Next 5* is the 50th!

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  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
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    How many games have playable Nazis?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,162 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I know there have been at least 2 games with playable red skull, one of them a Lego game.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dormammu said:
    How many games have playable Nazis?

    I agree - it is not a common things. Do we really want to "Welcome Red Skull to S.H.I.E.L.D"? There has also been an historical tendency for Marvel to be happy with the concept of Nazi's in the comic books but not so keen in other media although it has obviously happened. There was going to be a Captain America animated show in the 90's which ran into money problems but also got scrapped because Marvel were adamant they didn't want Nazi's as the bad guys or Nazi images used BUT there was a massive problem - the show was going to be set in WWII. Not ideal really. Wal-Mart were also very resistant to toys based on Nazi imagery which created licensing nightmares. They don't want Red Skull action figures that have descriptions on them relating to anything to do with it. The Captain America: First Avenger movie does have Nazi's around the fringes but HYDRA are the main bad guys. HYDRA can be anything Marvel wants them to be in terms of their villainous philosophy and they can stand in for Nazi's without having to acknowledge that is what they are doing. So I can see the issues with staying true to Red Skull. There are also Jewish heroes/characters in the game and the idea that players might be able to use Red Skull to specifically "kill" these characters might have sent a few shudders.
    You might say that it is hypocrisy - why is it OK for Thanos to practice mass genocide and be in game? But I guess there is enough of a fantasy barrier separation there maybe. Thanos is purple after all.
    But who knows? That is all just speculation and maybe there are other reasons.
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,007 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2020
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    Dormammu said:
    How many games have playable Nazis?
    Red Skull is playable in marvel contest of champions.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    BriMan2222 said:
    Dormammu said:
    How many games have playable Nazis?
    Red Skull is playable in marvel contest of champions.

    As is...Dormammu!
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
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    And Contest of Champions is published by who? Isn't it possible an entirely different publisher might have squishy feelings about it, in this era when over-sensitive finger pointing is an issue? I have no idea if that's the reason, I'm just saying it could be.
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,007 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2020
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    Dormammu said:
    And Contest of Champions is published by who? Isn't it possible an entirely different publisher might have squishy feelings about it, in this era when over-sensitive finger pointing is an issue? I have no idea if that's the reason, I'm just saying it could be.
    Yes, that could be.  If you look back at my previous comment on page 1 you will see that I said exactly that.  That maybe the issue is D3/demi have a problem using red skull (although I think they have stated before that marvel is ultimately the one that calls the shots on which characters are added).  That wasn't the question though.  The question which I was answering was "How many games have playable Nazis?"

    I was answering that question, which other marvel games do indeed have a playable nazi.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    It seems Red Skull is no problem if he is also adorable!

  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,723 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2020
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    Just did a google search for "playable nazi characters"...

    There's a few out there... but not many.  The Lego Indiana Jones game lets you play as so many characters, including some of the baddies too... and we know that list includes some undesirables.

    Most playable Nazi characters seem to be from a "turned" perspective (once a nazi, now an anti-nazi, or something similar).

    Also, There's a Marvel character named "Dr Nemesis"...?  I guess he was a nazi, then an anti-nazi, and eventually became an x-man?  Strange...

    Anyways, I always assume that it just comes down to marketing and PR.
      1)  This is fiction.  No matter how much of our reality we want to pour into this, it's just fiction.  Even more-so, it's a match-3 game!  It's not like we're playing a GTA game, or the Witcher, or Elder Scrolls, or Fallout, and we're "getting into the character".  If we were, then I think all of our Apocalypse users must have a huge ego or something!  ;)   
      2)  Mark him as a villain and be done with it.  If they're REALLY shy about it, just don't state 'nazi' or 'anti-jewish' or whatever anywhere!  You can easily just state in his bio that he was Captain America's greatest adversary during the years X to Y, leading the enemy army, heading an early-years Hydra campaign.  It's simple wordplay.  Can people look up who he is online?  Sure!  Is the Red Skull a REAL person?  No!  Are we pretending to be the person we're playing as in a match-3 game?  See #1!
      3)  It's not like MPQ is gonna start pumping out nazi-propaganda for the new character release.  Even if they did an "Introducing..." for him as a 5* (yes, I would assume such a notable character to deserve that rating), they can easily make the 5 nodes for him revolve around his battles with Captain America or other good guys, never really mentioning the word 'nazi' or 'swastika' anywhere.  Once again, wordplay.

    Sorry -- maybe I'm missing the mark somewhere.  Not that I don't understand what the issue is, but its the precautionary stance against making a fictional villain because of presumed PR that has me scratching my head.  I'm pretty sure that ever since the Red Skull was a thing, that not a SINGLE PERSON was like "Oh, I wanna be just like HIM!" ... well, unless they were already a nazi... but then, why would you be reading a piece of fiction that glorifies your fictional enemy?  Whatever.  I'm in the camp of "who cares"... because I have yet to see any post or blog or whatever that ever convinces a person to change their stance on a subject.  Not a single anti-Trump post has ever convinced a Trump supporter to change their thoughts, and vice-versa.

    I can't imagine a scenario where the Red Skull is released in a match-3 game, and that somehow lights the fires of the Karens of the world, and emboldens any currently playing nazis.  If this is a reason to not release him, then I think they are being way too overly cautious.

    Edit:  fixed grammar
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I know there have been at least 2 games with playable red skull, one of them a Lego game.

    He is in Lego Marvel's Avengers as playable - his portion in the game is based around the Cap:FA movie, so I guess they could shift him more towards being HYDRA.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    PiMacleod said:
    Just did a google search for "playable nazi characters"...

    There's a few out there... but not many.  The Lego Indiana Jones game lets you play as so many characters, including some of the baddies too... and we know that list includes some undesirables.

    Most playable Nazi characters seem to be from a "turned" perspective (once a nazi, now an anti-nazi, or something similar).

    Also, There's a Marvel character named "Dr Nemesis"...?  I guess he was a nazi, then an anti-nazi, and eventually became an x-man?  Strange...

    Anyways, I always assume that it just comes down to marketing and PR.
      1)  This is fiction.  No matter how much of our reality we want to pour into this, it's just fiction.  Even more-so, it's a match-3 game!  It's not like we're playing a GTA game, or the Witcher, or Elder Scrolls, or Fallout, and we're "getting into the character".  If we were, then I think all of our Apocalypse users must have a huge ego or something!  ;)   
      2)  Mark him as a villain and be done with it.  If they're REALLY shy about it, just don't state 'nazi' or 'anti-jewish' or whatever anywhere!  You can easily just state in his bio that he was Captain America's greatest adversary during the years X to Y, leading the enemy army, heading an early-years Hydra campaign.  It's simple wordplay.  Can people look up who he is online?  Sure!  Is the Red Skull a REAL person?  No!  Are we pretending to be the person we're playing as in a match-3 game?  See #1!
      3)  It's not like MPQ is gonna start pumping out nazi-propaganda for the new character release.  Even if they did an "Introducing..." for him as a 5* (yes, I would assume such a notable character to deserve that rating), they can easily make the 5 nodes for him revolve around his battles with Captain America or other good guys, never really mentioning the word 'nazi' or 'swastika' anywhere.  Once again, wordplay.

    Sorry -- maybe I'm missing the mark somewhere.  Not that I don't understand what the issue is, but its the precautionary stance against making a fictional villain because of presumed PR that has me scratching my head.  I'm pretty sure that ever since the Red Skull was a thing, that not a SINGLE PERSON was like "Oh, I wanna be just like HIM!" ... well, unless they were already a nazi... but then, why would you be reading a piece of fiction that glorifies your fictional enemy?  Whatever.  I'm in the camp of "who cares"... because I have yet to see any post or blog or whatever that ever convinces a person to change their stance on a subject.  Not a single anti-Trump post has ever convinced a Trump supporter to change their thoughts, and vice-versa.

    I can't imagine a scenario where the Red Skull is released in a match-3 game, and that somehow lights the fires of the Karens of the world, and emboldens any currently playing nazis.  If this is a reason to not release him, then I think they are being way too overly cautious.

    Edit:  fixed grammar

    Your viewpoint comes from a stance of not having to worry about potential damage to the bottom line. It is an easy stance for us players to take. Is the Red Skull a classic villain? Check. Would it be cool to play as him? Sure. Wait, we get a Cosmic Cube! Sign me up!
    Corporate thinking also looks at that but it then also says - we could use Red Skull who is sort of a maybe problem or we could use Annihilus who is just a space insect. I could see how the space insect might win - both of them want to wipe out people who are not their own race though. Same difference!
    Marvel, D3, Demi, like any other company will shift it's views on certain hot topics, often down to a change of personell or leadership. We all know Disney are far more concerned about "brand protection" than many other companies.
    Joe Quesada introduced a "no smoking" policy in the Marvel Comics during his tenure as EiC - his reasoning was that he simply did not want Marvel heroes to promote it. It was OK for Wolverine to slice one hundred Ninja's in half but he couldn't then have a smoke to enjoy all the blood and guts. Gambit, Thing and Nick Fury presumably got nicotine patches. Disney have never bothered to reverse it to my knowledge, suggesting they agree.
    A Ghost Rider story was once changed because it suggested that the actual Jesus Christ was appearing in the pages and that seemed a bad idea. Nobody contacted anybody to ask if they would be offended, the risk was simply not taken.
    Unfortunately, the more sophisticated and analysed comic books have become, the more some of their simplistic origins have been exposed. Cap got his abilities through super steroids! Iron Man was an arms dealer! Mr. Fantastic is an mysognystic ****! It didn't matter then but it might do now. So lets just pretend that never happened. Red Skull - is there a way that he could try *not being a Nazi*, that would be swell!
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,723 Chairperson of the Boards
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    It's not just bottom-line worry... it's just simple word-play, in my opinion.  Does any of us actually think of the people and creatures that Thanos has slaughtered when we use him?  No.  We recognize him as a 'bad guy', and use his Court Death at will.  We're not gleefully rubbing our hands together when we use Mr. Sinister either.

    I do recognize that the Nazi party was (and sadly is) real.  I also realize that they don't have to mention it anywhere in the game.  Just because it existed in the past doesn't mean it has to exist now.  Like you sad, Nick Fury, Ben Grimm, Wolverine, etc.... got nicotine patches (i just chuckled because I realize that Patch got a patch).  They don't acknowledge the 'bad habit' anymore, and explained it when they had to; you know, when they 'ripped the band-aid'.

    So, just don't state it.  It's easy.  Make him all about Hydra and leave it there.  Once again, we can look up his past stuff, but THIS game won't acknowledge it.  Kinda like how I don't think we'll ever see Disney producing a MCU movie about Captain's recent adventures working for the enemy... just don't acknowledge it.

    I see a potential gain for the game and long-time fans, and the only risk it would take is if they worded it wrong.  Don't call his green power "The Third Reich".  Don't mention "the perfect race".  Don't say the things that make it bad -- I mean, how hard is that?  Instead, you can focus on other things, like how he was the first to get the serum -- the ORIGINAL super-soldier, if you will.  You can focus on the army he commands and gladly stands BEHIND, unlike Cap, who takes the lead in his charges.  You can even focus on his Hydra scientist experiments and treat them like Doc Ock's experimental stuff.

    I do understand that the company wants to distance themselves from a negative image -- so do that.  Your fanbase will not forget the major villain in the first Captain America MCU movie.  I also understand that it's easier to use someone who's "universally evil" like Galactus or Annihilus or Thanos... but they can't think for a second that the crowd is gonna forget such a big name.  

    And I would HOPE that if they DID use him, that Red Skull's ICON wouldn't hold them back!!  I mean... it's pretty easy to NOT use a swastika, and instead, just use the Hydra icon.  

    Eh, I realize by now that I probably sound like a Red Skull fan.  And ...heh, I'm not.  I know of him because of comic book popularity which is found in our games and movies.  I just know that there's a whole ton of people who'd like to see him in the game somehow.... because that's how fandom works.

    OOOOOO, I just thought of a way to have it happen!  If he can't be playable because they don't want him in our hands... he should be the next BOSS event!!  Right?!  I know some of you gotta agree with me on that.  
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 971 Critical Contributor
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    All I hope for is that it's gonna be a villain. They are underepresented in 5* land imo.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2020
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    There's probably a dozen different factors (hands in the pie, if you will) when it comes to new character releases. Contractual things, like promoting current events in comics, television, and movies. There are also restrictions due to other licensing deals. MPQ was certainly under a strict prohibition not to base any characters off Fox's X-Men movies, a restriction that has since been lifted with Disney's acquisition of 20th Century Fox and evidenced by the release of Negasonic Teenaged Warhead - the first MPQ character to bear the likeness of an X-Men character from the 'Fox universe'. MPQ only got into the movie versions of Spider-Man characters after Sony & Disney got into bed together. Both of these situations is proof that Marvel has at least some say in who MPQ is allowed to feature.

    As far as I know there's no licensing deal that would prevent Red Skull, as Marvel is in full-control of Captain America and all associated characters after the rights reverted back from Universal Pictures years ago. But maybe Marvel restricts marketing and licensing on certain of their characters, only allowing them out for certain games/lunchboxes/whatever. Or maybe MPQ just hasn't gotten to him yet. Maybe someone doesn't want a Nazi in an all-ages match-3 game, or maybe they're saving Red Skull for a 10th anniversary extravaganza.

    Who knows what could possibly be preventing the arrival of Red Skull. Maybe something, maybe nothing.

    It's hard for me to criticize MPQ for not including anyone (Red Skull or otherwise) when I have no idea what the story is behind-the-scenes.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited October 2020
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    So many essays over RS as a potential character that really distracts from the fact that supposed "endgame" content is at 50 characters.

    Might just be me, but me thinks we need more ways to gain 5s with so many available. Like adding 5* shard to PvP progression rewards.

    And never gonna happen but I can dream, a full cover in scl10 pve.


  • Dirtytactics22
    Dirtytactics22 Posts: 23 Just Dropped In
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    Therealsmkspy said:
    So many essays over RS as a potential character that really distracts from the fact that supposed "endgame" content is at 50 characters.

    Might just be me, but me thinks we need more ways to gain 5s with so many available. Like adding 5* shard to PvP progression rewards.

    And never gonna happen but I can dream, a full cover in scl10 pve.


    This! All I didn't want this to get into a heated debate about weather red skull could be in game or not, just wanted some cool ideas for who was missing/ 5* variants of existing characters. I to am hoping that they address the fact that 5* are more common now and need at least a couple of extra ways to acquire them. An extra node on deadpool daily that had a required 5* would be a start.
  • BlackBoltRocks
    BlackBoltRocks Posts: 1,160 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Dirtytactics22 said:
     I to am hoping that they address the fact that 5* are more common now and need at least a couple of extra ways to acquire them. An extra node on deadpool daily that had a required 5* would be a start.
    - make Classics and Latests have a 20 or 25% rate of 5*
    - have three random 5* covers in vaults, like they currently do for 4*
    - give a full cover (500 sharts) instead of the current 250 sharts in PvE progression
    - give 5* sharts in PvP progression
    - have rotating stores that feature classic 5*

    There are so many ways. I wish the devs and game would stop gating 5* the way they are or treating them like the forbidden fruit.
  • RentedPanda
    RentedPanda Posts: 95 Match Maker
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    Fiftyeth five? Fin Fang Foom

    Alliteration demands it
    Fifty-first or fifty-fifth would also be acceptable 
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
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    For the love of GOD give us Adam Warlock once and for all !!!!! How is it possible we dont have him yet...

    Also, pretty please, give us a great 5 again. It is time for a meta char, after so many decent/good chars in a row (everything after Apoc).
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,618 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Polares said:
    For the love of GOD give us Adam Warlock once and for all !!!!! How is it possible we dont have him yet...

    Also, pretty please, give us a great 5 again. It is time for a meta char, after so many decent/good chars in a row (everything after Apoc).

    Wasn't Adam Warlock going to be part of GotG3 I seem to remember it was rumoured? No idea if we will ever actually get GotG3...so sure, why not.

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