balancing the Big 5

simonsez

atomzed wrote:

simonsez wrote:

So, after all these nerfs, what are we supposed to do the next time we get a PvE node with something like a lv395 Hulk in it? I'm getting weary of people acting like this game is all about PvP, and that for some reason, PvE doesn't really count for anything.

Spidey protect tile will reduce the hulk match dmg to 1.

Use stun, which Lcap, Cpt Marvel, Classic storm and Modern BW can do.

You don't need cmag infinite turn to beat hulk.

Wasn't arguing for infinite turns, just saying you can't go and cripple every good characters if they're going to give us nodes like that.
And good luck doing 27k worth of damage with those characters before getting wiped out. You can't keep him stunned indefinitely, and while you're working on getting AP for the next one, or trying to get some protect tiles out, or trying to get some web tiles out to buff the protect tiles, you're going to get pummeled.

homeinvasion

simonsez wrote:

So, after all these nerfs, what are we supposed to do the next time we get a PvE node with something like a lv395 Hulk in it? I'm getting weary of people acting like this game is all about PvP, and that for some reason, PvE doesn't really count for anything.

I went with spidey, patch and sentry

wait for 17 green, stun the big green bastard then give him berserkers on top of wrold rupture = 42K damage to his big green tinykitty

Dartmaster01

Why does everyone always want to nerf a useful character? Just skip them or play better. Why does the game have to changed to fit your weeknesses? I hate playing cmags or sentry but if you nerf everyone good this game would suck. And I don't have any of these characters maxed so I'm not saying this to keep some slight advantage over others.

Unknown

I think that Sentry and Mags are OP. The fact that my lvl89, 7 cover Sentry is as powerful as my lvl 110, 10-13 cover 3 stars (Patch, Hulk, Hood, Torch) screams overpowered.

I think the fixes are pretty simple to bring them in line, without destroying them.

Sentry - World Ruptures all go off at once. No other change needed, still powerful, not overwhelming and lightning fast.

Mags - Blue shields are randomly placed. Eliminates cascades and infinite turns, still a powerful character.

Daken - The previously announced changes were reasonable. Just implement them for both 3 and 2 star.

Patch - requires such babysitting and handholding, no change needed.

Thor - The 2 star is so slow, he has to hit hard. Assuming 3 star is the same (only 4 covers), no change needed

atomzed

simonsez wrote:

atomzed wrote:

simonsez wrote:

So, after all these nerfs, what are we supposed to do the next time we get a PvE node with something like a lv395 Hulk in it? I'm getting weary of people acting like this game is all about PvP, and that for some reason, PvE doesn't really count for anything.

Spidey protect tile will reduce the hulk match dmg to 1.

Use stun, which Lcap, Cpt Marvel, Classic storm and Modern BW can do.

You don't need cmag infinite turn to beat hulk.

Wasn't arguing for infinite turns, just saying you can't go and cripple every good characters if they're going to give us nodes like that.
And good luck doing 27k worth of damage with those characters before getting wiped out. You can't keep him stunned indefinitely, and while you're working on getting AP for the next one, or trying to get some protect tiles out, or trying to get some web tiles out to buff the protect tiles, you're going to get pummeled.

Well with Lcap, you can stun him indefinitely. Because his stun will return blue AP. I never have any real problems with hulk, esp it's him alone.

I probably more worried about Jugg being fed green and red from goons.

And I see that you misunderstood those calling nerf to sentry and daken. They are REALLY overused in pvp. It affects the meta. Will nerfing them affect your ability in pve? Well even if it does, it affects everyone, and if everyone can clear the nodes, the scaling will go down.

Unknown

Dartmaster01 wrote:

Why does everyone always want to nerf a useful character? Just skip them or play better. Why does the game have to changed to fit your weeknesses? I hate playing cmags or sentry but if you nerf everyone good this game would suck. And I don't have any of these characters maxed so I'm not saying this to keep some slight advantage over others.

The "buff, don't nerf" crowd makes no sense. You know what would make this game suck? If every character was as strong as prenerf rags or spidey.

Even for the character that a surpising number of people ae saying is "fine" - lThor - I would rather have him on my team than any "not big 5" BUFFED 3*, aside from Panther. And you can buff them all you want, with power levels brought to "sentry and lThor" levels they're either going to remain obsolete or make all battles trivial

Nerfs are needed, that's all there is to it

darthmental

I think there should be an option in the poll......"Leave as is" That is where my vote would be.

Another option would be...."Release interesting characters with similar power levels"

I'm personally fine with the current meta. The meta will shift, it always does. Just ride the wave

Do you really want the devs to try and fix the powers of these characters? I know I don't. We might end up with a Sentry that hits like Mary Jane.

The devs have bigger fish to fry IMHO.

IamTheDanger

simonsez wrote:

atomzed wrote:

simonsez wrote:

So, after all these nerfs, what are we supposed to do the next time we get a PvE node with something like a lv395 Hulk in it? I'm getting weary of people acting like this game is all about PvP, and that for some reason, PvE doesn't really count for anything.

Spidey protect tile will reduce the hulk match dmg to 1.

Use stun, which Lcap, Cpt Marvel, Classic storm and Modern BW can do.

You don't need cmag infinite turn to beat hulk.

Wasn't arguing for infinite turns, just saying you can't go and cripple every good characters if they're going to give us nodes like that.
And good luck doing 27k worth of damage with those characters before getting wiped out. You can't keep him stunned indefinitely and while you're working on getting AP for the next one, or trying to get some protect tiles out, or trying to get some web tiles out to buff the protect tiles, you're going to get pummeled.

I'm going to give up one of my strategies here just to prove you're wrong.

Use Steve Rogers with MN Mags, then toss in OBW or Hood. Mags purple will feed Caps blue. Cap and Mag is one of the teams I used in the Combined Arms event. I was able to keep, not 1 but 2 opponents indefinitely stun locked. I tried to use the +6 Ap boosts and keep all 3 stunned, but that required too many Ap. One of them would always un-stun and get in a few hits. Not only do you keep your enemy stunned, but once you get going, and figure out how to rotate Caps blue, then you get an extra protect tile every turn.

During this time, you should have been able to get enough red for Steve Rogers' red, this will do enough damage to take on even a 395 Hulk with little or no trouble.

Unless you get a stale board witn no blue or purple, then you're just screwed.

Keep in mind, this strategy will not work for speed matches. You'll need a few turns to build up your blue and purple Ap. There is a bit more to it, but I can't give up ALL my secrets now can I ?

JJ

Dartmaster01

gamar wrote:

Dartmaster01 wrote:

Why does everyone always want to nerf a useful character? Just skip them or play better. Why does the game have to changed to fit your weeknesses? I hate playing cmags or sentry but if you nerf everyone good this game would suck. And I don't have any of these characters maxed so I'm not saying this to keep some slight advantage over others.

The "buff, don't nerf" crowd makes no sense. You know what would make this game suck? If every character was as strong as prenerf rags or spidey.

Even for the character that a surpising number of people ae saying is "fine" - lThor - I would rather have him on my team than any "not big 5" BUFFED 3*, aside from Panther. And you can buff them all you want, with power levels brought to "sentry and lThor" levels they're either going to remain obsolete or make all battles trivial

Nerfs are needed, that's all there is to it

I see what you are saying but I think balancing is needed not nerfs to overpowered characters. People have to be more valuable than others, this game is all about supply and demand. Demand for these so-called overpowered characters makes lots of money for their events and covers sales because supply is generally low.

I'll put it like this, how many people spent HP thrying to get Fury covers in the past week? No would play or spend a dime on this game if every character was some version of bagman.

Unknown

I think the top 5 are fine the way they are (cmags may be an exception though). Instead of needing everything, just get the covers u want... Buy them with hp or play harder to get them in pvp or pve. I'm a f2p, and I think I've managed to do fine collecting whatever covers I need or spend my hp in doing so. Part of the whole strategy of this game is trying to balance and maintain the best possible roster to compete effectively... So if that means getting sentry/hood or ldaken- then those should be ur primary goals. The only reason I say cmag may not even need a nerf is bc if u battle above 1000- u rarely see any cmag teams but a whole lot of sentry teams. The devs seem to be giving a lot of sentries out lately as progression rewards... So quit ur moaning and play harder to get them covers or spend ur hp to get them

Unknown

*nerfing everything

Unknown

Dartmaster01 wrote:

I see what you are saying but I think balancing is needed not nerfs to overpowered characters. People have to be more valuable than others, this game is all about supply and demand. Demand for these so-called overpowered characters makes lots of money for their events and covers sales because supply is generally low.

I'll put it like this, how many people spent HP thrying to get Fury covers in the past week? No would play or spend a dime on this game if every character was some version of bagman.

But I much rather play a game where every character was some version of HT or Psyduck than one where every character was some version of lThor or cmags

Kiamodo

Add an option that's says do nothing. Not my opinion but I'm sure there are people that agree.

Unknown

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

atomzed wrote:

simonsez wrote:

So, after all these nerfs, what are we supposed to do the next time we get a PvE node with something like a lv395 Hulk in it? I'm getting weary of people acting like this game is all about PvP, and that for some reason, PvE doesn't really count for anything.

Spidey protect tile will reduce the hulk match dmg to 1.

Use stun, which Lcap, Cpt Marvel, Classic storm and Modern BW can do.

You don't need cmag infinite turn to beat hulk.

Wasn't arguing for infinite turns, just saying you can't go and cripple every good characters if they're going to give us nodes like that.
And good luck doing 27k worth of damage with those characters before getting wiped out. You can't keep him stunned indefinitely and while you're working on getting AP for the next one, or trying to get some protect tiles out, or trying to get some web tiles out to buff the protect tiles, you're going to get pummeled.

I'm going to give up one of my strategies here just to prove you're wrong.

Use Steve Rogers with MN Mags, then toss in OBW or Hood. Mags purple will feed Caps blue. Cap and Mag is one of the teams I used in the Combined Arms event. I was able to keep, not 1 but 2 opponents indefinitely stun locked. I tried to use the +6 Ap boosts and keep all 3 stunned, but that required too many Ap. One of them would always un-stun and get in a few hits. Not only do you keep your enemy stunned, but once you get going, and figure out how to rotate Caps blue, then you get an extra protect tile every turn.

During this time, you should have been able to get enough red for Steve Rogers' red, this will do enough damage to take on even a 395 Hulk with little or no trouble.

Unless you get a stale board witn no blue or purple, then you're just screwed.

Keep in mind, this strategy will not work for speed matches. You'll need a few turns to build up your blue and purple Ap. There is a bit more to it, but I can't give up ALL my secrets now can I ?

JJ

I appreciate your insight. This used to be a lot more common on the forum. Advice and insight that were especially helpful to newer players.

Now, well, everyone can see loads of the garbage the forum is full with now. Instead of talking about how to max strategy in the current version of the game, a lot of talk is spent criticizing, wishing, and witch hunting.

Dartmaster01

gamar wrote:

Dartmaster01 wrote:

I see what you are saying but I think balancing is needed not nerfs to overpowered characters. People have to be more valuable than others, this game is all about supply and demand. Demand for these so-called overpowered characters makes lots of money for their events and covers sales because supply is generally low.

I'll put it like this, how many people spent HP thrying to get Fury covers in the past week? No would play or spend a dime on this game if every character was some version of bagman.

But I much rather play a game where every character was some version of HT or Psyduck than one where every character was some version of lThor or cmags

I'll concede it's just a difference of opinion at this point. I only have sentry usable out of this group(lvl 143) but I don't see anything broken with the system because I can't take advantage of the others. Just like any other game, progress to have the advantage. Get the best characters, level them, and and take the advantage! jmo though

Dayv

3* Thor needs skill damage decreased and both Thors should make fewer green tiles with the yellow skill. Nine tiles of one color created with a single 12AP skill is crazy, especially such a useful color as green. The only comparable tile generators are GSBW's purple, which creates six in specified locations (powerful), Magneto Now's blue which is strong but purple is less useful and he's only a two-star, and Doom's blue, which suffers from changing out blue tiles only so you need to wait for the right time to use it, and then it's generating black which is also second-tier compared to green. And none of those comparable skills are also doing massive damage at the same time.

Sentry's World Rupture tiles should all explode simultaneously, only triggering strike tiles once. If that's hard to code, make it destroy all friendly countdowns at once -- damage is increased, but those other countdown effects are lost.

Daken can probably be reworked with just number tweaks, I don't think he's in the same tier as these two. *Maybe* require a low minimum of purple AP just to make him start a bit slower. They have some vague plans in mid for Daken already, so this may be a different discussion in a couple months.

Patch is great on offense, but terrible on defense. Mostly you just need to watch his AP levels and keep a tank forward when he's ready to strike, preferably The Hulk because that TinyKitty is hilarious. And don't save him for last unless you've also been meticulously denying red the whole game. I don't think he needs work.

CMags nerf is in progress and sounds like a rework. I'd say to wait and see on him as well. I think they could quick-fix him by increasing red AP and base damage, randomly placing tiles for blue, and aligning his match damage to his skills.

Unknown

Hulk was level 395 because this game believes 3 level 130 guys is roughly as strong as 1 level 390 guy because the level add up to the same thing. That wasn't an issue with scaling. That's an issue with game design. Of course if that was true I'd like to do PvP with a single level 500 Daken. That's still less than the combined levels of most teams I see so that should be totally fair. For what it's worth I beat the 395 Hulk with Magneto + Daken + Falcon but Magneto was there to get rid of my own strike tiles and/or overwrite Anger because going into a huge cascade is problematic because you don't want to accidentally upgrade strike tiles too much and start triggering Angers and Magneto can fine tune that better than anyone.

For Magneto's blue the only thing that makes sense while keeping cost at 5 is if just changed two basic tiles to a protect tile. Tile overwrite abilities have a huge premium in PvE because of all the nasty stuff that you need to overwrite in PvE. Anything else would require a significant redesign of the ability or it cost, or both, which is why I didn't offer any solutions because I don't know what the intended function of the ability is.

For World Rupture whether the tiles all blow up at once or not does not impact how it interacts with strike tiles because you get the same effect when the detonate them all at once with Hood. The obvious change should be to make sure strike tiles are only counted once on World Rupture. That'd cap the World Rupture damage at something like 2800+strike tile to enemy team, which is still a lot but definitely not game ending. World Rupture may need to have all its tile explode at once because it's too strong of a cascade but I'll not worry about that until the strike tile interaction is fixed. Having all the tiles explode at once is pretty much always worse than one at a time, especially if strike tiles are weakened such that losing a strike tile from the ensuing cascade doesn't matter as much.

Unknown

DayvBang wrote:

3* Thor needs skill damage decreased and both Thors should make fewer green tiles with the yellow skill. Nine tiles of one color created with a single 12AP skill is crazy, especially such a useful color as green. The only comparable tile generators are GSBW's purple, which creates six in specified locations (powerful), Magneto Now's blue which is strong but purple is less useful and he's only a two-star, and Doom's blue, which suffers from changing out blue tiles only so you need to wait for the right time to use it, and then it's generating black which is also second-tier compared to green. And none of those comparable skills are also doing massive damage at the same time.

Thor's yellow is tricky I think. It should do less damage but I don't think it should add less green tiles because otherwise if all his damage is inline with what a tank character should have (low) then there wouldn't be much threat to him at all. Right now the problem is that he combos with himself with Thunder Strike into a game ending Call the Storm. That's too much versatility for a guy with the second most HP in the game. If you have to take GSBW and instead do Thunder Strike into Sniper Rifle, you're giving up a lot on your team composition for this kind of power and maybe it's fair. I suspect it's still overpowered but I'll have to see how the meta game shakes out once Thor can no longer do a game ending Thunder Strike combo by himself.

IamTheDanger

stephen43084 wrote:

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Wasn't arguing for infinite turns, just saying you can't go and cripple every good characters if they're going to give us nodes like that.
And good luck doing 27k worth of damage with those characters before getting wiped out. You can't keep him stunned indefinitely and while you're working on getting AP for the next one, or trying to get some protect tiles out, or trying to get some web tiles out to buff the protect tiles, you're going to get pummeled.

I'm going to give up one of my strategies here just to prove you're wrong.

Use Steve Rogers with MN Mags, then toss in OBW or Hood. Mags purple will feed Caps blue. Cap and Mag is one of the teams I used in the Combined Arms event. I was able to keep, not 1 but 2 opponents indefinitely stun locked. I tried to use the +6 Ap boosts and keep all 3 stunned, but that required too many Ap. One of them would always un-stun and get in a few hits. Not only do you keep your enemy stunned, but once you get going, and figure out how to rotate Caps blue, then you get an extra protect tile every turn.

During this time, you should have been able to get enough red for Steve Rogers' red, this will do enough damage to take on even a 395 Hulk with little or no trouble.

Unless you get a stale board witn no blue or purple, then you're just screwed.

Keep in mind, this strategy will not work for speed matches. You'll need a few turns to build up your blue and purple Ap. There is a bit more to it, but I can't give up ALL my secrets now can I ?

JJ

I appreciate your insight. This used to be a lot more common on the forum. Advice and insight that were especially helpful to newer players.

Now, well, everyone can see loads of the garbage the forum is full with now. Instead of talking about how to max strategy in the current version of the game, a lot of talk is spent criticizing, wishing, and witch hunting.

Could not agree more. People get so upset over things that don't even affect them half the time. Making a complaint is one thing if it's valid, but the negativity on here is a bit much at times. (yes, I know, complaining about complainers and all that)

When I play MPQ I treat it like chess. A good strategy can allow me to beat just about any team. Even max Sentry/Daken. Maybe I, or someone, should start a thread, maybe in the tips and tricks section, offering little strategies about the game. Nothing big or anything. Some of my little tricks I keep to myself. It is a competion after all.

Like using DareDevil and Bagman together. DD places a trap, then Bagman moves other tiles around it to make it into a match, or a match 4 if possible. Or use MN Mags to place 4 blue in line with the trap. The Ai takes the blue match 4 and sets off the trap. Or like using Dr. Doom and OBW together. With OBW's espionage she can fill Doom's black and blue in no time. Toss in a strike tile generater and the attack tiles do all the work.

FaerieMyst

I don't think anything needs to be done. Why wasn't that an option?