Question for the X-men about motivation.

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Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    RaphaelMajere wrote:
    if this is a way of life for anyone, then i feel ......... for you.

    As a lover of strategic games and ccgs/dcgs, with all due respect, you and I will clearly disagree on what challenging/fun 'strategy' is.

    But hey, don't get me wrong, I like MPQ. But MPQ is not a 'strategic' game for me. It's like more like stamps collecting for me. The alliance system is like a book club. After all, there is no team raids, etc.

    Hi Raphael,

    The way I see people talking too passionate about this game and the hours spent by many people just to fuss around what others are doing extends the meaning of the game. But I would say that this does not apply.

    I can agree with you that this is not an strategy game like Risk, but, on the other hand, if you do not want to spend money here you should be quite clever to circumvent the challenge and get good points in time. I would call that strategy, but maybe it's my own interpretation of that.

    And i also agree that for people that are comics fans it is a great thing to be able to collect and play with some of the characters you grew up with.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Im really surprised that so many people think that sentry is actually balanced. Heres my thinking behind this:
    Step 1: add sentry to your team
    Step 2: add daken to your team
    Step 3: match green 3 times
    Step 4: world rupture for 5k+ team damage at least

    If we as a community think that black panther is good because of 3.2k team damage for 12ap with a downside, how on earth are you guys not seeing that 9ap for 5k+ team damage is completely broken? The team damage taken from world rupture is miniscule when you are using daken to supply the tiles instead of using sacrifice.

    You know what would be an incredibly easy balence fix for sentry? Make world rupture cost 12ap. Such a powerful aoe attack should cost more than a measly 7ap, and itd be just as game ending on 12, while being more in line with other aoe attacks like rotp and call the storm.
  • FaerieMyst
    FaerieMyst Posts: 319 Mover and Shaker
    Except that World Rupture is so easy to circumvent. I can't do that with Call the Storm. With Call the Storm half the time, Thor attacks yellow and goes immediately into the green attack. World Rupture has a two tile countdown. A lot can happen in two turns. Maybe one time in twenty, World Rupture does serious damage. Most of the time it does little to none.

    I regularly attack XMen and their 166 Sentry's. It takes some planning but Sentry isn't hard to overcome.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Im really surprised that so many people think that sentry is actually balanced. Heres my thinking behind this:
    Step 1: add sentry to your team
    Step 2: add daken to your team
    Step 3: match green 3 times
    Step 4: world rupture for 5k+ team damage at least

    If we as a community think that black panther is good because of 3.2k team damage for 12ap with a downside, how on earth are you guys not seeing that 9ap for 5k+ team damage is completely broken? The team damage taken from world rupture is miniscule when you are using daken to supply the tiles instead of using sacrifice.

    You know what would be an incredibly easy balence fix for sentry? Make world rupture cost 12ap. Such a powerful aoe attack should cost more than a measly 7ap, and itd be just as game ending on 12, while being more in line with other aoe attacks like rotp and call the storm.

    I don't think I see that going too well for you vs hulk. Definitely not gonna get you by when doing efficient shield hops.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    FaerieMyst wrote:
    Except that World Rupture is so easy to circumvent. I can't do that with Call the Storm. With Call the Storm half the time, Thor attacks yellow and goes immediately into the green attack. World Rupture has a two tile countdown. A lot can happen in two turns. Maybe one time in twenty, World Rupture does serious damage. Most of the time it does little to none.

    I regularly attack XMen and their 166 Sentry's. It takes some planning but Sentry isn't hard to overcome.

    The argument of "the character isnt completely broken on defense so its fine" is pretty bad because y that logic cmags and prenerf spidey are perfectly balanced because theyre beatable on defense. Ive played sentry enough to know that you canplay in such a way to maximize world rupture damage extremely consistently.
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
    Some people spend waaay too much real money on this game. Something fishy about a lvl 150 deadpool 2 days after the first covers for him are available to be won. which is fine if you want to waste a pile of money to level up your guy without playing the game. Although it seems liek a waste of money and what's the point in playing. I've noticed for example guys using a maxed out charector in a pvp where the reward is a cover of that charecter that's already maxed out.

    I assume it's a similar "motivation" to why some players need to finish 400 pts ahead of 2nd place?
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Psykopathic wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Im really surprised that so many people think that sentry is actually balanced. Heres my thinking behind this:
    Step 1: add sentry to your team
    Step 2: add daken to your team
    Step 3: match green 3 times
    Step 4: world rupture for 5k+ team damage at least

    If we as a community think that black panther is good because of 3.2k team damage for 12ap with a downside, how on earth are you guys not seeing that 9ap for 5k+ team damage is completely broken? The team damage taken from world rupture is miniscule when you are using daken to supply the tiles instead of using sacrifice.

    You know what would be an incredibly easy balence fix for sentry? Make world rupture cost 12ap. Such a powerful aoe attack should cost more than a measly 7ap, and itd be just as game ending on 12, while being more in line with other aoe attacks like rotp and call the storm.

    I don't think I see that going too well for you vs hulk. Definitely not gonna get you by when doing efficient shield hops.

    I dont think the "this one character that was designed to counter aoe attacks and strike tiles beats sentry so its fine" argument works either when sentry destroys all of the other 20 odd 3* characters in the game in the game. Again, the numbers show that world rupture is twice as efficient as any other aoe attack in the game ap/damage wise when paired with daken, is that really okay with all of you to have a character at that level?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Psykopathic wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Im really surprised that so many people think that sentry is actually balanced. Heres my thinking behind this:
    Step 1: add sentry to your team
    Step 2: add daken to your team
    Step 3: match green 3 times
    Step 4: world rupture for 5k+ team damage at least

    If we as a community think that black panther is good because of 3.2k team damage for 12ap with a downside, how on earth are you guys not seeing that 9ap for 5k+ team damage is completely broken? The team damage taken from world rupture is miniscule when you are using daken to supply the tiles instead of using sacrifice.

    You know what would be an incredibly easy balence fix for sentry? Make world rupture cost 12ap. Such a powerful aoe attack should cost more than a measly 7ap, and itd be just as game ending on 12, while being more in line with other aoe attacks like rotp and call the storm.

    I don't think I see that going too well for you vs hulk. Definitely not gonna get you by when doing efficient shield hops.

    I dont think the "this one character that was designed to counter aoe attacks and strike tiles beats sentry so its fine" argument works either when sentry destroys all of the other 20 odd 3* characters in the game in the game. Again, the numbers show that world rupture is twice as efficient as any other aoe attack in the game ap/damage wise when paired with daken, is that really okay with all of you to have a character at that level?


    If I can't use the he sucks only against hulk argument how are you able to use the he's only op when paired with daken argument?
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
    Seems to me that any charecter that forces players to break the tiresome OBW/Thor model leads to an outcry to nerf. Man did i get sick of playing against that combo almost literally every single pvp match. Sentry is pretty relentless on deffense. Pernsoally I've been building mine up to save on shields when I'm lower points. I don't think he's really overpowered, and his power fits the actual charecter pretty well. Pair anyone who matches green with Daken and you get "overpowered" pretty quickly. Pair him up with patch and let the strike tiles fly.

    Raise up his AP needed for rupture, seems more like a reasonable adjustment than a nerf, but there's no need to nerf everyone who has a high damage move that burns you. Some guys are heavy heavy hitters, it's the nature of the game. Should they nerf BP's black strike as well becuase it hurts, or Thor's COTS?

    Seems to me that with pvp there's a dominant stradegy everyone follows to a tee for a while, and sometimes new charecters introduced switch the stradegy slightly. I find pvp very tedious and repetitive, but I'll make a point of fighting players who are using different charecters, becuase I get very tired of fighting the same 4 charecters over and over. Although I will skip a daken/sentry pairing every time. For me the only fun left is pve if it's a good one.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    World Rupture seems to be designed assuming strike tiles don't exist in this game, never mind that Sentry creates one of the most powerful strike tiles in the game by himself.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Let's think of other sentry counters while we're at it.
    Falcons pink negates a ton.
    C mags spams protect tiles pretty well and when sentry is on defense his blue covers that protect tile right up.
    Hulk anger or hulk green messes the while move up pretty drastically.
    Ragnarok can use 6 green to smash through a large portion of the move.
    Punisher or any other character that creates cascades.
    Hood really messes him up.
    Bwgs pink or red will knock thar tile right out.
    M mags 2* will destroy him.
    Obw will raise his timers immensely.
    Mohawk storm clutter board with hailstorm.

    The list goes on

    Everyone saying he is op acts like he's fool proof. With +6 all boosts yeah. 1 green. 1 yellow. Done for 85-90% of the time. Even then there's a lot of opportunities to loss that yellow tile.

    I stand by previous statements. In a non boosted game, sentry just is not that great. He's easy to bear on D. He doesn't have sustainable play.
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
    Psykopathic wrote:
    Let's think of other sentry counters while we're at it.
    M mags 2* will destroy him.
    .

    I never took a shining to MMAGs, so I'm not sure how useful he is to actively play. Countdown tiles are dicey. But as some one attacking, I'll always hit some one with MMAGS in the line up and leave him till last becuase he's literally no threat in any way, as long as you have a counter for the countdown he may put out in mind.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Psykopathic wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Psykopathic wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Im really surprised that so many people think that sentry is actually balanced. Heres my thinking behind this:
    Step 1: add sentry to your team
    Step 2: add daken to your team
    Step 3: match green 3 times
    Step 4: world rupture for 5k+ team damage at least

    If we as a community think that black panther is good because of 3.2k team damage for 12ap with a downside, how on earth are you guys not seeing that 9ap for 5k+ team damage is completely broken? The team damage taken from world rupture is miniscule when you are using daken to supply the tiles instead of using sacrifice.

    You know what would be an incredibly easy balence fix for sentry? Make world rupture cost 12ap. Such a powerful aoe attack should cost more than a measly 7ap, and itd be just as game ending on 12, while being more in line with other aoe attacks like rotp and call the storm.

    I don't think I see that going too well for you vs hulk. Definitely not gonna get you by when doing efficient shield hops.

    I dont think the "this one character that was designed to counter aoe attacks and strike tiles beats sentry so its fine" argument works either when sentry destroys all of the other 20 odd 3* characters in the game in the game. Again, the numbers show that world rupture is twice as efficient as any other aoe attack in the game ap/damage wise when paired with daken, is that really okay with all of you to have a character at that level?


    If I can't use the he sucks only against hulk argument how are you able to use the he's only op when paired with daken argument?

    Because balance should be based on the best possible team combinations that the player can choose? When you balance a character for this game, you dont go "okay, im going to pair sentry with two random characters and see how good he is on average", you go "okay, im going to pair sentry and form the best teams that can be made with him and see how those teams do against the more popular teams that people are playing right now". The hulk argument doesnt work because hulk is in a small subset of the popular teams that people play right now: the same logic is completely unapplicable to daken.

    Heres an easy example that illustrates this:
    If character x is paired with character y, then you automatically win the game.
    Otherwise, character x does nothing. Do you seriously believe that character x is balanced just because he does nothing in 99% of the cases? No, because the players are going to go pair character x with character y and completely wreck every other team.

    Now suppose that character z exists and if you play character x and y against z, you automatically lose the game. Is character x and y balanced just because of character z? No, because they still wreck every other character in the game.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Psykopathic wrote:
    Let's think of other sentry counters while we're at it.
    Falcons pink negates a ton.
    C mags spams protect tiles pretty well and when sentry is on defense his blue covers that protect tile right up.
    Hulk anger or hulk green messes the while move up pretty drastically.
    Ragnarok can use 6 green to smash through a large portion of the move.
    Punisher or any other character that creates cascades.
    Hood really messes him up.
    Bwgs pink or red will knock thar tile right out.
    M mags 2* will destroy him.
    Obw will raise his timers immensely.
    Mohawk storm clutter board with hailstorm.

    The list goes on

    Everyone saying he is op acts like he's fool proof. With +6 all boosts yeah. 1 green. 1 yellow. Done for 85-90% of the time. Even then there's a lot of opportunities to loss that yellow tile.

    I stand by previous statements. In a non boosted game, sentry just is not that great. He's easy to bear on D. He doesn't have sustainable play.

    I never use boosts. Sentry is, if anything, MORE sustainable than other characters because of how much damage he prevents by ending the battle fast, and on D he "merely" has a high chance of doing a lot of damage instead of a low chance of killing your team (like other top tier characters)

    But no, you're right, he's totally countered by the fact that you can mitigate World Rupture if you get 11 AP in a color before he gets 7 in green, or use **** Ragnarok
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Here's my take...

    Sentry has the health of a tanker. He strikes hard like a glass cannon.
    Self damage that minor compared to what your team would take if you fought the rest of the match doesn't balance him.


    Getting rid of boosts would add more balance to the char but he would still offer advantages over other characters because of cheap power costs and high hp.


    Basic game design....Big and slow or small and fast.


    PVP is broken for two reasons
    1)Boosts
    2)No paper rock scissors mechanics. You just pound your opponent with a big rock till they die.


    With out boosts we will just see Patchneto and LDaken\Sentry.

    Hulk wont be a threat...you would have a few more rounds to soften him up before worldrapture.
  • daveomite
    daveomite Posts: 1,331 Chairperson of the Boards
    Maybe we should split off all of the discussion about Sentry to another thread? It's great discussion, but is starting to become the focus of the thread, which is not what the OP/Sauce was asking, technically.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    yeah but I would rather argue about sentry then why the X-men suck.

    We already know the answer to that question.

    MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW

    a separate thread would be nice though icon_e_smile.gif
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Psykopathic wrote:
    Let's think of other sentry counters while we're at it.
    Falcons pink negates a ton.
    C mags spams protect tiles pretty well and when sentry is on defense his blue covers that protect tile right up.
    Hulk anger or hulk green messes the while move up pretty drastically.
    Ragnarok can use 6 green to smash through a large portion of the move.
    Punisher or any other character that creates cascades.
    Hood really messes him up.
    Bwgs pink or red will knock thar tile right out.
    M mags 2* will destroy him.
    Obw will raise his timers immensely.
    Mohawk storm clutter board with hailstorm.

    The list goes on

    Everyone saying he is op acts like he's fool proof. With +6 all boosts yeah. 1 green. 1 yellow. Done for 85-90% of the time. Even then there's a lot of opportunities to loss that yellow tile.

    I stand by previous statements. In a non boosted game, sentry just is not that great. He's easy to bear on D. He doesn't have sustainable play.

    Im trying really hard to figure out why you are thinking this way, and i think its because youve been playing the +6 ap sentry shield hopping game so much that your perception of sentry is now "sacrifice, world rupture, kill everything in a minute while sentry takes a ton of damage and shield". Ive been playing daken sentry long enough to know that just world rupture off of strike tiles + daken regen is sustainable from at least 700->1100 off of 5 health packs, which is honestly all anyone needs in a single push.

    There are just two things that i straight up dont get from your argument:
    1. Why do you think that being beatable on defense means that the character is balanced? The discussion is about whether or not sentry is balanced on offense. If youre one of those people who thinks that 2ap blue spidey was balanced and healthy for the game because he was beatable on defense, then say so so i know not to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

    2. Even in a boostless world, how is 3 green matches for 5k team damage not going to be the best thing that you can do? What team does that much damage with the same amount of ap on offense? Ive been pushing the math behind it because there just straight up doesnt exist a team composition besides op cmags that is even half as ap efficient as daken/sentry: tell me about these teams that you think are going to dominate the meta in a boostless,cmagsless world.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Psykopathic wrote:
    Let's think of other sentry counters while we're at it.
    Falcons pink negates a ton.
    C mags spams protect tiles pretty well and when sentry is on defense his blue covers that protect tile right up.
    Hulk anger or hulk green messes the while move up pretty drastically.
    Ragnarok can use 6 green to smash through a large portion of the move.
    Punisher or any other character that creates cascades.
    Hood really messes him up.
    Bwgs pink or red will knock thar tile right out.
    M mags 2* will destroy him.
    Obw will raise his timers immensely.
    Mohawk storm clutter board with hailstorm.

    The list goes on

    Everyone saying he is op acts like he's fool proof. With +6 all boosts yeah. 1 green. 1 yellow. Done for 85-90% of the time. Even then there's a lot of opportunities to loss that yellow tile.

    I stand by previous statements. In a non boosted game, sentry just is not that great. He's easy to bear on D. He doesn't have sustainable play.

    Im trying really hard to figure out why you are thinking this way, and i think its because youve been playing the +6 ap sentry shield hopping game so much that your perception of sentry is now "sacrifice, world rupture, kill everything in a minute while sentry takes a ton of damage and shield". Ive been playing daken sentry long enough to know that just world rupture off of strike tiles + daken regen is sustainable from at least 700->1100 off of 5 health packs, which is honestly all anyone needs in a single push.

    There are just two things that i straight up dont get from your argument:
    1. Why do you think that being beatable on defense means that the character is balanced? The discussion is about whether or not sentry is balanced on offense. If youre one of those people who thinks that 2ap blue spidey was balanced and healthy for the game because he was beatable on defense, then say so so i know not to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

    2. Even in a boostless world, how is 3 green matches for 5k team damage not going to be the best thing that you can do? What team does that much damage with the same amount of ap on offense? Ive been pushing the math behind it because there just straight up doesnt exist a team composition besides op cmags that is even half as ap efficient as daken/sentry: tell me about these teams that you think are going to dominate the meta in a boostless,cmagsless world.


    1. Being beatable on defense isn't the entire argument. It's only 1 piece of multiple pieces of the argument.

    2. Once again, that damage is ONLY when paired with daken. That seems to be 90% of your argument. You said yourself that you can't judge a character on how they pair with or against 1 character. Pair sentry with some1 besides daken you have to use sacrifice. You use sacrifice you take substantial damage at a risk of losing the tile before you can take a 2nd turn with it.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Here's a solution for you NP. Since apparently sentry is only over powered when boosted OR paired with Daken, I think we can find somewhat of a common ground here, right?

    Instead of nerfing Sentry, let's make Daken strike tiles work off of black. Black users needs the tiles more than green users anyways, it creates a new kind of diversity by hindering frequently used teams such as daken thor or daken sentry etc etc, helps teams like daken doom/bp/ whoever else. In the meantime it breaks up the sentry daken combo.

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