Do you think vaulting is a good system?

124

Comments

  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    Fightmastermpq said:
    broll said:

    Then why does the pro vaulting pro arguing about the semantics of what dillusion is club all seem to say multiple stores don't solve dillusion?  If they had several CP stores that each had the same number of characters and there for the same odds how does that not solve dillusion?
    They don't - can you link me to a comment where someone was advocating against more tokens?  Dilution is already solved.  Adding more token stores with more options would certainly appease the masses, I can't imagine anyone being against that.

    Here you go.
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Alsmir said:
    ....
    3. Player feedback and the main, easiest suggestion "vintage (or something) LTs" containing all the 4* characters, ignored time after time, after time.
    Instead we got insulting vintage heroics and daily (!) store that offers 1 cover for HP. To make it worse some people can buy it for 2500hp, others for 3600 hp.
    ...
    3.)  Bad ideas should be ignored.  Just because the forum doesn't understand what dilution is or why it's bad doesn't mean that we should all jump on this "fix" that effectively just reintroduces dilution in some new or modified token.

  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Starfury said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    broll said:

    Then why does the pro vaulting pro arguing about the semantics of what dillusion is club all seem to say multiple stores don't solve dillusion?  If they had several CP stores that each had the same number of characters and there for the same odds how does that not solve dillusion?
    They don't - can you link me to a comment where someone was advocating against more tokens?  Dilution is already solved.  Adding more token stores with more options would certainly appease the masses, I can't imagine anyone being against that.

    Here you go.
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Alsmir said:
    ....
    3. Player feedback and the main, easiest suggestion "vintage (or something) LTs" containing all the 4* characters, ignored time after time, after time.
    Instead we got insulting vintage heroics and daily (!) store that offers 1 cover for HP. To make it worse some people can buy it for 2500hp, others for 3600 hp.
    ...
    3.)  Bad ideas should be ignored.  Just because the forum doesn't understand what dilution is or why it's bad doesn't mean that we should all jump on this "fix" that effectively just reintroduces dilution in some new or modified token.

    Oh snap, you really nailed me on that one!

    I've said on several occasions that there is no harm in keeping the current LTs, and adding additional tokens that can be acquired with CP provided that the current reward structure of awarding Latest LTs remain in tact.  But that's not the "easiest suggestion" that I see discussed - most request that vaulted 4s be put back into classic LTs which is not a "solution" that I would support.

  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Starfury said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    broll said:

    Then why does the pro vaulting pro arguing about the semantics of what dillusion is club all seem to say multiple stores don't solve dillusion?  If they had several CP stores that each had the same number of characters and there for the same odds how does that not solve dillusion?
    They don't - can you link me to a comment where someone was advocating against more tokens?  Dilution is already solved.  Adding more token stores with more options would certainly appease the masses, I can't imagine anyone being against that.

    Here you go.
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Alsmir said:
    ....
    3. Player feedback and the main, easiest suggestion "vintage (or something) LTs" containing all the 4* characters, ignored time after time, after time.
    Instead we got insulting vintage heroics and daily (!) store that offers 1 cover for HP. To make it worse some people can buy it for 2500hp, others for 3600 hp.
    ...
    3.)  Bad ideas should be ignored.  Just because the forum doesn't understand what dilution is or why it's bad doesn't mean that we should all jump on this "fix" that effectively just reintroduces dilution in some new or modified token.

    That's really not what was just talked about a couple comments back...Adding a new token that will continue to be diluted is what your "gotcha" quote of fightmaster was talking about. This is the situation we have with "classic" 5* and why people have and will continue to voice their displeasure with how this is handled. Introducing a "vintage" LT with all of the 4* not in the latest 12 is just re-introducing dilution since that token will keep getting added to season after season, and again odds will decrease and people will keep complaining that they aren't making significant progress on their "favorite" characters (i.e. best 10 or whatever). 

    What they were talking about in the above quotation would be adding new tokens that had FIXED number of characters inside of it. If handled appropriately this would essentially end dilution in the sense that you would always have the same odds of pulling something in any given token, however you still have the issue of an ever-expanding roster of 4* to pick from and they would have to continue adding tokens to make sure they are all included. If it was one token that had a fixed number of rotating toons, the dilution comes in the form of having to wait longer and longer for your desired characters to come around. The sense I get from the forum community though, is that they wouldn't mind waiting as long as it meant they got to pick the characters they are drawing for.

    At some point I personally feel like too many choices is bad, but I can certainly understand why most of you would want to be able to spend your hard-earned (or bought) resources on the things you want the most. 

    Sorry for jumping all over the place but one more thing that I saw pop up in the thread...LTs are literally the only way to obtain 5* covers in this game (I'm ignoring direct cp purchase because 720 for one cover is just absurd), so understandably people are going to think of them more as their means to 5* as opposed to their means to 4* which are also obtainable in heroic/event/vault tokens as well as progression and placement rewards. Even though there are certainly many players that get most of their 4* covers from LT pulls, it is simply impossible to decouple the 5* aspect of the tokens. Call it a flaw in the design if you will. We've been needing a 4* only token for a long time, or at least a "heroic +" token that had only 3s and 4s. I expect we'll get it around the same time we see CL 10 roll out  :D
  • Neuromancer
    Neuromancer Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.
    Just give more vault options. Put every character in some kind of vault, then I can choose the vault that suits me at the time. Supply different currencies/tokens for the vaults D3 wants to focus on for the day/month/year aside from the latest (ie Legendary Avenger/Defender/Mutant/Villain Coin). Or, implement a vault rotation along the lines of DP Daily for the CL.
  • farlus
    farlus Posts: 119 Tile Toppler
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Vaulting allowed me to turn the corner on having a 4* roster much more rapidly - I've gone from 1 covered, champed 4* to 9 since - but I've also made zero progress on some characters that I would really like to have covered to offer better team composition with some of my characters and to try out new strategies. That's the main frustration - by the time I have covered some of those characters, if ever, they'll be so woefully underpowered due to power creep that they just won't be viable options anymore.

    I do feel like I've been able to be more competitive in 4* land by having most of my first 4* be some of the better, newer heroes, but I'm ultimately limited into seeing more of what the game has to offer because of vaulting. Some of my heroes are likely doomed to disuse because they'll never be covered until enough time has passed for me to naturally get 5-6 more covers through PvE progression / PvP progression / BH, which in all honesty will be years of time. 4* that are years old, like XFW, IW and Nick Fury just aren't useful anymore, and I imagine the same will be said for current heroes a couple of years from now.
  • mckauhu
    mckauhu Posts: 740 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.
    So you get only latest 12 4*s from the tokens and have to work really hard to get vintage 4*s. Hows that good? Imho also vintage 4*s should have a vault of their own. System is extremely good for new players but not good at all for those who have been playing this for nearly 3 years
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    Leave the vintage store up at all times and remove the 2 stars from the store, problem almost solved. Only problem with this solution is that it won't gouge people's pocketbooks. 
  • zodiac339
    zodiac339 Posts: 1,948 Chairperson of the Boards
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Wumpushunter said:
    Leave the vintage store up at all times and remove the 2 stars from the store, problem almost solved. Only problem with this solution is that it won't gouge people's pocketbooks. 
    You should know better than to suggest removing 2stars. It's just not going to happen.
  • Phillipes
    Phillipes Posts: 431 Mover and Shaker
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    One sentence:

    Vaulting needs to go.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,713 Chairperson of the Boards
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

    I'm going to point out something that I don't think I've seen as yet - while vaulting does slow down the progression of the older characters, it doesn't stop it entirely.  I did the math back in early March to see where my covers came from - the conclusion I came to was that about 2/3 of my 4* covers came from tokens, most of those from Legendary Tokens.  It might be different today, I'm not sure, and I feel safe in saying that the latest 12 come from Tokens at a higher %, but it gave me some hope at the time that I would still see my 4* roster progress.

    To degree it has, though a lot of that was Bonus Heroes, I still do see some covers come from other places.  Heck, I draw Kate from a PVE vault last week, which was nice - she was not-quite covered when they started the vaulting system, and was barely finished when she left the latest.

    I can do the breakdown again if people are interested.  Might not have the time this week, though.

  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    GrimSkald said:

    I'm going to point out something that I don't think I've seen as yet - while vaulting does slow down the progression of the older characters, it doesn't stop it entirely.  I did the math back in early March to see where my covers came from - the conclusion I came to was that about 2/3 of my 4* covers came from tokens, most of those from Legendary Tokens.  It might be different today, I'm not sure, and I feel safe in saying that the latest 12 come from Tokens at a higher %, but it gave me some hope at the time that I would still see my 4* roster progress.

    To degree it has, though a lot of that was Bonus Heroes, I still do see some covers come from other places.  Heck, I draw Kate from a PVE vault last week, which was nice - she was not-quite covered when they started the vaulting system, and was barely finished when she left the latest.

    I can do the breakdown again if people are interested.  Might not have the time this week, though.


    That's true, but the problem is that the latest 12 4*s are invading the other rewards to a pretty high degree, there seems to always be one in the taco vaults, the last few PvE rewards have had a good number of latest 4*s (all new character events have latest 4*)


    So I agree there are other sources than just token pulls for acquiring 4*s, only a fraction of those other sources can accurately be counted as a way to acquire retired characters (I'm sure someone can do the math, but I'd be surprised if the fraction was representative of the whole 4* pool, the featured 12 seem to appear way more often than just 25% of the time)


    Your best argument here (IMO) is that the covers needed to champion retired heroes never grows if you are keeping up with the treadmill of covering all new heroes before they retire...  that way its not a loosing battle in terms of rate...  but the gotcha here is in the champion system...  Players new to the 4* tier will have a far harder time getting higher champion levels, the vaulting system reduces covers for retired champions to that fraction of a fraction figure you get from rewards...  giving a seemingly insurmountable edge to the vets that got higher level champions when it was more easily possible.



  • amusingfoo1
    amusingfoo1 Posts: 597 Critical Contributor
    I think the system is, on balance, good.  Which is definitely not to say that it couldn't be improved.  But I know that I have been covering new characters faster, and getting to higher levels of champion rewards, faster.  It kind of sucks that the vaulted characters are essentially fossilized, but the newer ones accumulate really quickly.

    Only the latest two to make it into rotation are below 300, and I have five vaulted ones below those two already (eight below the higher of the two).

    So while I'm not thrilled with things, I think they are generally better.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    The system is inherently unfair to newer players. All the people with all the old 3s and 4s champed cant really know how bad it is not to be able to play the entire game because they locked up characters behind a steel vault door and then require that tiny kitty character to progress in DDQ or PVE. It's very frustrating to say the least. It's like they don't really care about attracting new people at all.   Either give us a valid way to get the vaulted characters , retire them all from the game or remove them from the essential list. This is the ONLY way to be truly fair while still vaulting.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Wumpushunter said:
    The system is inherently unfair to newer players. All the people with all the old 3s and 4s champed cant really know how bad it is not to be able to play the entire game because they locked up characters behind a steel vault door and then require that tiny kitty character to progress in DDQ or PVE. It's very frustrating to say the least. It's like they don't really care about attracting new people at all.   Either give us a valid way to get the vaulted characters , retire them all from the game or remove them from the essential list. This is the ONLY way to be truly fair while still vaulting.
    No, this is an absurd requirement.  We were all in the same boat (and still are) with every character release.  If you wanted to use that character in the essential node for their first PvE then you busted your **** in the release event for them, and if you couldn't get them there you picked them up as a progression a sub or two in to the next event.  We've all done that, and this is no different for new players as it was for us the first time through.  These characters were never available in tokens anyway until the season after their first event - so vaulting really doesn't change this mechanic.

    I will say that it sucks for new players trying to complete crashes for vaulted characters, but....so what.  There should be some expected catch-up period for new players and this is just one such instance.

    Finally - they have given you a way to get the vaulted characters....bonus heroes.  If you are expecting a way to get ALL the vaulted characters well you can't.  Because that is precisely what the old broken system was - all the characters all the time, and the addition of new characters every 2 weeks was causing the massive dilution problem that we were seeing.

    The total number of covers you get is fixed across systems.  Under the old system they were evenly applied and we all agreed that was bad.  So any new system that DOESN'T provide access to some subset of characters is inherently better than the old system that we all said was bad, yet here you are asking for access to all characters.  In an effort to provide some access to those characters they gave us BH which is a small percentage to be sure, but it's known, actually adds 5% to the total number of covers that you get, and prevents older characters from being completely inaccessible.  So if you do need a couple more covers for a particular character to do their Crash or if you missed their release and need them for the next event then you can use BH to help with that which is way better than the old days where missing a character release meant you were at the hands of RNGesus to even get that first cover.

    Vaulting is far more appealing to newer players as they can actually target characters that they really want with BH, and start competing at the 4* tier much faster, compared to the old system where it was taking literally years to cover 4s and who even knows if you would ever get a cover for any particular character.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,713 Chairperson of the Boards
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    MissChinch said:
    GrimSkald said:

    I'm going to point out something that I don't think I've seen as yet - while vaulting does slow down the progression of the older characters, it doesn't stop it entirely.  I did the math back in early March to see where my covers came from - the conclusion I came to was that about 2/3 of my 4* covers came from tokens, most of those from Legendary Tokens.  It might be different today, I'm not sure, and I feel safe in saying that the latest 12 come from Tokens at a higher %, but it gave me some hope at the time that I would still see my 4* roster progress.

    To degree it has, though a lot of that was Bonus Heroes, I still do see some covers come from other places.  Heck, I draw Kate from a PVE vault last week, which was nice - she was not-quite covered when they started the vaulting system, and was barely finished when she left the latest.

    I can do the breakdown again if people are interested.  Might not have the time this week, though.


    That's true, but the problem is that the latest 12 4*s are invading the other rewards to a pretty high degree, there seems to always be one in the taco vaults, the last few PvE rewards have had a good number of latest 4*s (all new character events have latest 4*)


    So I agree there are other sources than just token pulls for acquiring 4*s, only a fraction of those other sources can accurately be counted as a way to acquire retired characters (I'm sure someone can do the math, but I'd be surprised if the fraction was representative of the whole 4* pool, the featured 12 seem to appear way more often than just 25% of the time)


    Your best argument here (IMO) is that the covers needed to champion retired heroes never grows if you are keeping up with the treadmill of covering all new heroes before they retire...  that way its not a loosing battle in terms of rate...  but the gotcha here is in the champion system...  Players new to the 4* tier will have a far harder time getting higher champion levels, the vaulting system reduces covers for retired champions to that fraction of a fraction figure you get from rewards...  giving a seemingly insurmountable edge to the vets that got higher level champions when it was more easily possible.



    Sure, having a token pool with all the characters allows you to level your whole Roster fairly evenly - the problem is that "fairly evenly" gets slower with each new release.  If they hadn't implemented vaulting, my 4*s would, on average, be just a handful of levels higher (I did the math, and IIRC that number was 4.)  In it's place I now have every character fully covered other than Cloak and Dagger, and I have 9 covers on them.  It's a trade-off, but I think the latter is better for the game all in all.  It means that newer players will be able to get some 4*s more easily, rather than having 4-5 covers on every single one.

    As others have pointed out, it's bad for the Crash, and it's not great when they're required, but getting the 4* out of progression is always doable if you have a good 3* Roster, I think, so it is possible to get some covers for the older characters.  If it is characters they really want, they can set them as Bonus Heroes.

  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    Another suck it up, I like it, so you have to reply. Well  i don't and never will. Every  months from now till they change something expect a vaulting topic from me or a reply to an existing topic Opinions are like tiny kitty holes, I'm not changing mine and I won't let them quietly let the subject die.  Fix it or straight out tell us this is how it will be from now on
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    GrimSkald said:
    MissChinch said:
    GrimSkald said:

    I'm going to point out something that I don't think I've seen as yet - while vaulting does slow down the progression of the older characters, it doesn't stop it entirely.  I did the math back in early March to see where my covers came from - the conclusion I came to was that about 2/3 of my 4* covers came from tokens, most of those from Legendary Tokens.  It might be different today, I'm not sure, and I feel safe in saying that the latest 12 come from Tokens at a higher %, but it gave me some hope at the time that I would still see my 4* roster progress.

    To degree it has, though a lot of that was Bonus Heroes, I still do see some covers come from other places.  Heck, I draw Kate from a PVE vault last week, which was nice - she was not-quite covered when they started the vaulting system, and was barely finished when she left the latest.

    I can do the breakdown again if people are interested.  Might not have the time this week, though.


    That's true, but the problem is that the latest 12 4*s are invading the other rewards to a pretty high degree, there seems to always be one in the taco vaults, the last few PvE rewards have had a good number of latest 4*s (all new character events have latest 4*)


    So I agree there are other sources than just token pulls for acquiring 4*s, only a fraction of those other sources can accurately be counted as a way to acquire retired characters (I'm sure someone can do the math, but I'd be surprised if the fraction was representative of the whole 4* pool, the featured 12 seem to appear way more often than just 25% of the time)


    Your best argument here (IMO) is that the covers needed to champion retired heroes never grows if you are keeping up with the treadmill of covering all new heroes before they retire...  that way its not a loosing battle in terms of rate...  but the gotcha here is in the champion system...  Players new to the 4* tier will have a far harder time getting higher champion levels, the vaulting system reduces covers for retired champions to that fraction of a fraction figure you get from rewards...  giving a seemingly insurmountable edge to the vets that got higher level champions when it was more easily possible.



    Sure, having a token pool with all the characters allows you to level your whole Roster fairly evenly - the problem is that "fairly evenly" gets slower with each new release.  If they hadn't implemented vaulting, my 4*s would, on average, be just a handful of levels higher (I did the math, and IIRC that number was 4.)  In it's place I now have every character fully covered other than Cloak and Dagger, and I have 9 covers on them.  It's a trade-off, but I think the latter is better for the game all in all.  It means that newer players will be able to get some 4*s more easily, rather than having 4-5 covers on every single one.

    As others have pointed out, it's bad for the Crash, and it's not great when they're required, but getting the 4* out of progression is always doable if you have a good 3* Roster, I think, so it is possible to get some covers for the older characters.  If it is characters they really want, they can set them as Bonus Heroes.


    That was in response to you mentioning you may check to see where your covers came from regarding the slow progress of covering retired characters...  While interesting to see what 4* covers came from rewards and not heroics or legendary pulls, the featured 12 are populating reward covers, progression covers and event vault covers to a high degree, so only a fraction of the covers obtained in these manners can be honestly used to cover retired characters.


    Ex: if 1/3rd of your 4* covers came from rewards and event vaults, but half of the 4*s offered there are still in the featured 12, then you would only be looking at 1/6th of your 4* cover accumulation being applied to retired heroes (75%+ of the 4* tier).

  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)
    Wumpushunter said:
    Another suck it up, I like it, so you have to reply. Well  i don't and never will. Every  months from now till they change something expect a vaulting topic from me or a reply to an existing topic Opinions are like tiny kitty holes, I'm not changing mine and I won't let them quietly let the subject die.  Fix it or straight out tell us this is how it will be from now on
    This is how it will be from now on.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Wumpushunter said:
    Another suck it up, I like it, so you have to reply. Well  i don't and never will. Every  months from now till they change something expect a vaulting topic from me or a reply to an existing topic Opinions are like tiny kitty holes, I'm not changing mine and I won't let them quietly let the subject die.  Fix it or straight out tell us this is how it will be from now on
    This is how it will be from now on.

    ...if only that came from a D3/Demi person...  instead what we got from the lead designer was "We'll change it if enough of you complain loudly enough"  ...which (I think was a mistake on his part) pretty much incites more complaints.  

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