, but when you compare it to a 1 round stun and 3 AP drain, is there really a need for 2 more covers? Really? I'd also argue, given MC factors the attack tiles into it's cost, it's more like 5 AP for 700ish team damage, and you are paying 7 AP for the stun and the drain, which is too much.
      • NorthernPolarity
        NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
        Lerysh wrote:
        If I could get all that in stages, where the power costs 5 AP and kills a CD for every 2 green AP you have above 5 and drains all of your green, and if you kill 3 specials it also stuns a random enemy, BUT you could use it at 5 AP (and again at 5 AP) to do 700ish team damage, then it would resemble a working power. Right now it resembles a power that takes a back seat.

        To create a green team damage skill and then ask us to NOT compare it to CtS is just stupid. Of course we are going to compare it, they are both green team attack powers, and one happens to be on a mega tank. Same goes for a team damage attack power that stuns and comparing it to Storm. This power lives in 3* land. It should be clearly better than a 2* power of similar cost and intent. Wind Storm is the better of these 2 powers.

        If anything, to see reliable use a new green team damage power needs to be BETTER than CtS, not even just comparable (See World Rupture). What possible advantage is there to giving up 2200 damage to 1 target and 1400 damage to 2 targets to destroy a single CD? 3 turn stun? You know what's better than stun? Dead enemy characters.

        icon_beast.png and icon_doctoroctopus.png got **** when it comes to green, that's just how it is. Hell icon_doctoroctopus.png and icon_thor.png can even be buddies, what with Otto bringing the blueflag.png and blackflag.png to the party, but alas his green will only ever be used to eat X-Force healing tiles (maybe).

        In your hypothetical example, where you ignore part of MC's ability, if Punisher used that, and we use Otto's greenflag.png we get a 3 round stun and 5 AP drain for 5 green, assuming you paid 7 green for the damage. That's not the WORST, but when you compare it to a 1 round stun and 3 AP drain, is there really a need for 2 more covers? Really? I'd also argue, given MC factors the attack tiles into it's cost, it's more like 5 AP for 700ish team damage, and you are paying 7 AP for the stun and the drain, which is too much.

        For every character, you have skills that were clearly meant to be the focus of the character (rage of the panther, call the storm, doc ock's blue/black?), and skills that were clearly meant to be filler (defense grid, bewilder, etc). You're comparing a focus spell (CtS) to a filler spell (Doc Ock's green). I'm not arguing with you about the power of the spell: it's clearly underpowered. I'm just saying that arguing that it's worse than CtS/RotP doesn't really help your argument since almost every other spell in the game is worse than those two. Go more with the arguments like wind storm instead, as that clearly shows why Demiurge is messing up the AP allocation since it's not even as good as a 2*s (albeit focus) ability.
      • I'll make it simple for everyone. This character is designed to be used against players in pve. His abilities will not be overpriced when goons are feeding him and his damage will not be low when he is scaled. Random stun? This is so you can't use strategy to determine who gets stunned. He's going to be one of the biggest pain ever players have to face in pve.

        You use Sentry or strike tile generators, Doc uses blue and black.

        Don't get me wrong, I like more variety in pve. But this character is only underpowered when players use him.
      • Phaserhawk
        Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
        I'm suprised by the number of people wanting to build him 5/5/3. Everyone realizes that he creates attack tiles eattack.png not strike tiles strike.png? there's a biiiiigg diference. Its free damage, and having 2 139 attack tiles are nice, which with a strike tile can eat away. Is the consensus that green is so bad that I'm going to go 5/5/3 or is that people actually think that black makes strike tiles.

        Here are 2 things about black.
        ==========================
        1.) To clarify it makes attack tiles not strike tiles
        2.) You get the attack tiles on a match, not with the number of special tiles you match. Example. I match 3 tiles that have 2 world rupture cd tiles in them. I don't get 2 x 2 for 4 attack tiles. I only get 2, it says whenever you make a match that includes special tiles. You won't get the attack tiles if you blow one up because of match 4 tile destruction line, it has to be in your match 4.