A funny thing happened on the way to D3 Go! Forums....

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  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
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    Bowgentle said:
    abmoraz said:
    LifeofAgony said:
    I too would be very interested to here the reasoning behind this.
    MtGPQ's player base (at least the ones participating on the forums) are much less toxic and full of less vitriol than MPQ's forumites.

    /Hate and Vitriol make the work go round

    Will himself stated in one of his threads that being roasted is part of the job.
    They are not bother by "hate and vitriol"
    In most jobs that interact with customers they aren't going to bad mouth the customers to their faces.  Just because they give the 'it doesn't bother us' response doesn't mean it's true.  Anthony on Discord has gone on, not rants, but tangents several times talking about how we need to remember that the people that make the content are people too and should be treated with respect.  And he's 100% correct.  I know I've had my moments where I've typed things I regret, to devs and other forumites, but I'll never defend the fact that I did it, encourage it, or even shrug it off and go 'eh it's fine'....
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    All I really want, and most players like me, is just some tie dialog that I have seen on Discord here.  On this forum, not there.  I don’t want what PW3 have built on Discord to go away by any means.  I just want them Dev team here more.  

    The Colog threads that Will showed up for during that 2 month period were so refresh.  When Will was active, man did we all @ each other on Line (if you are on Line you know what I mean) to tell alret all of us that he was active. It was great and very insightful.  

    What i still don’t understand is why MtGP can have exactly what we want but we cannot have it here. Why?  It is a simple enough question.  A lot of “anger”, “toxic”, “snarky” and just bleh attitude towards the game and what we see could be prevented by doing something.  Doing nothing doesn’t help.  This type of Q&A could be a big help.  
  • ZeiramMR
    ZeiramMR Posts: 1,357 Chairperson of the Boards
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    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
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    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    correlation and causation.  we are discussing all the dev traffic on discord, and you mentioned snark took place in the other threads.  maybe more of a implication?  hard to describe with words.  maybe a jump to conclusion mat?

    anyway

    you said there was snark, and i would love it if you backed it up with evidence.  i don't remember it, and i was going to look for it myself, but the threads are 10, 5 and 4 pages each, and i decided the onus is on you since you make the claim.  What snark can we deem so bad that they should stop posting on the forum?  i remember those threads and don't recall anything all that terrible.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
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    So 1st and foremost marvel is super sensitive about there Ip's especially anything connected to movies and such. Which puzzle quest seems to have a lot. One screw up might mark the end of the game. Mistake or not

    Also I think the over all tone on the forum is just far to negative, be it reason for it or not. It's hard to discuss game plans and progression when you get chewed out by most of the post asking "why didn't you do this" or "why don't nerf or buff or offer that"

    Another thing is how big is the puzzle quest team? If its like a dozen people... they really don't have the man power to be doing Q&A's like that. 

    All in all I don't think its worth it to them to do Q&A's when they can get "valuable" information from there survey's.

    There are very few non bias posters, or  even reasonably bias...

    Most Q&A's would go

    Are you getting rid of supports
    When are supports going to pvp?
    6 stars?
    Is the game dying?
    When are you opening a clearance level?
    DD getting a revamp
    Character buffs?
    New Pve events?
    More ways to get 5 stars?

    repeat.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    thedarkphoenix said:
    Another thing is how big is the puzzle quest team? If its like a dozen people... they really don't have the man power to be doing Q&A's like that. 
    I'd be VERY surprised if it's 12 people.

    From how long changes take, and seemingly simple fixes like changing rewards, or changing the font size, I don't think there's more than 6 actual coders on the game.

    Will, Anthony, Casey, Kabir... and maybe a couple others we don't know.
    I think that's about it.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    If you look at Demiurge's website, it seems like the staff strength is pretty small -- probably ~15 to 20 as of 2017. They are working on other games besides MPQ.

    I think they shared the development process before, so changes are not as fast as the players expect to be:

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/57468/a-glimpse-of-the-development-process-1-18-17

    Again, changes made are based on priority. So, if it's easy and insignificant, it will be down the priority list.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    thedarkphoenix said:

    Most Q&A's would go

    Are you getting rid of supports
    When are supports going to pvp?
    6 stars?
    Is the game dying?
    When are you opening a clearance level?
    DD getting a revamp
    Character buffs?
    New Pve events?
    More ways to get 5 stars?

    repeat.

    Yes these are some of the questions that would be asked.  How about these?


    Will the 48 hours sub in Meet me and Groot ever be fixed with the points not give correctly?  This has been an issue since, I think, this event was launched.

    Will more Red ISO be attainable in the rewards tables?

    Will the Daily Re Supply list ever be tweaked?

    Have you looked at or considered a streak breaker with pulling LT/CPs?  Going 0-48 is not a nice feeling and we know this is not "luck of the draw"

    Is there any thoughts on updating SIM rewards?

    Is there any thoughts on updating season rewards past 10,000 points?

    It is about 19 months since Gauntlet has ran, is there a reason why this was mothballed?

    Heroics PVE with Limited rosters, will this ever make a return?  If somebody does not have a character for this, can they use a loaner like you do with the "yellow" nodes?

    Is it possible for PVE, when doing the essentials, that the required 2/3/4/5* be at the front like they are in Lighting rounds no matter what level they are at?

    So we got a new PVE for GoTG and Black Panther but not Infinity war, was there any reason behind this?



  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    The discussion is dealing with dev presence on this forum and how we would like to see more of it.

    Our Devs are on discord more than here it would seem as several people pointed out.

    You gave a possible reason why they are less present here, "snark". I connected your comment to discord because it makes no sense that if snarky comments drove them from this forum that discord is some internet safe space utopia that they are present on
    because its peaceful.

    I used your comment  to disprove that bad player attitudes cannot be the reason they are on discord more than their official forum.

    I am sorry if you feel I mis quoted you. I feel that all comments in a discussion are a part of the discussion and not unconnected random thought bubbles.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
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    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    The discussion is dealing with dev presence on this forum and how we would like to see more of it.

    Our Devs are on discord more than here it would seem as several people pointed out.

    You gave a possible reason why they are less present here, "snark". I connected your comment to discord because it makes no sense that if snarky comments drove them from this forum that discord is some internet safe space utopia that they are present on
    because its peaceful.

    I used your comment  to disprove that bad player attitudes cannot be the reason they are on discord more than their official forum.

    I am sorry if you feel I mis quoted you. I feel that all comments in a discussion are a part of the discussion and not unconnected random thought bubbles.
    I go to discord pretty regularly, it does feel far less snarky.  It has it's moments, but usually there is backlash against the snark, either by a dev or other players.  

    IMO there are several reasons Discord is less snarky:
    1.  Because the devs are there.  Feeling like you aren't being listened to leads to frustration, frustration can lead to being overly negative or aggressive.  On top of that it's a whole lot easier to talk bad about someone behind their back then it is to be mean and rude to them to their face.  Even in times were people do get overly harsh usually Anthony will come in and say something like 'Come on, we're people and someone worked really hard on that.  Being negatives is OK, but don't attack the creators directly" and the person will calm down and apologize or after a dev and multiple other players call them out on being to mean they quiet down.
    2.  It's far less restrictive.  The rules on the forums are frankly overbearing more often than not.  Feeling like your being nagged, scrutinized, and/or oppressed also leads to frustration, see above.
    3.  Discord is more like a conversation while the forums are more like a letter to the editor.  This can be both good and bad as people have discussed some of the bad above.  However one of the good things is rather than someone with a negative opinion being able to write out pages and pages of negative, snarky, over-reaction and send it all at once with no mid thought peer review.  On Discord they'll get a few lines in before people call them out and force them to rethink what they were going to put.
  • Kishida
    Kishida Posts: 310 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2018
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    broll said:

    3.  Discord is more like a conversation while the forums are more like a letter to the editor.  This can be both good and bad as people have discussed some of the bad above.  However one of the good things is rather than someone with a negative opinion being able to write out pages and pages of negative, snarky, over-reaction and send it all at once with no mid thought peer review.  On Discord they'll get a few lines in before people call them out and force them to rethink what they were going to put.
    I always thought of Discord as something like texting while you're at your job, whereas the forum is like emailing from your work account.

    This is an awkward comparison, but as an extended metaphor, MPQ reminds me of a restaurant. They're trying to bring in customers of all types, keep them happy, and keep the business afloat and as profitable as possible. Sending out surveys is essentially soliciting feedback through comment cards. The interaction with the forum is more like a long line of customers who all want to talk to the chef. Some of the questions definitely require immediate attention ("I think you switched the salt in this dish for sugar." "Why won't you let me take my leftovers home?"), but there are some questions that just aren't worth the chef's time. ("You know that sandwich you got rid of last year? Are you bringing it back? No? Why not?" "Let me see all your recipes." "You're cooking that the wrong way." "I found a typo in the menu.") When they're trying to turn over tables quickly and prepare for health inspections, some of these issues probably come across as pretty inconsequential. It seems like there's one clear way to get a response, and the best bet is to get your fellow customers to bring it up in the comment cards.
  • Ptahhotep
    Ptahhotep Posts: 416 Mover and Shaker
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    I suspect that the devs see Brigby as their spokesperson on the forum. Consequently they do not feel they need to be here themselves. Perhaps what we need is a regular dev’s newsletter that answers questions that crop up, gives feed back on things like survey results, insights into the creation of particular characters or game mechanisms and teasers for future developments. Maybe Brigby could coordinate its creation.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Colognoisseur said:
    The Discord crew of devs and D3 go there because it is nicer and easier; no one challenges them or more precisely is allowed to. It's not better or worse it just is what it is.

    This is demonstratively untrue.  I've seen (and been instigator of) many direct challenges to the devs on discord.  I agree to the nicer and easier but not that no one challenges them.  This is completely and utterly false.  Just because something is nice doesn't mean crtizism and challenge don't exist in them.

    A good example is the day the save/cover trade was change from 5 to 3 for 5*s.  A number of people including myself and Hendros where in there raising a ruckus about how changing the trade was fine, but having bank as low as 3 was really bad for players.  I flat out accused them intentionally giving players what they asked for when the knew it would benefit the devs more than the players (I'm not proud of that).  Ice explained to me that I was wrong and they were simply trying to respond quickly to strong player backlash.  He said they would look at some of Hendross' graphs and have a meeting about it.  Not sure if the save 50-100 covers idea came from that meeting or was planned all along, but yeah there was challenge.

    I can think of at least 3 or 4 other instances like this that I was directly apart of and certainly don' go there daily.

    Now there is a lot of just general water cooler talk even more than game related stuff, but that doesn't mean they are never challenged there.

    If you really want to get down to it.  I've seen more threads closed or deleted by mods here than people ever silenced on discord.  There is a certain majority rules mob mentality were if someone crosses the line the discord regulars get on them, but I'm not aware of them being banned, muted, blocked, or their comments being removed.  
  • ZeiramMR
    ZeiramMR Posts: 1,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
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    Spudgutter said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    correlation and causation.  we are discussing all the dev traffic on discord, and you mentioned snark took place in the other threads.  maybe more of a implication?  hard to describe with words.  maybe a jump to conclusion mat?

    anyway

    you said there was snark, and i would love it if you backed it up with evidence.  i don't remember it, and i was going to look for it myself, but the threads are 10, 5 and 4 pages each, and i decided the onus is on you since you make the claim.  What snark can we deem so bad that they should stop posting on the forum?  i remember those threads and don't recall anything all that terrible.
    That's fair enough, I didn't feel like searching for the thread on Mobile yesterday either while I was rushed for time.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71795/april-q-a-with-demiurge-will/p3
    Reactions about expert players at the company. Which led to...

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71915/the-demiurge-players-should-uncloak/p1
    Snark might not be the best term for this thread, but there were clearly some of the people acting in bad faith. Not to mention some of the demands about developers winning rewards.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ZeiramMR said:
    Spudgutter said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    correlation and causation.  we are discussing all the dev traffic on discord, and you mentioned snark took place in the other threads.  maybe more of a implication?  hard to describe with words.  maybe a jump to conclusion mat?

    anyway

    you said there was snark, and i would love it if you backed it up with evidence.  i don't remember it, and i was going to look for it myself, but the threads are 10, 5 and 4 pages each, and i decided the onus is on you since you make the claim.  What snark can we deem so bad that they should stop posting on the forum?  i remember those threads and don't recall anything all that terrible.
    That's fair enough, I didn't feel like searching for the thread on Mobile yesterday either while I was rushed for time.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71795/april-q-a-with-demiurge-will/p3
    Reactions about expert players at the company. Which led to...

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71915/the-demiurge-players-should-uncloak/p1
    Snark might not be the best term for this thread, but there were clearly some of the people acting in bad faith. Not to mention some of the demands about developers winning rewards.
    And there are also clearly some of the people acting in good faith. Some of the more vocally upset in that particular topic may also use discord I dont know. 

    This is the official forums. If some people are too far out of line like personally attacking others (including the devs)  then the responsibility is on the mods to shut that down. People can be quickly moderated for bad mouthing other players but it often feels like there is no moderation when people call the devs all manner of things. 

    If moderation is the issue then we need to have that addressed. It's just frustrating to know there is a larger developer participation on something that is not the official forum for the game.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2018
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    The more I read this thread the more I fear the following is going to happen.

    Brigby reads this and reports it up the D3 chain.
    D3 comes to Demi and says what gives and bans them going to Discord.
    They don't increase going here.
    Communication get's worse than it is already.

    They aren't obligated to communicate at all.  Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and take the morsels we get before they decide to just take their ball and go home.  Would I prefer they come here?  Yes.  But it hasn't happen in the 2.5 years I've been playing, I really don't expect it to change.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
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    ZeiramMR said:
    Spudgutter said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    tiomono said:
    ZeiramMR said:
    "Everybody treated Will and others with respect and we all were grateful for this,"

    There was snark about one thing in the last month that Will was active. More in other threads, but it was about something he said.
    So we just need to fill discord with snark so they come to the "official" forums?

    I refuse to believe there is zero snark on discord. This forum is where the game itself links us to for more information. There should not be more dev interaction on a 3rd party, fan run program or chat than on the official forums.
    I'm not on Discord and wouldn't know what the general tone is like. But I also never said anything about Discord in my post which is confusing as to why people are quoting my post like I did. I was just noting that some people did not stay respectful and he stopped answering in the Q&A thread after the reaction about "expert players at the company".
    correlation and causation.  we are discussing all the dev traffic on discord, and you mentioned snark took place in the other threads.  maybe more of a implication?  hard to describe with words.  maybe a jump to conclusion mat?

    anyway

    you said there was snark, and i would love it if you backed it up with evidence.  i don't remember it, and i was going to look for it myself, but the threads are 10, 5 and 4 pages each, and i decided the onus is on you since you make the claim.  What snark can we deem so bad that they should stop posting on the forum?  i remember those threads and don't recall anything all that terrible.
    That's fair enough, I didn't feel like searching for the thread on Mobile yesterday either while I was rushed for time.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71795/april-q-a-with-demiurge-will/p3
    Reactions about expert players at the company. Which led to...

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/71915/the-demiurge-players-should-uncloak/p1
    Snark might not be the best term for this thread, but there were clearly some of the people acting in bad faith. Not to mention some of the demands about developers winning rewards.
    Uhhhh, i disagree 

    Did you go through all 6 pages if that thread?  I did.  Sure, there are some bad arguments.   But there were also plenty of good ones.  And that is what was great about it!

    There was a dialogue. There were good (and bad) points from both sides.  It was awesome.  I changed my mind 3 different times.  You know what would have made it even better?  If we had an opinion/statement from the people we were discussing.  The devs should have nothing to fear with making statements because the majority of people just want *answers*, even if we might not agree with them.

    I am sick and tired of the excuse that the vocal minority gets what they want.  I made a similar statement in another thread, about the logic of not updating hp costs.  The claim being that "some vets" would want recompense. 

    Lets look at one of the bad faith posters from that thread, shall we?  97 comments from November 2017 until abruptly stopping in May 2018.  They may be a 1500+ day vet, but i doubt it.  That person helps sway the decision?   No, in my opinion.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
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    broll said:
    The more I read this thread the more I fear the following is going to happen.

    Brigby reads this and reports it up the D3 chain.
    D3 comes to Demi and says what gives and bans them going to Discord.
    They don't increase going here.
    Communication get's worse than it is already.

    They aren't obligated to communicate at all.  Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and take the morsels we get before they decide to just take their ball and go home.  Would I prefer they come here?  Yes.  But it hasn't happen in the 2.5 years I've been playing, I really don't expect it to change.
    ??????

    You were commenting in the April Q&A thread.  They do sometimes communicate with us.  You were there
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Spudgutter said:
    broll said:
    The more I read this thread the more I fear the following is going to happen.

    Brigby reads this and reports it up the D3 chain.
    D3 comes to Demi and says what gives and bans them going to Discord.
    They don't increase going here.
    Communication get's worse than it is already.

    They aren't obligated to communicate at all.  Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and take the morsels we get before they decide to just take their ball and go home.  Would I prefer they come here?  Yes.  But it hasn't happen in the 2.5 years I've been playing, I really don't expect it to change.
    ??????

    You were commenting in the April Q&A thread.  They do sometimes communicate with us.  You were there
    Outside of that one isolated incident when has it happened other than whoever the community manager and Tombstone?  There have been a few, but certainly not to the extent people are asking for.  The very fact that they tried to do it again and they couldn't get it going for more than a few weeks?  A month most, only further proves my point.

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