Do you think vaulting is a good system?

Jaedenkaal

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

MissChinch said:

...instead what we got from the lead designer was "We'll change it if enough of you complain loudly enough"  ...which (I think was a mistake on his part) pretty much incites more complaints.  

If the Heroes for Hire store 'update' is any indication, the feedback that Demi gets may have nothing to do with how every single person on the forum feels. 

Given that his answers were geared for this forum, I agree that the answer was probably a mistake, although it was the 8th question and did pretty much require a yes or no answer. And "No" would have been equally silly since there's always a non-zero change that they could, some time in the future, change their mind.

Anyways, they've heard you. Move on.

MissChinch

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

Jaedenkaal said:

MissChinch said:

...instead what we got from the lead designer was "We'll change it if enough of you complain loudly enough"  ...which (I think was a mistake on his part) pretty much incites more complaints.  

If the Heroes for Hire store 'update' is any indication, the feedback that Demi gets may have nothing to do with how every single person on the forum feels. 

Given that his answers were geared for this forum, I agree that the answer was probably a mistake, although it was the 8th question and did pretty much require a yes or no answer. And "No" would have been equally silly since there's always a non-zero change that they could, some time in the future, change their mind.

Anyways, they've heard you. Move on.

The wording of the request for more feedback is what I think did more harm than good is all...  They had the opportunity to stave some of this off, instead it was the proverbial gas on the fire headshaker...

Beer40

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

MissChinch said:

Jaedenkaal said:

MissChinch said:

...instead what we got from the lead designer was "We'll change it if enough of you complain loudly enough"  ...which (I think was a mistake on his part) pretty much incites more complaints.  

If the Heroes for Hire store 'update' is any indication, the feedback that Demi gets may have nothing to do with how every single person on the forum feels. 

Given that his answers were geared for this forum, I agree that the answer was probably a mistake, although it was the 8th question and did pretty much require a yes or no answer. And "No" would have been equally silly since there's always a non-zero change that they could, some time in the future, change their mind.

Anyways, they've heard you. Move on.

The wording of the request for more feedback is what I think did more harm than good is all...  They had the opportunity to stave some of this off, instead it was the proverbial gas on the fire headshaker...

Maybe its their hobby to read this stuff instead of doing the QC work necessary to have clean(er) releases? I much prefer to read the forums over work.

mckauhu

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

My solution to this problem would be that devs should make simply 4* drop rate bigger as it is now and keep the vaulting and let bonus heroes be more frequent since I haven't got nearly at all 4* bonus heroes since the vaulting came. Especially MORE 4* bonus heroes to cover vintage characters!

Fightmastermpq

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

mckauhu said:

My solution to this problem would be that devs should make simply 4* drop rate bigger as it is now and keep the vaulting and let bonus heroes be more frequent since I haven't got nearly at all 4* bonus heroes since the vaulting came. Especially MORE 4* bonus heroes to cover vintage characters!

Or better yet, just give everyone what cover they want whenever they want it!  Can't believe no one realized that dilution could be solved by just giving away more covers for free!!!

mohio

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

Fightmastermpq said:

mckauhu said:

My solution to this problem would be that devs should make simply 4* drop rate bigger as it is now and keep the vaulting and let bonus heroes be more frequent since I haven't got nearly at all 4* bonus heroes since the vaulting came. Especially MORE 4* bonus heroes to cover vintage characters!

Or better yet, just give everyone what cover they want whenever they want it!  Can't believe no one realized that dilution could be solved by just giving away more covers for free!!!

Yes opening the floodgates on 4* covers would probably do more harm than good, and also is never going to happen, but the level of snark here is a little unwarranted. There is precedent for this suggestion, as they have done it several times in the past, first when 3* dilution was becoming a problem and again later to raise 4* drop rates to help ease dilution fairly early on. There hasn't been any movement in this area in quite a while, so it's not unreasonable to ask for it, or think that it's a possibility.

Ultimately though, it's just a band-aid, and not a real solution to the problem, which is what Fightmaster is getting at - sarcastically extrapolating the suggestion to its ultimate end. 

MissChinch

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

mohio said:

Fightmastermpq said:

mckauhu said:

My solution to this problem would be that devs should make simply 4* drop rate bigger as it is now and keep the vaulting and let bonus heroes be more frequent since I haven't got nearly at all 4* bonus heroes since the vaulting came. Especially MORE 4* bonus heroes to cover vintage characters!

Or better yet, just give everyone what cover they want whenever they want it!  Can't believe no one realized that dilution could be solved by just giving away more covers for free!!!

Yes opening the floodgates on 4* covers would probably do more harm than good, and also is never going to happen, but the level of snark here is a little unwarranted. There is precedent for this suggestion, as they have done it several times in the past, first when 3* dilution was becoming a problem and again later to raise 4* drop rates to help ease dilution fairly early on. There hasn't been any movement in this area in quite a while, so it's not unreasonable to ask for it, or think that it's a possibility.

Ultimately though, it's just a band-aid, and not a real solution to the problem, which is what Fightmaster is getting at - sarcastically extrapolating the suggestion to its ultimate end. 

Relative to a year ago the floodgates on 4* covers has already been opened.  The constant trend that can be counted on with D3/Demi is that resources will get easier to obtain, 4* covers have become easier to obtain and will continue to become easier to obtain over the long run. 

The exact same thing happened with 3*s...  the degree to which more covers in the 4* tier will break things is dependent on how long D3/Demi will wait before transitioning people to 5*s and beyond.  The reason we can now get 5+ 3* covers a day with low effort and have it not be damaging is because the 3->4* transition was made easier and theres a 5* tier available for those who want to pay for exclusivity.

Wumpushunter

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

can the next poll indicate how many champed 4s and mostly covered 5 stars the respondent has so we can ignore those that have all the vaulted characters as they really have no issue at all with vaulting and have no penalty.

SpringSoldier

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

If the devs would add another Vintage Champions vault- which would also cost 20 cp and would have only the vaulted 4*, I think most people would be happy. Yes, that vault would be seriously diluted, but you also have the choice of buying latest legends or classic legends and you'd get the newer characters much easier.

I, for one, prefer a slow progress, but hording all my beloved characters (the heroes, at least). I know I'm in the minority and I understand that others prefer to have any champed 4* as opposed to having more characters at a playable level, however such a change would give both types of players a choice.

And it shouldn't be making any less money for the devs. More characters= more need for slots; more characters that need just 1-2 covers to become epic= more sales in the Heroes for Hire store. Otherwise, most new-comers wouldn't spend 3600 hp to get one cover of a character if there are little to no chances of getting another. The ones doing most of the buying, I suspect were those that had enough covers and wanted an extra one to champion or to improve.

Of course, I also have the possibility of buying vintage heroic tokens and that would kill this store. I do suspect however that this store is already kind of dead because, let's face it, it's the worst: diluted number of character; most likely you'll win another 2*; if you're lucky you might win another 3*- which are already easily attainable through DDQ and every other event; only if you are really really lucky, you might earn one 4* cover that probably isn't even the character you wanted. All while you can easily earn covers of the newer 4* through cp and PVE/PVP events. Nobody wants to hoard superheroes that badly.

Alsmir

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

Fightmastermpq said:

Wumpushunter said:

The system is inherently unfair to newer players. All the people with all the old 3s and 4s champed cant really know how bad it is not to be able to play the entire game because they locked up characters behind a steel vault door and then require that tiny kitty character to progress in DDQ or PVE. It's very frustrating to say the least. It's like they don't really care about attracting new people at all.   Either give us a valid way to get the vaulted characters , retire them all from the game or remove them from the essential list. This is the ONLY way to be truly fair while still vaulting.

No, this is an absurd requirement.  We were all in the same boat (and still are) with every character release.  If you wanted to use that character in the essential node for their first PvE then you busted your tinykitty in the release event for them, and if you couldn't get them there you picked them up as a progression a sub or two in to the next event.  We've all done that, and this is no different for new players as it was for us the first time through.  These characters were never available in tokens anyway until the season after their first event - so vaulting really doesn't change this mechanic.

I will say that it sucks for new players trying to complete crashes for vaulted characters, but....so what.  There should be some expected catch-up period for new players and this is just one such instance.

Finally - they have given you a way to get the vaulted characters....bonus heroes.  If you are expecting a way to get ALL the vaulted characters well you can't.  Because that is precisely what the old broken system was - all the characters all the time, and the addition of new characters every 2 weeks was causing the massive dilution problem that we were seeing.

The total number of covers you get is fixed across systems.  Under the old system they were evenly applied and we all agreed that was bad.  So any new system that DOESN'T provide access to some subset of characters is inherently better than the old system that we all said was bad, yet here you are asking for access to all characters.  In an effort to provide some access to those characters they gave us BH which is a small percentage to be sure, but it's known, actually adds 5% to the total number of covers that you get, and prevents older characters from being completely inaccessible.  So if you do need a couple more covers for a particular character to do their Crash or if you missed their release and need them for the next event then you can use BH to help with that which is way better than the old days where missing a character release meant you were at the hands of RNGesus to even get that first cover.

Vaulting is far more appealing to newer players as they can actually target characters that they really want with BH, and start competing at the 4* tier much faster, compared to the old system where it was taking literally years to cover 4s and who even knows if you would ever get a cover for any particular character.

Boy, do I miss the ignore option on the forums.

Okay, here we go:

1. I have every single vaulted 4* with a single exception - Miles. I didn't bust tinykitty for them. I earned War Machine covers during release event (that was the first PvE even that I played in MPQ). I was gladly skipping release events, that were always grindfests and I earned those characters eventually from LTs. New players are stuck right now.

2. The expected catch-up period got much worse for new players. They can cover their first 4* faster but vaulted ones are pretty much dead for them. New casual players should just quit immidiately, because they won't cover most of the 4* before they leave tokens and will be stuck in endless loop.

3. Bonus heroes on average provide 1 extra cover per 20 pulls. It takes 260 pulls to complete a single vaulted 4*, while you make zero progress for other vaulted ones. In that old "broken" system 260 pulls on average would give you 6 covers for every 4* available.

"Under the old system they were evenly applied and we all agreed that was bad."

That's a prime example of pulling an argument out of your you-know-what.

4. Vaulting helped some people, for others it was a powerfull kick into nuts. That's basically what you should know before entering discussion.
It's totally natural that the second group is pissed and wants some way to go back to the old system. Again, new token (with all vaulted 4*) would make both groups happy. You could either accelarate your progress of getting first 4*, or cover all characters evenly.

Fightmastermpq

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Dauthi

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

Alsmir said:

Boy, do I miss the ignore option on the forums.

Okay, here we go:

1. I have every single vaulted 4* with a single exception - Miles. I didn't bust tinykitty for them. I earned War Machine covers during release event (that was the first PvE even that I played in MPQ). I was gladly skipping release events, that were always grindfests and I earned those characters eventually from LTs. New players are stuck right now.

2. The expected catch-up period got much worse for new players. They can cover their first 4* faster but vaulted ones are pretty much dead for them. New casual players should just quit immidiately, because they won't cover most of the 4* before they leave tokens and will be stuck in endless loop.

3. Bonus heroes on average provide 1 extra cover per 20 pulls. It takes 260 pulls to complete a single vaulted 4*, while you make zero progress for other vaulted ones. In that old "broken" system 260 pulls on average would give you 6 covers for every 4* available.

"Under the old system they were evenly applied and we all agreed that was bad."

That's a prime example of pulling an argument out of your you-know-what.

4. Vaulting helped some people, for others it was a powerfull kick into nuts. That's basically what you should know before entering discussion.
It's totally natural that the second group is pissed and wants some way to go back to the old system. Again, new token (with all vaulted 4*) would make both groups happy. You could either accelarate your progress of getting first 4*, or cover all characters evenly.

Great post, this is spot on for how I feel as well, and it seems we were probably in a similar boat. The old system wasn't great, but vaulting was like throwing gas on the the fire for a lot of us. I would rather progression be slow than be fast with the guarantee you will hit a brick wall eventually.

My biggest concern is towards casual players who missed previous 4 stars, and will be lucky to champ a few 4*s before they are gone, and if you play casual good luck with using bonus heroes to get anywhere.

Alsmir

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

Fightmastermpq said:

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks, that actually helps. I wasn't aware that ignore function is back.

Bloody_Marvel

I'd like to see a Vintage Legendary for CP off season to coincide with Vintage Heroic.

That would give players the option to hoard CP to draw classic 4*s if they wish. The Bonus Hero feature is nice, but it can't possibly keep up with the current legendary heroes.

Dotproduct

All I know is that I have a hoard of about 338k iso (after spending about 250k) and no where to spend it on due to the vaulting and change to standard tokens.

Fightmastermpq

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

Dotproduct said:

All I know is that I have a hoard of about 338k iso (after spending about 250k) and no where to spend it on due to the vaulting and change to standard tokens.

Give it time, that is a GREAT problem to have.

mckauhu

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

Fightmastermpq said:

mckauhu said:

My solution to this problem would be that devs should make simply 4* drop rate bigger as it is now and keep the vaulting and let bonus heroes be more frequent since I haven't got nearly at all 4* bonus heroes since the vaulting came. Especially MORE 4* bonus heroes to cover vintage characters!

Or better yet, just give everyone what cover they want whenever they want it!  Can't believe no one realized that dilution could be solved by just giving away more covers for free!!!

No way man. Just more vintage heroics which are nearly impossible to get now. Or do we have to be copy of each others rosters with this system?