Finally, destruction of bad metagame!

Unknown

RichHurtz wrote:

Honestly, this is just making it seem like "What's the point?" I've been struggling to make the transition from 2* to 3*, and have actually had luck lately since I would want until late in the events and start playing, usually only seeing other 2* 85 teams the whole time while being able to have a chance at getting those covers due to joining a later bracket. And if someone that was a 3* 141 team did attack me and take some of my points, I would hope it'd get to the point that they'd move well beyond me and the few points they'd get from beating me again wouldn't be worth it. Now without a way to reliably heal my team, it seems like that won't work and I've just lost one way to actually get these covers. And if I have to, let's say, keep playing throughout all of the PvP event, I'll end up having to go against those big teams and get hit as easy points. It's been a bad day for me outside of this game, and maybe it's just put me in a doom and gloom mood, but I guess I'm struggling to see the positive of a change like this as someone trying to make that transition.

If you have a strong team, but you do not shield aggressively, here's what usually happens. You make your climb, and then 4 teams just as strong as you hit you for 120 points. To make up for those points, you queue up 8 cupcake 2*s to try to salvage the 120 points you lost. Of course by the time you got them back you probably lost another 120 points, and so on. Note that the strong team guy is never going to get worn down by steamrolling these weak teams, so he only stops playing if he either gets too tired of riding the point rollercoaster, or if the guys attacking him stop harassing him. But, as long as 2*s are able to come up with a decent score, there's no reason for him to stop looking for them. If a 2* can hit 800, I estimate a top team can easily farm that team to 1100 (it'd still be awfully risky for the 2* team to counterattack a 1100 top team even with a 300 point difference). And why should he look for other opponent compared to a 2* that he can roll over and generally avoid retaliation? And remember this guy is going to be hit by other 3*s at the same time so he constantly needs to replenish his lost points.

Now I'm not saying this kind of gameplay is healthy but as long as everyone loses points very quickly without shields, the guys with the strong team is always going to look for the 2*s to try to make up their losses. They don't 'move on' unless they decide to put a shield, because you can easily hit 300+the highest 2* and that'd be far safer than trying to actually fight someone just as strong as you even if they're worth significantly more points.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

RichHurtz wrote:

And if someone that was a 3* 141 team did attack me and take some of my points, I would hope it'd get to the point that they'd move well beyond me and the few points they'd get from beating me again wouldn't be worth it.

There is always another 141 looking for easy prey (you). Sure one passes you, but many more are lining up at your door.

Now without a way to reliably heal my team, it seems like that won't work and I've just lost one way to actually get these covers. And if I have to, let's say, keep playing throughout all of the PvP event, I'll end up having to go against those big teams and get hit as easy points. It's been a bad day for me outside of this game, and maybe it's just put me in a doom and gloom mood, but I guess I'm struggling to see the positive of a change like this as someone trying to make that transition.

You only need top 100 to get a 3* cover. PVE is even more viable for everyone as it scales to their level. That is where you will get your progression.

That would already take a while, considering some PvE events take a week or longer. Even with how relaxed Iso-8 Brotherhood was, I was ONLY able to get a Top 100 and 1 Iron Man 40 cover. This event, any time I get close to Top 100, I end up getting into too many of those perfect games for enemies. And if I tried to grind the easier, lower point nodes, the scaling will just get that much worse.

Bleh... today was just a bad day, it seems. Not helping have much of a positive outlook on most anything.


Phantron: What you said is really being effected by not being able to have a positive outlook. So unless I'm able to still enter a PvP event late and get those points against other 2* teams, get to a level that should get me a 3* cover, and Shield, PvP is... pretty much pointless for me to even try in?

mouser

Meh, out with the old meta-game, in with the new meta-game.

There are a lot of things to dislike with this change, but one important issue that bears special consideration: if 2* rosters are crippled in their ability to heal, then they're reduced in the # of matches they can play, which means the amount of ISO they can gain while trying to break into 3* territory is being reduced. It also means the amount of time they can play the game is reduced.

I have a high end 3* roster. From a meta-game standpoint this change will benefit me more then it hurts. I still think it's completely wrong. I don't believe it's healthy for MPQ overall to make changes reducing the ability of 2* players to play more frequently to improve their rosters.

Dauthi

RichHurtz wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

RichHurtz wrote:

And if someone that was a 3* 141 team did attack me and take some of my points, I would hope it'd get to the point that they'd move well beyond me and the few points they'd get from beating me again wouldn't be worth it.

There is always another 141 looking for easy prey (you). Sure one passes you, but many more are lining up at your door.

Now without a way to reliably heal my team, it seems like that won't work and I've just lost one way to actually get these covers. And if I have to, let's say, keep playing throughout all of the PvP event, I'll end up having to go against those big teams and get hit as easy points. It's been a bad day for me outside of this game, and maybe it's just put me in a doom and gloom mood, but I guess I'm struggling to see the positive of a change like this as someone trying to make that transition.

You only need top 100 to get a 3* cover. PVE is even more viable for everyone as it scales to their level. That is where you will get your progression.

That would already take a while, considering some PvE events take a week or longer. Even with how relaxed Iso-8 Brotherhood was, I was ONLY able to get a Top 100 and 1 Iron Man 40 cover. This event, any time I get close to Top 100, I end up getting into too many of those perfect games for enemies. And if I tried to grind the easier, lower point nodes, the scaling will just get that much worse.

The top 10 in Juggernaut Heroic today was mostly teams of 85s. All it takes is some time and you can get 3 covers per week for PVE and 1 per pvp event (3 i believe). That's 6 covers a week plus any you find in tokens. 3* right now is the end game, it is the epic loot. It should be difficult to obtain because once you have it all, there isn't much left.

mouser wrote:

Meh, out with the old meta-game, in with the new meta-game.

There are a lot of things to dislike with this change, but one important issue that bears special consideration: if 2* rosters are crippled in their ability to heal, then they're reduced in the # of matches they can play, which means the amount of ISO they can gain while trying to break into 3* territory is being reduced. It also means the amount of time they can play the game is reduced.

I have a high end 3* roster. From a meta-game standpoint this change will benefit me more then it hurts. I still think it's completely wrong. I don't believe it's healthy for MPQ overall to make changes reducing the ability of 2* players to play more frequently to improve their rosters.

But 3* rosters are equally reduced in how much ISO they can earn as well. Everyone can no longer heal across the board.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

The top 10 in Juggernaut Heroic today was mostly teams of 85s. All it takes is some time and you can get 3 covers per week for PVE and 1 per pvp event (3 i believe). That's 6 covers a week plus any you find in tokens. 3* right now is the end game, it is the epic loot. It should be difficult to obtain because once you have it all, there isn't much left.

I'm not really sure if that sort of summary works in this situation since it was a limited Roster event that allowed

3*: IM40, Mohawk Storm, GSBW, Human Torch
2*: MN Thor, CStorm, M!Hawkeye
1*: IM35, BW

And a big part about the rewards depends on what the progress reward system is like. Either the cover of the "Featured" Character is easy to get or impossible. And it feels like you have to have the timing just right for playing to try to make sure you end up in one of those upper tier reward levels that gives you multiple covers.

mouser

Dauthi wrote:

mouser wrote:

Meh, out with the old meta-game, in with the new meta-game.

There are a lot of things to dislike with this change, but one important issue that bears special consideration: if 2* rosters are crippled in their ability to heal, then they're reduced in the # of matches they can play, which means the amount of ISO they can gain while trying to break into 3* territory is being reduced. It also means the amount of time they can play the game is reduced.

I have a high end 3* roster. From a meta-game standpoint this change will benefit me more then it hurts. I still think it's completely wrong. I don't believe it's healthy for MPQ overall to make changes reducing the ability of 2* players to play more frequently to improve their rosters.

But 3* rosters are equally reduced in how much ISO they can earn as well. Everyone can no longer heal across the board.

I know you're taking a contradicting position to every response in this thread, but it's absurd to believe that 3* rosters are equally impacted in their ability to collect ISO without healing.

2* rosters or shallow 3* rosters can now play less matches then they could yesterday. Less matches = less ISO. Whereas players with deeper rosters and regenerating 3*'s can continue to play at a similar pace. It's rather simple when you consider how frequently these two groups of players can now actually...well...play.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

RichHurtz wrote:

Honestly, this is just making it seem like "What's the point?" I've been struggling to make the transition from 2* to 3*, and have actually had luck lately since I would want until late in the events and start playing, usually only seeing other 2* 85 teams the whole time while being able to have a chance at getting those covers due to joining a later bracket. And if someone that was a 3* 141 team did attack me and take some of my points, I would hope it'd get to the point that they'd move well beyond me and the few points they'd get from beating me again wouldn't be worth it. Now without a way to reliably heal my team, it seems like that won't work and I've just lost one way to actually get these covers. And if I have to, let's say, keep playing throughout all of the PvP event, I'll end up having to go against those big teams and get hit as easy points. It's been a bad day for me outside of this game, and maybe it's just put me in a doom and gloom mood, but I guess I'm struggling to see the positive of a change like this as someone trying to make that transition.

If you have a strong team, but you do not shield aggressively, here's what usually happens. You make your climb, and then 4 teams just as strong as you hit you for 120 points. To make up for those points, you queue up 8 cupcake 2*s to try to salvage the 120 points you lost. Of course by the time you got them back you probably lost another 120 points, and so on. Note that the strong team guy is never going to get worn down by steamrolling these weak teams, so he only stops playing if he either gets too tired of riding the point rollercoaster, or if the guys attacking him stop harassing him. But, as long as 2*s are able to come up with a decent score, there's no reason for him to stop looking for them. If a 2* can hit 800, I estimate a top team can easily farm that team to 1100 (it'd still be awfully risky for the 2* team to counterattack a 1100 top team even with a 300 point difference). And why should he look for other opponent compared to a 2* that he can roll over and generally avoid retaliation? And remember this guy is going to be hit by other 3*s at the same time so he constantly needs to replenish his lost points.

Now I'm not saying this kind of gameplay is healthy but as long as everyone loses points very quickly without shields, the guys with the strong team is always going to look for the 2*s to try to make up their losses. They don't 'move on' unless they decide to put a shield, because you can easily hit 300+the highest 2* and that'd be far safer than trying to actually fight someone just as strong as you even if they're worth significantly more points.

You really need to stop projecting your paticular style of gameplay onto everyone else acting the exact same way, and extrapolating every single argument from there. It didn't make sense going with your top 1-2 pve strategies for top 20-100 behavior, and it doesn't make sense here.

Doubly so when you're applying how you play with a bunch of maxed 3*s to how a roster constrained 2* person plays.

Maybe I need to tank harder, but beyond like, 800, I never find any 2*s, and even if I did, at that point I'm skipping to look for people who have more than 30, even if they're 212/141/141 laken/sentries

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

You really need to stop projecting your paticular style of gameplay onto everyone else acting the exact same way, and extrapolating every single argument from there. It didn't make sense going with your top 1-2 pve strategies for top 20-100 behavior, and it doesn't make sense here.

Doubly so when you're applying how you play with a bunch of maxed 3*s to how a roster constrained 2* person plays.

Maybe I need to tank harder, but beyond like, 800, I never find any 2*s, and even if I did, at that point I'm skipping to look for people who have more than 30, even if they're 212/141/141 laken/sentries

You obviously run out of 2*s or maybe the MMR decides to close your access to them again (I never see them from 0-500 or so) at some point. I'm just saying if you could be seen by a high end 3* as a 2* they'd have no problem hitting you even if they're more than 200 points ahead because the risk of retaliation is so small. If you can consistently get 800 as a 2*, then people up to at least 1000 or so would still prefer to hit you over the typical team at that level. If it's not possible it's either due to MMR or a lack of 2*, but it's certainly not because 2* can escape the 3* by playing a lot. The mechanism that protects 2* is the MMR, and if MMR isn't working for whatever reason, a 2* isn't going to get anywhere whether you have healing or not.

Unknown

orionpeace wrote:

I think that you need to think it through a little better.

Cause the casual player will now get next to nothing.

And any player who was in the process of making the switch from 2* to 3* is royally screwed.

THIS!

I'm trying to make my 2->3* transition.
With so many 141lvl guys out there and the odds to get a 3* cover from any token, when do you guys think I'll be able to reach top 100 in any event? Never!
I dont want to use prologue healing, I just want to use in fight healing.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

You really need to stop projecting your paticular style of gameplay onto everyone else acting the exact same way, and extrapolating every single argument from there. It didn't make sense going with your top 1-2 pve strategies for top 20-100 behavior, and it doesn't make sense here.

Doubly so when you're applying how you play with a bunch of maxed 3*s to how a roster constrained 2* person plays.

Maybe I need to tank harder, but beyond like, 800, I never find any 2*s, and even if I did, at that point I'm skipping to look for people who have more than 30, even if they're 212/141/141 laken/sentries

You obviously run out of 2*s or maybe the MMR decides to close your access to them again (I never see them from 0-500 or so) at some point. I'm just saying if you could be seen by a high end 3* as a 2* they'd have no problem hitting you even if they're more than 200 points ahead because the risk of retaliation is so small. If you can consistently get 800 as a 2*, then people up to at least 1000 or so would still prefer to hit you over the typical team at that level. If it's not possible it's either due to MMR or a lack of 2*, but it's certainly not because 2* can escape the 3* by playing a lot. The mechanism that protects 2* is the MMR, and if MMR isn't working for whatever reason, a 2* isn't going to get anywhere whether you have healing or not.

I don't see how any of that has to do with the healing changes though?

Dauthi

mouser wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

mouser wrote:

Meh, out with the old meta-game, in with the new meta-game.

There are a lot of things to dislike with this change, but one important issue that bears special consideration: if 2* rosters are crippled in their ability to heal, then they're reduced in the # of matches they can play, which means the amount of ISO they can gain while trying to break into 3* territory is being reduced. It also means the amount of time they can play the game is reduced.

I have a high end 3* roster. From a meta-game standpoint this change will benefit me more then it hurts. I still think it's completely wrong. I don't believe it's healthy for MPQ overall to make changes reducing the ability of 2* players to play more frequently to improve their rosters.

But 3* rosters are equally reduced in how much ISO they can earn as well. Everyone can no longer heal across the board.

I know you're taking a contradicting position to every response in this thread, but it's absurd to believe that 3* rosters are equally impacted in their ability to collect ISO without healing.

Oh?

2* rosters or shallow 3* rosters can now play less matches then they could yesterday. Less matches = less ISO. Whereas players with deeper rosters and regenerating 3*'s can continue to play at a similar pace. It's rather simple when you consider how frequently these two groups of players can now actually...well...play.

Hmm, I realize I may not be very clear in what I am trying to say. Ill go in depth:

There are 2 different players and only one gets strongly affected by this change. That is the players that rushed 3 85s and healed them over and over while using spare iso to level a few growing 3*. They then rushed 3 3* characters to 141, this being the most efficient and effective way to get end game rewards, but forgoing diversity in playing different characters. Their roster is shallow, like you said.

Next we have players who saved ISO to level featured characters, effectively leveling all their characters. They are the 2*s who have full 85 rosters, so by the time they transition they are definitely not shallow. They transitioned to 3* by slowly leveling all their 3*s in the same manner as their 2*s, by leveling whatever is featured. They probably have been playing for a lot longer than those who rushed since they have had time to pump ISO into all their 85s and beyond. These people have an advantage now. They are, of course, not on the level of the top 1% with full 3* 141 rosters, but this group is very small.

Developers have been trying to push diverse rosters in many ways, most specifically with the limited rosters in Heroics. This also includes the MMR hell where those who rushed to 141 are now confronted with the end game they wanted so badly, fighting other 141's whether they have a full roster or not. Many players got the hint and took it slow, enjoyed the diverse gameplay of many characters, and are now being rewarded for taking the scenic route.

It isn't 2* vs 3*, it is deep roster vs shallow roster.

Does this make more sense?

Spoit

I'd argue that, even with the lack of healing, the person who has 3 141s and 3 85s is probably going to do a hell of a lot better than the person who has all the 2*s at 85. Even ignoring how the 3*s (probably) have more bang for their buck, and are able to do more with the medpacks than 85s, they'll be able to end on a solid (at least comparatively) defensive team. Like someone said earlier, there's really only about 3 viable pairs of 2*s: mag/cstorm and then mixing and matching ares/thor with obw/wolvie/(and maybe daken), so at most they'd really only have one extra 'team'

scottee

I'm starting to change my view on this topic.

In reality, it's only a nerf to people who were running OBW + Thor/Ares in PVP. The fact that every max 2* roster was able to constantly run OBW, compete against 3* teams, and walk out with full health, was a little bit ridiculous. I know because I abused this like crazy. Up until the change, I was still running OBW + Punisher/LazyThor, simply because I could walk out with full health. In fact, the only thing holding me back was that eventually attacks come faster than you can get wins. But health packs never ran out.

The above cannot be the way the game was intended to be played. It also cannot be the way the 2* to 3* transition was meant to be.

As someone who just got out of the 2* to 3* transition, and now has three level 141's and two more max covered (plus some two-color 3*'s covered), my progression when something like this:
a) Max all of my 2* characters that I use. (Thor, Wolvie, Ares, OBW, MMag, CStorm, Daken, Cap)
b) Slowly start collecting random 3*'s through tokens, daily rewards, and some low end PVE and PVP finishes.
c) Usually place top 25, sometimes top 10, by abusing OBW+Thor, in PVP's and continue to slowly get random 3* covers.
d) All the random 3* covers eventually led to getting Punisher to 100.
e) Start using OBW+Pun to get some top 10's, and sometimes reach the 900pt HP reward.
f) Eventually get Pun to 141.
g) Pretty much never miss the top 10 again, still using OBW+Pun/LThor.
...
h) Have a handful of maxed 3*'s, and more that are cover maxed.


Basically I was still using OBW up until the healing nerf, even though I could have been using double 141's instead. OBW allowed you to play forever, and I don't think it was intended. In fact, this led to a certain newbie guide telling everyone to basically have two or three 85's that you use over and over and not level anyone else. This was also obviously not intended. She is still just as effective at winning a single match; she just doesn't let you win 30 matches in a row, which was again never intended.

TLDR: OBW was tier 2.5. Many thought she should be nerfed. She's now tier 2.25.

P.S. Pretty sure all mobile/F2P game makers would rather you play three 1-hour sessions a day than one 3-hour session.

scottee

Also, level 85 OBW/Thor shouldn't have been able to compete for top 10 rewards. 2* rosters should be competing for one to two 3* covers, not two to three.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

Hmm, I realize I may not be very clear in what I am trying to say. Ill go in depth:

There are 2 different players and only one gets strongly affected by this change. That is the players that rushed 3 85s and healed them over and over while using spare iso to level a few growing 3*. They then rushed 3 3* characters to 141, this being the most efficient and effective way to get end game rewards, but forgoing diversity in playing different characters. Their roster is shallow, like you said.

Next we have players who saved ISO to level featured characters, effectively leveling all their characters. They are the 2*s who have full 85 rosters, so by the time they transition they are definitely not shallow. They transitioned to 3* by slowly leveling all their 3*s in the same manner as their 2*s, by leveling whatever is featured. They probably have been playing for a lot longer than those who rushed since they have had time to pump ISO into all their 85s and beyond. These people have an advantage now. They are, of course, not on the level of the top 1% with full 3* 141 rosters, but this group is very small.

Developers have been trying to push diverse rosters in many ways, most specifically with the limited rosters in Heroics. This also includes the MMR hell where those who rushed to 141 are now confronted with the end game they wanted so badly, fighting other 141's whether they have a full roster or not. Many players got the hint and took it slow, enjoyed the diverse gameplay of many characters, and are now being rewarded for taking the scenic route.

It isn't 2* vs 3*, it is deep roster vs shallow roster.

Does this make more sense?

Maybe you don't remember the days of a 2*. Playing PvP, you only have a few usable characters - of the 12 2* characters, at most, 7 are usable. One unlucky cascade, followed by a Call the Storm (and nearly every potential opponent has Thor) and your team is shut down for 3 hours until health packs regen. For those in transition, it doesn't matter how deep the roster is, we are no longer threats for top 50 in PvP. Hopefully in 48 hours, I will be proven wrong, but I am already about 150 points behind my standard pace in PvP.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

You really need to stop projecting your paticular style of gameplay onto everyone else acting the exact same way, and extrapolating every single argument from there. It didn't make sense going with your top 1-2 pve strategies for top 20-100 behavior, and it doesn't make sense here.

Doubly so when you're applying how you play with a bunch of maxed 3*s to how a roster constrained 2* person plays.

Maybe I need to tank harder, but beyond like, 800, I never find any 2*s, and even if I did, at that point I'm skipping to look for people who have more than 30, even if they're 212/141/141 laken/sentries

You obviously run out of 2*s or maybe the MMR decides to close your access to them again (I never see them from 0-500 or so) at some point. I'm just saying if you could be seen by a high end 3* as a 2* they'd have no problem hitting you even if they're more than 200 points ahead because the risk of retaliation is so small. If you can consistently get 800 as a 2*, then people up to at least 1000 or so would still prefer to hit you over the typical team at that level. If it's not possible it's either due to MMR or a lack of 2*, but it's certainly not because 2* can escape the 3* by playing a lot. The mechanism that protects 2* is the MMR, and if MMR isn't working for whatever reason, a 2* isn't going to get anywhere whether you have healing or not.

I don't see how any of that has to do with the healing changes though?

The common compliant against healing change seems to be that healing is what allows you to compete against the high end players, or at least give you a chance to recover when the high end guys invariably smack you down. This is wrong. MMR is what gives you a chance against these guys. As long as a top end team can see a 2* team for any reason, there's no hope for the 2* because the disparity between the team strengths is too great. We know MMR breaks at some point for some unknown reason, and the end result is that whenever MMR ceases protecting the 2* players they lose most of their points. And even if they just handed out a level 141 GSBW and IM40 to everyone, all that really changes is that instead of farming Thor 2* + OBW you're farming those two characters. I'm not even sure if this team is even more threatening than Thor + OBW (would take longer to win, but not having AR means the offense can easily setup whatever killer combo without possibility of being interrupted)

So the problem is that MMR doesn't always work, and even if it did there's a rather large difference between the top tier characters to 2* and even most of the other 3*s that renders your team as fodder status compared to the strong teams. There are legitmate issues and should be fixed.

GrumpySmurf1002

Dauthi wrote:

It isn't 2* vs 3*, it is deep roster vs shallow roster.

Except there's not such thing as a 'deep' 2* roster. You can have all 12 of them maxed, you still only have 6-8 playable ones in the PvP (and if you care about defense, 4-5). And it only takes a couple insta-whacks from Ares or Thor to make your playable ones gasping for health packs.

With the PvE today requiring health packs to survive regardless of the change, it's hard for me to gauge exactly how long I can stretch a 8-maxed 2* roster. I'm guessing where I could easily stretch a session 4 hrs+ (w/o prologue heal), I'm doubtful I can get more than 90-120 minutes without needing to put it down and wait, even with Wolv/Daken able to somewhat sustain. That's a pretty big, and annoying, difference.

That's not even talking about the competitive aspect, which yes, 2* can't compete with 3*, big whoop. This is the simple "can i play the game at all" aspect.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

I'm starting to change my view on this topic.

In reality, it's only a nerf to people who were running OBW + Thor/Ares in PVP. The fact that every max 2* roster was able to constantly run OBW, compete against 3* teams, and walk out with full health, was a little bit ridiculous. I know because I abused this like crazy. Up until the change, I was still running OBW + Punisher/LazyThor, simply because I could walk out with full health. In fact, the only thing holding me back was that eventually attacks come faster than you can get wins. But health packs never ran out.

The above cannot be the way the game was intended to be played. It also cannot be the way the 2* to 3* transition was meant to be.

As someone who just got out of the 2* to 3* transition, and now has three level 141's and two more max covered (plus some two-color 3*'s covered)

So what you're saying is that you abused OBW to 3* level, but think that it should be fixed to slow the transition for everybody else.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

You really need to stop projecting your paticular style of gameplay onto everyone else acting the exact same way, and extrapolating every single argument from there. It didn't make sense going with your top 1-2 pve strategies for top 20-100 behavior, and it doesn't make sense here.

Doubly so when you're applying how you play with a bunch of maxed 3*s to how a roster constrained 2* person plays.

Maybe I need to tank harder, but beyond like, 800, I never find any 2*s, and even if I did, at that point I'm skipping to look for people who have more than 30, even if they're 212/141/141 laken/sentries

You obviously run out of 2*s or maybe the MMR decides to close your access to them again (I never see them from 0-500 or so) at some point. I'm just saying if you could be seen by a high end 3* as a 2* they'd have no problem hitting you even if they're more than 200 points ahead because the risk of retaliation is so small. If you can consistently get 800 as a 2*, then people up to at least 1000 or so would still prefer to hit you over the typical team at that level. If it's not possible it's either due to MMR or a lack of 2*, but it's certainly not because 2* can escape the 3* by playing a lot. The mechanism that protects 2* is the MMR, and if MMR isn't working for whatever reason, a 2* isn't going to get anywhere whether you have healing or not.

I don't see how any of that has to do with the healing changes though?

The common compliant against healing change seems to be that healing is what allows you to compete against the high end players, or at least give you a chance to recover when the high end guys invariably smack you down. This is wrong. MMR is what gives you a chance against these guys. As long as a top end team can see a 2* team for any reason, there's no hope for the 2* because the disparity between the team strengths is too great. We know MMR breaks at some point for some unknown reason, and the end result is that whenever MMR ceases protecting the 2* players they lose most of their points. And even if they just handed out a level 141 GSBW and IM40 to everyone, all that really changes is that instead of farming Thor 2* + OBW you're farming those two characters. I'm not even sure if this team is even more threatening than Thor + OBW (would take longer to win, but not having AR means the offense can easily setup whatever killer combo without possibility of being interrupted)

So the problem is that MMR doesn't always work, and even if it did there's a rather large difference between the top tier characters to 2* and even most of the other 3*s that renders your team as fodder status compared to the strong teams. There are legitmate issues and should be fixed.

I will agree with that part. Though if you have points, even a 212/141/141 team isn't going to do much against the zombie hordes, and I'm still not sure if I see how that is necessarily linked to the healing thing, rather than just poor design in general

scottee

papa07 wrote:

scottee wrote:

I'm starting to change my view on this topic.

In reality, it's only a nerf to people who were running OBW + Thor/Ares in PVP. The fact that every max 2* roster was able to constantly run OBW, compete against 3* teams, and walk out with full health, was a little bit ridiculous. I know because I abused this like crazy. Up until the change, I was still running OBW + Punisher/LazyThor, simply because I could walk out with full health. In fact, the only thing holding me back was that eventually attacks come faster than you can get wins. But health packs never ran out.

The above cannot be the way the game was intended to be played. It also cannot be the way the 2* to 3* transition was meant to be.

As someone who just got out of the 2* to 3* transition, and now has three level 141's and two more max covered (plus some two-color 3*'s covered)

So what you're saying is that you abused OBW to 3* level, but think that it should be fixed to slow the transition for everybody else.

I'm saying I knew it was unfair at the time. I felt bad for duel 141 teams I was slapping down. Is it unfair that I got to abuse it while now others won't? Yes. That doesn't mean the change isn't justified.