Finally, destruction of bad metagame!

Dauthi

Spoit wrote:

I'd argue that, even with the lack of healing, the person who has 3 141s and 3 85s is probably going to do a hell of a lot better than the person who has all the 2*s at 85. Even ignoring how the 3*s (probably) have more bang for their buck, and are able to do more with the medpacks than 85s, they'll be able to end on a solid (at least comparatively) defensive team. Like someone said earlier, there's really only about 3 viable pairs of 2*s: mag/cstorm and then mixing and matching ares/thor with obw/wolvie/(and maybe daken), so at most they'd really only have one extra 'team'

True, I will concede it may be better for PVP in many cases because featured characters are unobtained 3* characters leaving a hole in your team. However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE, and it always has random 2*s that are buffed promoting this diversity. Also, while OBW cannot heal, she can prevent damage to previously injured characters prolonging any given team. Even if there is only 2 2* teams or so, it will mostly be about swapping out damaged characters for undamaged while waiting on health packs and newly increased health regeneration.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE.

This part has me worried. It's feeling more and more like you have to follow a semi-strict schedule for PvEs if you want to have a shot at 1 or 2 3* covers, depending on what sort of bracket you end up in. And if you're only able to average getting... let's say 2 total covers of the "Featured" 3* character from a PVE event, 1 from Prizes and 1 from Progress Rewards, per 5-9 day period, how long does it take before you have enough covers of any one 3* to be able to level it up to a competitive level?

HairyDave

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE

You mean that gloriously tinykittied up grindfest is the only way 2*s should be getting further ahead now? No thanks.

Dauthi

RichHurtz wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE.

This part has me worried. It's feeling more and more like you have to follow a semi-strict schedule for PvEs if you want to have a shot at 1 or 2 3* covers, depending on what sort of bracket you end up in. And if you're only able to average getting... let's say 2 total covers of the "Featured" 3* character from a PVE event, 1 from Prizes and 1 from Progress Rewards, per 5-9 day period, how long does it take before you have enough covers of any one 3* to be able to level it up to a competitive level?

Realize that competitive 3* is end game. Getting to end game should take awhile. Enjoy 2* tier characters while they last.

HairyDave wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE

You mean that gloriously tinykittied up grindfest is the only way 2*s should be getting further ahead now? No thanks.

PVE is like quest grinding in an MMORPG. This response is like someone saying "Quests? No thanks, too grindy. I hope to level up through pure PVPing because its way more fun!". True, but good luck with that.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

RichHurtz wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE.

This part has me worried. It's feeling more and more like you have to follow a semi-strict schedule for PvEs if you want to have a shot at 1 or 2 3* covers, depending on what sort of bracket you end up in. And if you're only able to average getting... let's say 2 total covers of the "Featured" 3* character from a PVE event, 1 from Prizes and 1 from Progress Rewards, per 5-9 day period, how long does it take before you have enough covers of any one 3* to be able to level it up to a competitive level?

Realize that competitive 3* is end game. Getting to end game should take awhile. Enjoy 2* tier characters while they last.

I've enjoyed 2* characters plenty. I've got every 2* character except Bagman (And will continue to happily sell Bagman covers) and the only 2* I still need any covers for is Hawkeye.

Dauthi

RichHurtz wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

RichHurtz wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE.

This part has me worried. It's feeling more and more like you have to follow a semi-strict schedule for PvEs if you want to have a shot at 1 or 2 3* covers, depending on what sort of bracket you end up in. And if you're only able to average getting... let's say 2 total covers of the "Featured" 3* character from a PVE event, 1 from Prizes and 1 from Progress Rewards, per 5-9 day period, how long does it take before you have enough covers of any one 3* to be able to level it up to a competitive level?

Realize that competitive 3* is end game. Getting to end game should take awhile. Enjoy 2* tier characters while they last.

I've enjoyed 2* characters plenty. I've got every 2* character except Bagman (And will continue to happily sell Bagman covers) and the only 2* I still need any covers for is Hawkeye.

Other than lazy characters, this is the only time you will get to use them. I suppose there is an occasional buffed PVE event though. I never got to use Ares or OBW, they were after my time. I'm a bit envious of those of you that got to use them.

A slightly off topic thought, if they plan to promote diversity they should add a few more 2*s. With the current 2* drop rates it shouldn't hurt too much. At the very least they should make Moonstone and Bagman viable characters instead of a sigh of disgust when obtained.

Unknown

I do hope this change to healing does lead to more diversity in the game, but I've got my initial doubts about it. And it doesn't help that it was pretty much suddenly implemented during an ongoing event.

And yeah, I think something that would help would be introducing more 2* characters. Instead of just constantly bringing in more 3* characters to make the transition even more difficult.

mouser

Dauthi wrote:

mouser wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

mouser wrote:

Meh, out with the old meta-game, in with the new meta-game.

There are a lot of things to dislike with this change, but one important issue that bears special consideration: if 2* rosters are crippled in their ability to heal, then they're reduced in the # of matches they can play, which means the amount of ISO they can gain while trying to break into 3* territory is being reduced. It also means the amount of time they can play the game is reduced.

I have a high end 3* roster. From a meta-game standpoint this change will benefit me more then it hurts. I still think it's completely wrong. I don't believe it's healthy for MPQ overall to make changes reducing the ability of 2* players to play more frequently to improve their rosters.

But 3* rosters are equally reduced in how much ISO they can earn as well. Everyone can no longer heal across the board.

I know you're taking a contradicting position to every response in this thread, but it's absurd to believe that 3* rosters are equally impacted in their ability to collect ISO without healing.

2* rosters or shallow 3* rosters can now play less matches then they could yesterday. Less matches = less ISO. Whereas players with deeper rosters and regenerating 3*'s can continue to play at a similar pace. It's rather simple when you consider how frequently these two groups of players can now actually...well...play.

Hmm, I realize I may not be very clear in what I am trying to say. Ill go in depth:

There are 2 different players and only one gets strongly affected by this change. That is the players that rushed 3 85s and healed them over and over while using spare iso to level a few growing 3*. They then rushed 3 3* characters to 141, this being the most efficient and effective way to get end game rewards, but forgoing diversity in playing different characters. Their roster is shallow, like you said.

I think this is where our disconnect is. The two different players you describe are at best 10% of the overall player base, and probably less. What does this change do to the other 90%+ of players that are trying to play the most with their 2*'s or worse to accumulate enough 3* covers that they're actually usable?

Dauthi wrote:

Next we have players who saved ISO to level featured characters, effectively leveling all their characters. They are the 2*s who have full 85 rosters, so by the time they transition they are definitely not shallow. They transitioned to 3* by slowly leveling all their 3*s in the same manner as their 2*s, by leveling whatever is featured. They probably have been playing for a lot longer than those who rushed since they have had time to pump ISO into all their 85s and beyond. These people have an advantage now. They are, of course, not on the level of the top 1% with full 3* 141 rosters, but this group is very small.

Developers have been trying to push diverse rosters in many ways, most specifically with the limited rosters in Heroics. This also includes the MMR hell where those who rushed to 141 are now confronted with the end game they wanted so badly, fighting other 141's whether they have a full roster or not. Many players got the hint and took it slow, enjoyed the diverse gameplay of many characters, and are now being rewarded for taking the scenic route.

It isn't 2* vs 3*, it is deep roster vs shallow roster.

Does this make more sense?

My issue is that it ignores the situation that the majority of people playing this game are currently in. This change as is will likely make it even harder for newer players to join that top 5-10% where they can debate what constitutes a well rounded 3* roster.

Dauthi

mouser wrote:

I think this is where our disconnect is. The two different players you describe are at best 10% of the overall player base, and probably less. What does this change do to the other 90%+ of players that are trying to play the most with their 2*'s or worse to accumulate enough 3* covers that they're actually usable?

How are these 2 players only 10% of the population? There are 2 strategies, level the featured heroes or level a main team. What strategy is this other 90% using?

My issue is that it ignores the situation that the majority of people playing this game are currently in. This change as is will likely make it even harder for newer players to join that top 5-10% where they can debate what constitutes a well rounded 3* roster.

What situation are they in?

The top 5 - 10% is a very dedicated group that should take a lot of time to get in, that is why it is such a low percentile. In what ways will it make it harder to achieve something that should take (6 months for hardcore players? a year for casual?). How long do you think it should be before people are done with their 3* roster? What is left afterwards?

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

I really don't understand the complaining. This is a great move by the developer, and hopefully they will continue. Going to prologue and healing your characters not only did not make any sense, it was not fun. It doesn't make any sense why we would have to do something not fun and unrelated to actual gameplay to compete with other players. Forcing players to play constantly due to prologue healing also increases burnout for many. It makes much more sense to increase health regeneration and allow people to spread their gameplay through out the day while still being able to compete, in fact it makes even mores sense with the recent refresh rates to PVE. Since it affects all players it means that casual players will have a slightly better chance at competing and all players will have to play less to keep up with those who used to play all due thanks to a terrible metagame.

The only downside I can see is that it made Spidey that much more useless. I am now crossing my fingers for them to do something about tanking, though it is understandable it is a much larger and complex system change to deal with. I expect there will be just as much discontent when tanking is fixed and the benefits taken away from the privileged who have always used it to fight characters 1/3 their level.

Why don't you let each one of us decide what is fun instead of saying healing is not fun? Having this out of the way, I have to admit I didn't enjoy prologue healing because it was boring. However it was the only way I could use my characters for several matches in a row, so it was something that was forced on me. And before you say that playing 3-4 hours without a break is also not fun, let me ask you. Did you even consider the possibility that some of us play this way because we are having fun? It may be convenient for you, but it's not for most of us here in the forum, so please stop assuming we have the same idea about what is fun and what isn't.

The terrible ending times affect everyone in Europe so if the wanted to offer a fair chance to the entire player base they should start making improvement there and not start messing with the only way we had left to enjoy long gaming sessions. You say that a casual player should have the same experience with a hardcore player, except this is not happening in any F2P game. It's always money vs time. This is why the game is no longer F2P. Instead you have to pay just to be able to compete. If you want to play 1 hour each day in 3 time intervals you can't expect to get the same rewards with someone who spends 3 times that time. He is investing his free time and that is probably worth more than $10 a casual player would need to spend every month to keep up.

And then you continue with wishes that tanking will be next in line to change. Have you even been stuck in MMR hell or maybe facing in pve 200+ enemies who have 4-6 cost abilities with 2-3 turn CD and deal 3-5k damage? Are you a real player or a disguised dev? Have you actually played the game? I really can't tell. Before they even attempt to touch tanking, they should fix MMR and scaling. If not, it will make the game unplayable.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

However the real bank for transitioning 2* to 3* teams is PVE, and it always has random 2*s that are buffed promoting this diversity.

You sound so clueless of what it is actually like for 2* players throughout this entire thread. It is clear that you feel entitled to everything and anyone who started playing the game after you should be content with the scraps. 1 3* cover for top 100 should be good enough for you peasants! I get 3 or 4 covers but I can only use one of them since all my champs are nearly maxed, so we are even!!! Ridiculous.

The line I quoted above though. Wow. PVE is "bank" for 2* players making the 3* transition? Really? So that 1-3 covers or whatever once every 9 days, assuming you play like crazy the entire time, that's how you make the transition now? Oh wait! Half the time that's a new champ that you have zero covers for so you're actually only getting covers for your champs once every TWO weeks. BANK!!!!!!!

Unknown

I think is too soon to judge, if we are all affected by the change maybe it changes the way we all play and balances thing

The real problem is for the ones stuck in transitions that will have all harder but again, if we are affected by it then maybe top positions will swift in score terms

Change means that you have to adapt not that you have to fight harder to keep it like it was

The only thing i truly dislike is these quick changes, without telling anybody, Spidey was built in a way before the nerf, then maybe you go and change it and hate blue skill, while a week later blue might be the best to avoid constant damage and heal is ****
It's annoying to change all your gaming everytime the devs have a plan

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

hibikir wrote:

While you are transitioning to 3*, or have a very small 3* team, PVE teams vs fully leveled teams are pretty common. It is a well known situation, where the actual number of 3* covers you can reliably get actually decreases. I used to top 10 a whole lot in season 1: I got enough high level teams that know I am at the bottom of the big kid pool, so it takes a whole lot of prologue healing to top 100.

The people at the top have little problem with this. They have full sentries, dakens and such, which will make climbing very difficult for those of us with inferior rosters: We were already fighting 2v3 more often than not, and now we are fighting 2v3, and fighting slowly.

So it's not that the old metagame was any good, but that the current metagame puts anyone that doesn't have a large usable team or true healers at a disadvantage. a 3* transition is the moment where you have the LEAST playable characters (as your level 85s get eaten in seconds by the level 141 opponents), and little chance of having true healers.

Frankly, the system would be far better without that true healing concept. Because the changes made Daken and Patch, two top 10 heroes in their own right, far better than they were, since half the field got nerfed.

We'd not have a problem if there wasn't such a tiny MMR window between people with a dozen maxed 3*s and people with 1 or 2, but there is. And as long as it's there, problems will happen. The change just made them bigger.

This is a common misconception I see is trending. This is a problem with MMR/Tanking and should be fixed. Healing was like a terrible bandaid to fix this for some players. Hopefully this is the first step before it is sorted out.

Tearing off band-aids before wounds have actually been healed? Questionable decision-making... Just ask Spidey.

rkd80

One change that can come out of this, is the permanent health pack expansion option.

Pay 1000hp for example and triple your health packs permanently. Then more HP to add more health pack slots.

Right now 5 Hps is laughable, it is almost insulting considering we are running teams of 3. At least with OBW we could somehow mitigate that, but now all 3 require healing if we are facing AOE characters. Starting number should be 6. Then triple to 18. Overnight they all get recharged. Would lower the recharge per health pack to 30 min down from 35.

Unknown

This must be a troll thread. Prologue healing still exists but only people with advanced rosters can use this now (hello Patch, Daken). They only did direct nerf to OBW/Spidey healing so it only affects people who are using OBW (Spidey nerfed earlier so was pretty bad anyway). And who is using OBW? People doing transition to 3*. And now people who still can heal in prologue, who still can do longer climbing with their Patch/Magneto want to say others its a good change.

Are you **** kidding me?

Dauthi

Narkon wrote:

Why don't you let each one of us decide what is fun instead of saying healing is not fun? Having this out of the way, I have to admit I didn't enjoy prologue healing because it was boring.

What are you trying to argue? We both obviously agree prologue healing was not fun nor part of the game. It allowed you to play the game longer which was fun. That was my point.

You say that a casual player should have the same experience with a hardcore player, except this is not happening in any F2P game. It's always money vs time. This is why the game is no longer F2P. Instead you have to pay just to be able to compete. If you want to play 1 hour each day in 3 time intervals you can't expect to get the same rewards with someone who spends 3 times that time. He is investing his free time and that is probably worth more than $10 a casual player would need to spend every month to keep up.

No, I have never said that. However healing was completely throwing the casual player under the bus. By owning 2 specific characters players gained a vast advantage over all other players and esepcially skewed PVE, and partially pvp (as noted by Phantron). In fact it forced all competitive players to conform to prologue healing that is not fun or they could not be competitive in PVP (anyone who outgrew OBW anyways).

That aside, If single characters are so game changing shouldn't they be nerfed like Rags and Spidey?

And then you continue with wishes that tanking will be next in line to change. Have you even been stuck in MMR hell or maybe facing in pve 200+ enemies who have 4-6 cost abilities with 2-3 turn CD and deal 3-5k damage? Are you a real player or a disguised dev? Have you actually played the game? I really can't tell. Before they even attempt to touch tanking, they should fix MMR and scaling. If not, it will make the game unplayable.

I explicitly stated they need to fix MMR scaling to others. Tanking/MMR are one in the same since one is a solution to that specific problem. Tanking should be fixed by making it so that the player does not have to do it to begin with.

No I am not a developer. Yes I have played the game, shouldn't that be a given? You should be more careful about setting up strawmen. If you don't understand what that means, it is that your entire argument is based on what you think I think, not what I have stated or actually think.

AgCenturion397 wrote:

Tearing off band-aids before wounds have actually been healed? Questionable decision-making... Just ask Spidey.

True, but there is a much better bandaid in the form of tanking. It's easier and it doesn't disrupt PVE.

Malcoran wrote:

This must be a troll thread. Prologue healing still exists but only people with advanced rosters can use this now (hello Patch, Daken).

Since when is a 2* 10 cover character advanced? He is perfectly viable and he can heal. Wolverine can do some healing himself. Use them if you believe true healing is going to be so OP.

They only did direct nerf to OBW/Spidey healing so it only affects people who are using OBW (Spidey nerfed earlier so was pretty bad anyway). And who is using OBW? People doing transition to 3*. And now people who still can heal in prologue, who still can do longer climbing with their Patch/Magneto want to say others its a good change.

Are you tinykitty kidding me?

OBW could be used in actual battles to heal, while Spidey was forced into pitiful prologue healing. I guess that didnt' matter since you could still heal with OBW.

HairyDave

Dauthi wrote:

No, I have never said that. However healing was completely throwing the casual player under the bus. In fact it forced all competitive player to conform to prologue healing that is not fun or they cannot be competitive.

Way to generalise champ!

Prologue healing was in no way required to be competitive. Simply healing as much as you could at the end of a match could see you though dozens of games if you so wished.

Dauthi

HairyDave wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

No, I have never said that. However healing was completely throwing the casual player under the bus. In fact it forced all competitive player to conform to prologue healing that is not fun or they cannot be competitive.

Way to generalise champ!

Prologue healing was in no way required to be competitive. Simply healing as much as you could at the end of a match could see you though dozens of games if you so wished.

Thanks for the clarity check. Fixed.

Note that doing this with Spidey was not viable as it put a giant target on your head since, well, you were using Spidey.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

I really don't understand the complaining. This is a great move by the developer, and hopefully they will continue. Going to prologue and healing your characters not only did not make any sense, it was not fun. It doesn't make any sense why we would have to do something not fun and unrelated to actual gameplay to compete with other players. Forcing players to play constantly due to prologue healing also increases burnout for many. It makes much more sense to increase health regeneration and allow people to spread their gameplay through out the day while still being able to compete, in fact it makes even mores sense with the recent refresh rates to PVE. Since it affects all players it means that casual players will have a slightly better chance at competing and all players will have to play less to keep up with those who used to play all due thanks to a terrible metagame.

The only downside I can see is that it made Spidey that much more useless. I am now crossing my fingers for them to do something about tanking, though it is understandable it is a much larger and complex system change to deal with. I expect there will be just as much discontent when tanking is fixed and the benefits taken away from the privileged who have always used it to fight characters 1/3 their level.

In the next patch they will implement that if your team got hit while you were offline, they will have damage on them, when you log in. I guess you will be happy for that too, right?

The fact is, now the developers in their holy quest for money made the game unplayable for a lot of people. Because now even after 2 matches you are out of Medkits and most people won't buy them. They will stop playing.

Before I could play when I wanted, as much as I wanted. Now the developers dictate how much I can play.

I just go and play other games (like the truly F2P Marvel Heroes) and convince everyone I can to leave this greedy bunch of devs rot in the pit they dug for themselves.

Phillipes

Dauthi wrote:

I really don't understand the complaining. This is a great move by the developer, and hopefully they will continue. Going to prologue and healing your characters not only did not make any sense, it was not fun. It doesn't make any sense why we would have to do something not fun and unrelated to actual gameplay to compete with other players. Forcing players to play constantly due to prologue healing also increases burnout for many. It makes much more sense to increase health regeneration and allow people to spread their gameplay through out the day while still being able to compete, in fact it makes even mores sense with the recent refresh rates to PVE. Since it affects all players it means that casual players will have a slightly better chance at competing and all players will have to play less to keep up with those who used to play all due thanks to a terrible metagame.

The only downside I can see is that it made Spidey that much more useless. I am now crossing my fingers for them to do something about tanking, though it is understandable it is a much larger and complex system change to deal with. I expect there will be just as much discontent when tanking is fixed and the benefits taken away from the privileged who have always used it to fight characters 1/3 their level.

Are we playing same game?? What you wrote is wrong from beginnig to end. Casual players dont have any chance now to score properly. 2*/3* transition is gone now ! It is not posible to win 3* cover any more ! And you think that all play this game from cell phone? I´m not ! I play it via Steam, so I can´t play when I´m in work ! I was quite competitive before change, but I cant contribute to alliance score any more.

You are right in one thing: prologue healing was not fun, it was necessity. Without healing, devs need to complelety rework game mechanics like scaling, MMR, ruberbanding.. I think they need to make practicly new game.