Legacy Cards in Standard Format Exploit (10/1/18)

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  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Tremayne said:
    Question to D3/Octagon concerning this bug.
    1. I didn’t know an exploit existed until it was communicated, so I was unable to send a ticket or otherwise help with the fixing of the bug.
    2. I haven’t on purpose attempted to cheat, but I don’t know if I have accidentally used this bug during an event.
    3. When I make a deck and it is accepted by the app, then I do not verify that it is standard. I expect the app to take care of that! Even though I have played the app for a long time. Why you ask, see bullet 1.
    4. Once I have made my deck, I tend to play with that deck during the entire event without changing it. Changes occur occasionally, if I have forgotten a crucial component which either makes me loose a match or loose points.
    5. I rarely end up with top-10 prizes for various reasons, but I guess that bullet 4 is the main reason. I assume that top players alter their deck depending upon the opponent they are matched up against.

    The play-style and the communication from D3/Octagon plus the speculation on the forum makes me concerned. How can a player provide any proof of innocence to being accused of exploiting the legacy in standard bug if they have a similar approach as I have stated above?
    If you saw legacy cards in standard PvP events, you knew something was wrong and should have reported it. 

    As for the rest, it wasn't really easy to inadvertently put the legacy cards in your decks. There were several steps to using the exploit. If you used it, you did it on purpose. 

    However -- there is some speculation that changing a deck in story mode could also change it in an event -- if that happened to you and you then saw that you were playing the wrong deck in a live event, would you not see that as a bug and report it? 

    If you didn't, then you exploited the game. 
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,611 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2018
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    Thank you for the reply @bken1234

    I don’t recall seeing legacy cards in any match I played but you know what, with all matches I play I regularly loose track of which type of event I’m in.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    bken1234 said:
    Tremayne said:
    Question to D3/Octagon concerning this bug.
    1. I didn’t know an exploit existed until it was communicated, so I was unable to send a ticket or otherwise help with the fixing of the bug.
    2. I haven’t on purpose attempted to cheat, but I don’t know if I have accidentally used this bug during an event.
    3. When I make a deck and it is accepted by the app, then I do not verify that it is standard. I expect the app to take care of that! Even though I have played the app for a long time. Why you ask, see bullet 1.
    4. Once I have made my deck, I tend to play with that deck during the entire event without changing it. Changes occur occasionally, if I have forgotten a crucial component which either makes me loose a match or loose points.
    5. I rarely end up with top-10 prizes for various reasons, but I guess that bullet 4 is the main reason. I assume that top players alter their deck depending upon the opponent they are matched up against.

    The play-style and the communication from D3/Octagon plus the speculation on the forum makes me concerned. How can a player provide any proof of innocence to being accused of exploiting the legacy in standard bug if they have a similar approach as I have stated above?
    If you saw legacy cards in standard PvP events, you knew something was wrong and should have reported it. 

    As for the rest, it wasn't really easy to inadvertently put the legacy cards in your decks. There were several steps to using the exploit. If you used it, you did it on purpose. 

    However -- there is some speculation that changing a deck in story mode could also change it in an event -- if that happened to you and you then saw that you were playing the wrong deck in a live event, would you not see that as a bug and report it? 

    If you didn't, then you exploited the game. 
    What if you reported it but kept using it?  Is that still cheating?

    I mean, going back to the buggy cards argument, I reported Resilient Khenra as bugged several times, but I still used it in all my graveyard shenanigans decks.  Does that make me a cheater?  Are people who continued using Zendikar's Roil and Path of Mettle cheaters if they didn't report that it was bugged, or if they did?

    Also it isn't speculation about the story mode thing.  There are no event decks available for story mode, only custom deck slots.  If you were using a custom deck slot for an event at the same time you would trigger the bug.
  • Helmit
    Helmit Posts: 5 Just Dropped In
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    Just a thought here.

    Let me preface this by saying that I am too dumb and busy to even try to use exploits so I did not try it.

    And while I dont agree with some people taking advantage of this to have an upper hand and bump other people out of reward brackets, I am wondering why they would be penalized for finding a way to manipulate the game?

    I know this point of view will not be popular, and most will not agree with me. Even in composing this, I am not sure how I fell about it or where I fall on the topic.

    However, to take the devils advocate position, if the game has a programing error, or "back way" to manipulate the game and maximize on rewards, how is this a player issue.

    Moreover, even though it can be viewed as "unethical" or "poor form", exploits have been a part of gaming forever.

    Look at online multiplayer games. We run raids and look for exploits to beat boss fights and maximize our rewards all the time. Granted the ones I have participated in are PVE, and exploits do not affect other players or coalition reward, but still.

    I guess what I am saying is, should people exploiting this game "error" be penalized for it?

    I remember a recent event where some people, received extra node charges due to server issues. Of course they played the extra nodes and scored more points. Why wouldn't they? Should I then be penalized for this?

     
  • IM_CARLOS
    IM_CARLOS Posts: 640 Critical Contributor
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    I don't change my decks for the same reason, not for specific pw and I came out top5 (sometimes even P1) from time to time. 

    But it's a good point. Maybe I will change more often to get a better matchup against specific pw. 
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Helmit said:
    Just a thought here.

    Let me preface this by saying that I am too dumb and busy to even try to use exploits so I did not try it.

    And while I dont agree with some people taking advantage of this to have an upper hand and bump other people out of reward brackets, I am wondering why they would be penalized for finding a way to manipulate the game?

    I know this point of view will not be popular, and most will not agree with me. Even in composing this, I am not sure how I fell about it or where I fall on the topic.

    However, to take the devils advocate position, if the game has a programing error, or "back way" to manipulate the game and maximize on rewards, how is this a player issue.

    Moreover, even though it can be viewed as "unethical" or "poor form", exploits have been a part of gaming forever.

    Look at online multiplayer games. We run raids and look for exploits to beat boss fights and maximize our rewards all the time. Granted the ones I have participated in are PVE, and exploits do not affect other players or coalition reward, but still.

    I guess what I am saying is, should people exploiting this game "error" be penalized for it?

    I remember a recent event where some people, received extra node charges due to server issues. Of course they played the extra nodes and scored more points. Why wouldn't they? Should I then be penalized for this?

     
    Because the event had rules — if you broke those rules, you cheated. 

    I mentioned this in another thread @Helmit — But think of it this way —

    You are going to play a Standard paper tournament — is there anything stopping you from putting legacy cards in your deck? No... but you will be disqualified if you do. 

    Rules are rules — they are laid out in every event — if you make the choice to break them, you should be disqualified. 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    bken1234 said:
    Helmit said:
    Just a thought here.

    Let me preface this by saying that I am too dumb and busy to even try to use exploits so I did not try it.

    And while I dont agree with some people taking advantage of this to have an upper hand and bump other people out of reward brackets, I am wondering why they would be penalized for finding a way to manipulate the game?

    I know this point of view will not be popular, and most will not agree with me. Even in composing this, I am not sure how I fell about it or where I fall on the topic.

    However, to take the devils advocate position, if the game has a programing error, or "back way" to manipulate the game and maximize on rewards, how is this a player issue.

    Moreover, even though it can be viewed as "unethical" or "poor form", exploits have been a part of gaming forever.

    Look at online multiplayer games. We run raids and look for exploits to beat boss fights and maximize our rewards all the time. Granted the ones I have participated in are PVE, and exploits do not affect other players or coalition reward, but still.

    I guess what I am saying is, should people exploiting this game "error" be penalized for it?

    I remember a recent event where some people, received extra node charges due to server issues. Of course they played the extra nodes and scored more points. Why wouldn't they? Should I then be penalized for this?

     
    Because the event had rules — if you broke those rules, you cheated. 

    I mentioned this in another thread @Helmit — But think of it this way —

    You are going to play a Standard paper tournament — is there anything stopping you from putting legacy cards in your deck? No... but you will be disqualified if you do. 

    Rules are rules — they are laid out in every event — if you make the choice to break them, you should be disqualified. 
    The key difference between rules in an app and rules in real life are accountability.

    When you enter a paper tournament, they check your deck before you can play.  And if you somehow sneak a card in you are immediately punished when you show it.  And that is what is expected.

    In an app or video game (on whatever platform) you expect the code to do basically the same thing.  If a deck is illegal the code should not allow you to enter it or use it in an event where it is illegal.  Since in a computer environment you are only able to do what is allowed by the code you assume that if you are able to do it, it is allowed in the code.

    In real life you can do whatever you are physically able to do.  You may be punished, but that is well understood as a consequence of your freedom (well, understood by most).  In a computer environment, you do not have that freedom.  So why should we assume that something that is allowed by the code is illegal?  And even if we did, why would we assume that there would be no notice from the development team, and then a sudden punishment. 

    Its the same issue that happened when the Elder Dragons were available to craft.  We all assumed that since they were in the crafting pool, they were supposed to be there and meant to be crafted.  Obviously something felt sketchy about it, but the logic was that if it was programmed in it must be ok.  Should everyone who crafted an Elder Dragon be punished?  And if not, why is that ok but this is not?

    And if you are still using the event rules logic, up until 2.9 the event rules still said that the Kaladesh and Amonkhet blocks were legal.  Does that mean if you used the exploit but only used cards from that set it is ok, since it still followed the rules?  Or were you supposed to also assume that the rules shown in the event were incorrect as well?
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
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    @Mburn7 I think you just articulated my primary problem with photo enforcement of traffic laws...  The feedback comes only weeks after the infraction...

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ElfNeedsFood said:
    @Mburn7 I think you just articulated my primary problem with photo enforcement of traffic laws...  The feedback comes only weeks after the infraction...

    At least there you at least get a flash warning you that you might have **** up lol
  • Helmit
    Helmit Posts: 5 Just Dropped In
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    Well if nothing else I like that this sparked a debate. It’s done now. And there is no real harm. So I don’t really care. 

    I just think that in a gaming environment, if the program is faulty or wrong, and you are knowledgeable/smart/creative enough to find an exploit, you shouldn’t be penalized for “breaking” a game. 

    Its a game, with rules. Not a society or government with laws. No one was hurt or otherwise harmed. 

    To to continue with my devils advocate stance @bken1234
  • Sarahschmara
    Sarahschmara Posts: 554 Critical Contributor
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    Thank you for the information @Brigby

    Can you give us an idea of how widespread this was?

    When you say that the rewards were removed from the players accounts, I assume you mean crystals, mana runes, and jewels but not cards (boosters). Is that correct? So the cheaters did still come out ahead?

    Also, can you tell us how coalition rewards were affected by players using the exploit?

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2018
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    wereotter said:
    Mburn7 said:
    bken1234 said:
    Tremayne said:
    Question to D3/Octagon concerning this bug.
    1. I didn’t know an exploit existed until it was communicated, so I was unable to send a ticket or otherwise help with the fixing of the bug.
    2. I haven’t on purpose attempted to cheat, but I don’t know if I have accidentally used this bug during an event.
    3. When I make a deck and it is accepted by the app, then I do not verify that it is standard. I expect the app to take care of that! Even though I have played the app for a long time. Why you ask, see bullet 1.
    4. Once I have made my deck, I tend to play with that deck during the entire event without changing it. Changes occur occasionally, if I have forgotten a crucial component which either makes me loose a match or loose points.
    5. I rarely end up with top-10 prizes for various reasons, but I guess that bullet 4 is the main reason. I assume that top players alter their deck depending upon the opponent they are matched up against.

    The play-style and the communication from D3/Octagon plus the speculation on the forum makes me concerned. How can a player provide any proof of innocence to being accused of exploiting the legacy in standard bug if they have a similar approach as I have stated above?
    If you saw legacy cards in standard PvP events, you knew something was wrong and should have reported it. 

    As for the rest, it wasn't really easy to inadvertently put the legacy cards in your decks. There were several steps to using the exploit. If you used it, you did it on purpose. 

    However -- there is some speculation that changing a deck in story mode could also change it in an event -- if that happened to you and you then saw that you were playing the wrong deck in a live event, would you not see that as a bug and report it? 

    If you didn't, then you exploited the game. 
    What if you reported it but kept using it?  Is that still cheating?
    Yes. Yes you are.

    Just because you CAN do something in a way that’s unintended, doesn’t mean it’s not cheating when you do. Think of it more like this: you CAN go to the prerelease events day one, and then day two, smuggle in your best pulls to have an advantage the next day. Maybe no one would know. Are you still cheating? Absolutely. You’re playing with cards that weren’t allowed for you in that event specifically because they weren’t in your prerelease kit for that day. And to your question, you can’t then report yourself for cheating, and then still think you’re okay to continue cheating the next time, because you already said you did it once.

    if you have the knowledge of how to cheat an event, you have more responsibility not to do it than those who don’t know and stumble onto it. It’s called having integrity. 
    I'm still having trouble understanding the real-world analogies to this.

    Obviously if I smuggle cards into a prerelease that's cheating, but there's an entire different assumption to how things work in the real world versus on a computer/phone.

    In the real world I can do whatever I am physically able to do.  I want to punch someone in the face, I can do it.  Sure, I shouldn't and I will be punished for it, but I can do it and am aware of the consequences.

    In an online environment, however, I am greatly limited in what I can do by what the code allows me to do.  There is an assumption that goes with that which is if I am able to do it, it must be allowed.  I don't have to exert extra control over my actions here because I am literally unable to break the rules without some sort of hacking (which I do not have the skill or time to do).  When the Elder Dragons were available to craft, the assumption was that it was ok, since if it wasn't they wouldn't have been available for crafting.  Obviously it was still suspect and it turned out to be a bug, but I didn't see much clamoring for those who crafted them to be punished.

    Now I agree that it is morally in a bit of a grey area, because while you may not technically be breaking the rules (not sure if you ever checked the rules, but pre-2.9 they still said that standard was Kaladesh, Amonkhet, and Origins.  Lol).  And like I said, I only used it for 2 of the more challenging fights in BoFT, where I did about the same as I would have with a standard deck, just 30-60 minutes faster.  Does that make me a cheater?  I don't think so.  Clearly you disagree.
  • FindingHeart8
    FindingHeart8 Posts: 2,730 Chairperson of the Boards
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    This sounds like to be an overall great time for me to have been fairly inactive in mtgpq, I seem to have missed a lot of things.

    So there were multiple events where you could use legacy cards in standard events? 

    1) Were the players notified that they could not use legacy cards in standard decks?  I didn't see anything new or different when I checked my inbox today.

    2) Were there any obvious signs (like in-game graphic glitches) to hint that using legacy cards in standard was not okay?

    If the answer to these questions is no, there is no argument to claim it's immoral for players to use what they were permitted to do.  It's not exploiting.  Players did what they were allowed to do, and it's not their responsibility to restrain themselves from content that the developers (aware or not) have given them access to.  It's called Corporate Social Responsibility.

    Now if a player hacked MTGPQ and was able to play legacy cards in standard events, then we definitely have an argument for exploitation with concrete grounds for punishment.

  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
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    FindingHeart8 said

    ...
    2) Were there any obvious signs (like in-game graphic glitches) to hint that using legacy cards in standard was not okay?

    Yeah, for example the rules. Undertaking a long process of steps inside and outside the event to get the effect makes it obvious that this is not desired by the devs as well. It wasn't like you just threw the legacy cards into the deck in the event!
    Plus, yeah, I am told what cards are legal whenever I click on an event.


    FindingHeart8 said:

    If the answer to these questions is no, there is no argument to claim it's immoral for players to use what they were permitted to do.  It's not exploiting.  Players did what they were allowed to do, and it's not their responsibility to restrain themselves from content that the developers (aware or not) have given them access to.  It's called Corporate Social Responsibility.

    Well, no. It's not. CSR is a vague expression that's often used in a suboptimal context: In this case, it doesn't make any sense regarding any of the definitions I'm aware of.

    Players didn't do what they were allowed to do. They did things that were possible to do by using a loophole, complex enough so they had to be aware that what they were doing wasn't part of the design, and directly against the written rules of the event. Those who did it multiple times in different events did it with the intention to abuse it to gain a competitive advantage, and those are the ones who get punished.

    If they don't lose their accounts I wouldn't even say they've been punished hard.
  • Sarahschmara
    Sarahschmara Posts: 554 Critical Contributor
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    FindingHeart8 said:
    This sounds like to be an overall great time for me to have been fairly inactive in mtgpq, I seem to have missed a lot of things.

    So there were multiple events where you could use legacy cards in standard events? 

    1) Were the players notified that they could not use legacy cards in standard decks?  I didn't see anything new or different when I checked my inbox today.

    2) Were there any obvious signs (like in-game graphic glitches) to hint that using legacy cards in standard was not okay?

    If the answer to these questions is no, there is no argument to claim it's immoral for players to use what they were permitted to do.  It's not exploiting.  Players did what they were allowed to do, and it's not their responsibility to restrain themselves from content that the developers (aware or not) have given them access to.  It's called Corporate Social Responsibility.

    Now if a player hacked MTGPQ and was able to play legacy cards in standard events, then we definitely have an argument for exploitation with concrete grounds for punishment.

    No, @FindingHeart8 it was we who missed you!

    After the deal was broken, it turns out it was much easier to stumble upon the “exploit” then “they” would have one believe. Heck, yeah  I may have actually stumbled upon it myself when accidentally fat-fingering the default deck gif story mode in between coalition matches. 

    Luckily (for me), the devs seem to have settled on <10 times since the bug was reported (purely speculation on my part in absence of official standards).

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