Remove "special rules" from Trial of the Planes

Legacy is already full of some of the most powerful cards and combos, it's a very fast format and it's easy to win (and sometimes lose) in the first 1-3 turns. But the double damage, supercharged, legendary stuff is overkill and it severely hampers any ability to play non-spammy speed/loop decks.

In the interest of allowing more variety in deck building, can we just have the special rules removed? It's already a huge challenge to build decks to stand up against deploy (and I don't always want to play it myself) without having to deal with the excessive nature of the bonuses the AI gets. 

Comments

  • SmokincookzSmokincookz Posts: 41 Just Dropped In
    edited November 2019
    Agreed, it’s a bad feeling losing the regular node matches to luck and knowing you’ll have to be subject to the worst punishment, AND still end up losing 30 crystals sometimes. 

    Legacy is such a tinykitty show even without the insanity of these nodes...
  • HoradrimHoradrim Posts: 90 Match Maker
    Either remove the special rules, or make the cost cheaper (e.g. 30 crystals to break even).
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2019
    I'm going to just say no on this.

    ToTP is fine the way it is.  You are not supposed to gain crystals on it, it's supposed to be a way for players to convert crystals to jewels (in fact, it originally didn't even have the crystal reward, that was added in later after some complaints).

    The special rules are there for an added challenge.  This is supposed to be a top challenge for players to run amok with their most busted decks, since its the only place outside of TG where you don't have secondaries to worry about.

    Its fine.  Insanity is good sometimes.  Losing is ok sometimes.  Lets worry about other things.
  • QuantiusQuantius Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
    They don't add challenge, they simply prevent any other decks types from existing. I want to use *other* busted cards instead of the usual suspects, but because of the special rules, everything that isn't combo is at a disadvantage. So it's just the same thing over and over and over. Hey look another T1 win. Yay. Thanks Deploy combo.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Quantius said:
    They don't add challenge, they simply prevent any other decks types from existing. I want to use *other* busted cards instead of the usual suspects, but because of the special rules, everything that isn't combo is at a disadvantage. So it's just the same thing over and over and over. Hey look another T1 win. Yay. Thanks Deploy combo.
    Really?  Because I've blown through ToTP with Standard decks and a variety of non-combo Legacy options with no issue.  Sure the extra rules make it harder, but certainly not impossible.

    As long as you pack enough removal any deck can win fine.  You just need to be prepared for the combos.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just an FYI for anyone still following this.

    Today I played ToTP Blue using the following decks:

    A Dovin 1 Energy deck that literally has not changed since AER was the newest set, so no Gonti's Heart or Dynavolt in it (although I probably should add at least 1 of them in).  3-0 on the first node, no sweat.

    A Tezz 2 Marionette Master deck that I have had longer than I have had Marionette Master.  Mostly made of Innistrad clue stuff.  3-0 on the enraged node, got hit once in 3 fights.

    A Standard Teferi tokens deck.  3-0 on the Supercharged node, even beating a Brokhan ramp loop deck.

    You can win ToTP with any good deck.  Mastery decks of random stuff probably won't work, but anything coherent and somewhat thought out will win almost every time, since Greg is a freaking moron.  Lets leave this good event the way it is.
  • QuantiusQuantius Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
    We can't all be as good as you.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Quantius said:
    We can't all be as good as you.
    So?  You said that the node special rules prevent you from using alternate strategies and winning.
    I used alternate strategies and won.  If you can't figure out how to use your "other busted cards" and still win, why should we destroy an entire event?

    If you want I can give you my energy or Marionette Master decklists, they are pretty low-budget.
    Its 1 mythic that really isn't needed, 5 rares, two of which are just removal, and 4 commons/uncommons for the energy, and 
    1 MP (not needed), 2 mythics, 2 rares, and 5 common/uncommons for the Marionette one.

    My point is just that you don't need a busted deck to win in ToTP.  Today I played a random Domri deck that was pre-ELD standard that basically just combos with Razia and Rampaging Ferocidons and won most of my matches (not all, but enough for the last progression reward).  Yesterday I ran a Mr. Steal-yo-deck Bolas build that basically just plays your opponent's deck.  Only mythic in there is Chaos Wand.

    I hate using the Dark Souls argument because it's stupid, but if you're problem with an event is just that you can't make a semi-coherent deck to play it maybe you just need to get better at deckbuilding.
  • QuantiusQuantius Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
    I feel I'm a pretty good deck builder tbh, but I'd be happy to check out some decklists since I gave it a go yesterday with some slower decks and got obliterated in a few turns and reverted to using very fast decks that win in <5 turns. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

    I don't have Dovin 1, but I am closing in on finishing up the legacy card pool, just 14 Mythics and 31 MP's to go, so I can build most things.
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Here's the Tezz the Schemer build:

    Hannah, Ship's Navigator
    Marionette Master

    Infernal Reckoning
    BSZ (oops, forgot that was there)

    Insidious Will
    Tammiyo's Journal
    Trial of Ambition
    Blightcaster
    Storm the Vault

    Hannah is really just there for insurance if your stuff gets destroyed, she can be replaced by a lot of other creatures (anything that has an ability that triggers when a support enters the battlefield or is destroyed will work).
    Most of the time you want to drop Tezz's Construct as soon as possible, but with the right hand you can just race to his ult.

    Look, this deck won't win 100% of games.  A turn 1 HUF Deploy is gonna mess up your day for sure.
    But it certainly is a lot slower than a Turn-3 win Combo deck and it wins most of its matches in Legacy pretty handily.
  • QuantiusQuantius Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
    I tried it out in TG's and it's pretty quick (I slipped in Spell Swindle as the 10th card), but I can see it having a harder time in TotP, particularly on the bot and left nodes where the opponent can outpace the removal due to mana gains.

    However, I love Tezz and happen to have a very fast Marionette deck already:

    Marionette Master
    Djinn of Wishes

    Depths of Desire
    Blue Sun's Zenith
    Siren's Ruse
    Teferi's Time Twist
    Spell Swindle

    Omniscience
    Storm the Vault
    Tamiyo's Journal

    Rather than attempting to control or run interference, I just go for machine gun marionette / A3 damage. But again, this is exactly my problem with TotP. Even your deck is quick, it's not going to take 10+ turns to win. So if I want to run other archetypes like midrange, or control, or even combo with more/or slower pieces, it's just not viable (assuming you don't want to throw away the crystals . . . I wouldn't mind as much if there was nothing on the line, like in TG I'm happy to play all sorts of stuff).
  • Mburn7Mburn7 Posts: 3,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Quantius said:

    Rather than attempting to control or run interference, I just go for machine gun marionette / A3 damage. But again, this is exactly my problem with TotP. Even your deck is quick, it's not going to take 10+ turns to win. So if I want to run other archetypes like midrange, or control, or even combo with more/or slower pieces, it's just not viable (assuming you don't want to throw away the crystals . . . I wouldn't mind as much if there was nothing on the line, like in TG I'm happy to play all sorts of stuff).
    Hmm, I consider that deck pretty midrange-ish, so maybe I've been misunderstanding your point.
    There are plenty of games where you need to grind it out through removal and it plays like more of a control deck (remember I made it before I got Marionette Master, so I had to stall long enough to use his second and then his ult to win).  My Dovin Energy deck is much slower most of the time and is definitely more of a control deck, but I don't think it'll work with Saheeli or Tezz without some changes (I don't think there are any white cards in there, honestly, just blue).

    The best and worst thing about this game is that any slow deck is also a fast deck with a nice draw and cascade.
    I do agree that in ToTP the bonus nodes really amplify that acceleration, however I still disagree that it makes life too difficult.  I find it very fun, and one of the few times in this game I actually feel challenged in a good way to win a fight (not challenged because I need to stall, just a pure fight to win).  That's why I don't want it changed.
  • SmokincookzSmokincookz Posts: 41 Just Dropped In
    After reading the other perspectives here, I’m going to agree that it’s best left unchanged. 
    While it is extremely challenging to me, I am doing much better lately. 
    As I continue to hone my abilities, I know I’ll appreciate the challenge more. Often I try to get through it after work, tired, & I’ll get absolutely punished once in a while.

    Sometimes it’s a close call to win, usually not. 
    For TOTP black, I have to make sure there’s plenty of time left on the clock before committing to it. Until I craft Omniscience, my decks are fast only if I’m lucky. I should look into faster strategies with the cards I already have.

    Tonight, after getting home, I figured the 1 hr 20 mins left was enough to clear 8 matches. Ofc Greg pounds me, early dropping Emrakul in 6 of those games. Lose 3 matches. Insanely bad draws, bad board colors my turn, and good timing for what Greg was playing in almost every match. 
    I kid you not, my starting hand in more than half of those games was the worst possible for starting my combo off (2 River’s Rebuke, and 1 Electrodominance, or 1 Imprisoned in the Moon with them, for example. Startled Awake, BSZ, & Bring to Light not drawn for ages).

    Anyway, time gets sucked down by cookie-cutter loop decks and my losses. I managed to win, but literally had 1 min 37 seconds left after the last match. Holy tinykitty. A very close shave indeed.

    I expect Emrakul often, and it comes out often. A highly overused card. It doesn’t always mean instant doom though. I can’t always feel sharp enough at the end of a long day to want to risk the crystals. However, I think the event should be left as is anyway. 
  • QuantiusQuantius Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
    I really don't get why people want less variety, but w/e. It's doubly weird if you're trying to build fast decks to avoid the special rules in the first place.

    My OP wasn't intended to get rid of fast decks. My entire point is that legacy is chalk full of really powerful cards that *should* be able to stand up against these combo and fast decks, but because of the special rules are at an inherent disadvantage.

    Maybe a different flavor of TotP where fast decks are at a disadvantage would make people happy, I dunno. I just thought, if you clear out the special rules, then fast decks can continue doing what they do (no change there), but you are also not handicapped for playing other powerful decks. An even playing field between archetypes is all I'm asking for.


  • HoradrimHoradrim Posts: 90 Match Maker
    If they can only decrease the cost to 30 crystals, I have no issues with TotP... especially now that Vanguards alt (and other Fblthp event cards) are accessible ONLY via crystals. I stopped playing this event when Fblthp event came out (because of crystal drain), I am just playing it through the holiday season because of the cheaper cost. @Oktagon_Support recommend 30 crystals for entry... will benefit a lot of newer players and increase your daily engagements.
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