***** Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes) ***** - Rebalance Details (10/26/21)

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  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    What devs do is really good on designing and on thematics, and also on rebalancing with the other characters. 
    However when you have a character who destroys 5 tiles adding AP each turn totally for free, and you have another one who ridiculously increases damage on others powers with just 1 TU, those 2 can change the perception on how good is a new release, even some people can be deceived on this game being a meta characters game.

    Obviously those 2 seem to be untochable due to their popularity, and each new release must be changed having in mind them.
    For a balanced game those 2 should act different however their powers are not so obvious as one character crushing/stunning players on defense.
    Imo devs have been on different stages on creating OPs or balanced characters, and personally I think they are quite right on the current design process.
  • Glockoma
    Glockoma Posts: 553 Critical Contributor
    @IceIX I really tried to enjoy the GRRR rework, and for the most part I did. Solid overall.

    However, his green is just glaring to me. Especially after a boosted week in tandem with his much better half. 
    Without having him champed prior to his rebalance, it’s hard for me to fully realize the “nerf” to this power. I’ve read plenty of complaints about it since his release, (I don’t think I need to go into details here), and that’s about the long and short of that.

    The fact that it evolved to the sorely missed 1-turn cd tile (still hurts thinking about 3* Blade and 4* Marvel team…loved it) feels like an intentional setup for some team options to enterprise on this rather unique skill nowadays. It just misses the mark with it’s cost (9 AP) or lack of being able to be fortified effectively (Hawkeye, Green Goblin do not fortify the respawned tile even after order of operations by placing him in “the back” [right side of team]).

    To disclaim: I’m slightly focused on pick-2 style gameplay given it’s the minimum in team mechanics and quite prevalent. 
    I really wanted this to work, but it’s just not jiving. It’s too fragile and or one will never see the AP in some matches. This should have been a cheap spammy skill in practice. I was hoping for a 5* Hawkeye/GRRR duo, but it’s not really effective at all. Otherwise, the other Ghost Rider in the tier (Deadpool) pretty much outshines this one. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    What I noticed about order of operations is this:

    Step 1) trigger all powers of characters once only at the start of turn , unless specified otherwise.
    Step 2) trigger all cds and repeaters from top to bottom, left to right. 

    Because his cd triggers after step 1, it didn't get fortified. The only way is to recode the game such that step 2 switches priority with step 1.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    That it no longer collects AP for his other two powers is the biggest sin in my opinion - that was his whole build concept in original form. Hell Rid would go out and clog all the green, and accrue green/red/black for 300% match damage so you could do his other stuff faster. He used to be a great Sighclops partner because that multiplier went on his base damage, and now he is a great C4rol partner assuming you can bring a third that makes strikes faster than she does.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,613 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think we might have to accept that these rebalances are going to be hit and miss and guided from a Dev point of view rather than a player one. The last thing we need is rebalancing rebalances because that will just get us nowhere.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Yeah, we get what we get and don’t get upset, but I do think it’s worth communicating what matters to us. Robby was one of the better “internally consistent” designs before, and now he is slightly disjointed because of what feels like an arbitrary change. He would have been good with the red and black changes and a number pump and dump. I have to imagine that he was given another CD to force some Hawkeye synergy, or maybe Abigail? But for me that was not a successful change and I’d rather have kept his old power by a long shot.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am pretty confident his damage output would have been much higher if it had been left alone, so that’s probably what happened. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Probably, they find it too strong if they kept the 300% tiles destruction increment and aps gained with the increase in match damage. Of course, they could dial down the % and aps gained, but it might be met with a worst impressions than
    changing the power totally.

    Let's assume they presented the rework GR with say:

    100% tiles damage destruction bonus and ap cap of 1 ap per green/black/red.

    How would you have reacted? I expect 100% of the knee-jerk reaction to be 100% "nerf"!

    With a new power, at least the reactions are split, and not a 100% negative reaction.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    By that you mean 100% additional damage, and no matter how many repeaters went off you would only gather a single AP of each color?

    yes, that would have been a nerf but at least you could still run him with Sighclops and use green as an anti-hulk and anti-thor, and any AP gain you got is far and away superior to 0 AP gain.

    I admit that I am probably biased since he was my transitional 5* and I had to use him a TON until I got Doom champed, but to me Hell Ride was his X factor, chain whip being way too vulnerable to the then-prevalent Kitty meta and the now-prevalent Wanda meta to use, and his black being fine when you got the AP, it feels like his soul has been removed.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2022
    Yes, and yes, I agree it's still better than nothing. 

    Probably first impression was a big factor. Over time, players might think that it's better than nothing, but they'll still remember it as a nerf. I think one of the reworked 4* gave such impressions. Was it Mr Fantastic?


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mr. Fantastic and 4* Kingpin were both sort of nerfed, Kingpin's was only a buff if he is paired with goons in PVE on the opponent side but he absolutely became less useful for players who can only partner him with tile movers. HIs black used to be fireable any time, and better with CDs out, and now it can't be fired at all unless at least one CD is in play. As I understand it, Mr. F has been touched more than one time though, so my perception of the most recent rework was definitely a step down from what I believe was the buff he'd been given previously.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,613 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kingpin was both nerfed and buffed at the same time but it was only the player who suffered as he normally comes in PvE with some handy countdown generating goons which made his new black power just fine and dandy...against us.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Only his black power was nerfed? How about purple and yellow? I quite like his purple power to generate tons of yellow aps. 8 I think?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/26649/kingpin-wilson-fisk-updated-8-22-17

    You can see his original kit behind the spoiler tag
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Actually I find his current black power better since he can deal AoE but you need 3 cds. His black power, while cheap (6ap), deals Level 5 - 2309 + 2959 bonus damage. Maybe, back then, in August 2017, 6 black aps for this amount of damage is considered high?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    The big nerf was that you didn't used to need a CD in play to fire it at all. Now you have to have fired his yellow unless he is partnered with someone else who creates CDs to do anything with it. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,613 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    The big nerf was that you didn't used to need a CD in play to fire it at all. Now you have to have fired his yellow unless he is partnered with someone else who creates CDs to do anything with it. 

    This and Kingpin's yellow is not cheap but also actually does decent things that you would be happy for the countdown tiles to resolve to achieve.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    His yellow is actually superior to Coulson's in some ways, so running the two of them together even with that much overlap was pretty good in those old days.
  • MoosePrime
    MoosePrime Posts: 950 Critical Contributor
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    The big nerf was that you didn't used to need a CD in play to fire it at all. Now you have to have fired his yellow unless he is partnered with someone else who creates CDs to do anything with it. 
    Also, it used to destroy the countdown tiles, now it removes them.  The old way triggered 4* Deadpool's Countdown for What damage, the new way does not.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    That's a good synergy. Was he paired with Medusa back then before his nerf?

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