Do you think vaulting is a good system?

GrimSkald

So it's been two and a half months since they implemented the "vaulting" system for tokens - giving you a limited pool of characters that the RNG will give you rather than the full pool.  This was intended to solve the problem of token dilution.  Bonus Heroes was clearly intended to offset it, but let's leave the Bonus Heroes system aside for a moment as it doesn't really affect the main question.

When the system was implemented, a lot of people had very strong opinions about it.  It's been ten weeks, though, a good amount of time for people to get used to it and actually feel the impact it's had on their rosters.  What do you think?

GrimSkald

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

To elaborate on why the old poll was closed - it was pointed out to me that the phrasing was pretty negative all around.  Ironically, I had a positive opinion on the system myself, but to contradict that bias I probably went a bit too far into the negative side.  Ducky and I had a good conversation about it, so I'm posting a new poll with different phrasing and a bit less granularity (the old poll probably had too many options.)  Please select the option that is closest to how you feel - e.g. if you hate vaulting and don't think token dilution is a problem, take option 3.

lpearl

I liked how the 5*s were split, but also liked how all 4*s were available from both Legendary tokens

Nepenthe

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

I think vaulting works at its​ stated goal of letting people cover new characters faster. I still think, as I said on day 1 of the change, that there needs to be an option to buy legendary tokens that aren't just the latest 12.  Whether they're diluted with all covers, with all minus the newest 12, or multiple tokens with different segments of the hero pool - just make some option available so the choice is in the players' hands.

Orion

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

As a vet, I think the pros of vaulting outweigh the cons.  I have all of the 4*s champed except the 3 newest ones, so I was able to overcome the initial ISO needs most of us had.  The bonus hero mechanic enabled my RHulk to jump about 20 levels to be my highest leveled 4*.  For those that were worried about missing out on high-level champ rewards, 5 of my top 10 highest leveled 4* come from the latest 12 now.  And that number is only going to increase as I pull more 4* covers.

But the system could definitely be tweaked too.  If they increased the number of 4*s available to say, 16, then 4* transitioners would have more time to actually finish those characters.  Plus vets would have more time to get those characters into the 300+ level area to get the better champ rewards.

The more obvious tweak would be to put all of the vaulted characters into the Classic Legendary token.  That way you can choose which pool to pull from.  I know it's been mentioned a bunch of times, but I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

GrimSkald

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

Orion said:

As a vet, I think the pros of vaulting outweigh the cons.  I have all of the 4*s champed except the 3 newest ones, so I was able to overcome the initial ISO needs most of us had.  The bonus hero mechanic enabled my RHulk to jump about 20 levels to be my highest leveled 4*.  For those that were worried about missing out on high-level champ rewards, 5 of my top 10 highest leveled 4* come from the latest 12 now.  And that number is only going to increase as I pull more 4* covers.

But the system could definitely be tweaked too.  If they increased the number of 4*s available to say, 16, then 4* transitioners would have more time to actually finish those characters.  Plus vets would have more time to get those characters into the 300+ level area to get the better champ rewards.

The more obvious tweak would be to put all of the vaulted characters into the Classic Legendary token.  That way you can choose which pool to pull from.  I know it's been mentioned a bunch of times, but I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

I believe the last item contradicts their philosophy toward the "classic" and "latest" token pools.  The tokens are identical for the 4* - the difference is that you pay a 5 CP have a chance of drawing the latest 3 5*s.  Since 4*s aren't really the point of the Legendary tokens, they don't want to make a major change there.  Should they?  I don't know, myself.  It would be nice to be able to draw the older 4*s, but I suspect which 4* pool each token drew from would not particularly influence where I draw - I draw Legendaries to get 5*s...

Everything else I agree with completely.  The old system benefited me more than others, I think - I was generally able to fully cover a 4* within a few months of their release.  I fully realize, though, that this particular model does not sustain itself very well and they had to do something about token dilution.  I've pretty much caught up on the Iso front (my 2* roster is still recovering, but I haven't made that a priority,) and now I can play with the new characters a month or two earlier.

JHawkInc

Why do people always put opinions as qualifiers on poll options?

I think vaulting is bad, and I think it should be replaced.

But it would be a lie to say it has hurt my progress in the game.

Vaulting works, short-term, but it is the long-term health of the game I'm concerned about.

MissChinch

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

Prior to vaulting, the best way to make meaningful progress on 5*s was to pull latest legends.  I could do so and be assured that I also had a chance of pulling a cover for any 4*s I'd have championed when I was ready to pull the hoard.

The day vaulting was instituted I lost the ability to use my limited resource (CP) in the most efficient manner possible to make 5* progress while also continuing to work on the entire 4* tier.  Tweaking classics wont fix that.

I'd feel better about the change if they came out and said that the vaulting mechanic was supposed to introduce the concept of a choice, you choose to progress on the 5* tier at the cost of the 4* tier, or you choose to progress on the 4* tier at the cost of the 5* tier.  The way it was actually rolled out looks like like this is an unintended (possibly positive, possibly negative) side-effect.

The fact that the bonus hero justification applied when talking about an effective way of covering retired characters magically hits all the points that they claim vaulting is targeted at addressing (newer players would get to cover a 4* character more quickly, it would be one of the new ones if they choose, it would get them into the 4* tier more quickly etc...)  and yet bonus heroes never even seemed to be considered as a mechanism on its own, has not generated any goodwill on my part for the vaulting debacle.  Bonus heroes are either a good mechanism for covering a character or they aren't, its not dependent on what case you want to make or what specific hero you want covered...

   

GrimSkald

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

JHawkInc said:

Why do people always put opinions as qualifiers on poll options?

I think vaulting is bad, and I think it should be replaced.

But it would be a lie to say it has hurt my progress in the game.

Vaulting works, short-term, but it is the long-term health of the game I'm concerned about.

Fair point, which is why I said you should chose the option closest.  I could have said "or"  I suppose.

MissChinch

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

GrimSkald said:

JHawkInc said:

Why do people always put opinions as qualifiers on poll options?

I think vaulting is bad, and I think it should be replaced.

But it would be a lie to say it has hurt my progress in the game.

Vaulting works, short-term, but it is the long-term health of the game I'm concerned about.

Fair point, which is why I said you should chose the option closest.  I could have said "or"  I suppose.

survey spammers address things like this in the format of "On a scale of 1 to 5 how pleased are you with vaulting"

That said, I thought both your surveys were good, far exceeding the internet forum standard

Fightmastermpq

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

Orion said:

As a vet, I think the pros of vaulting outweigh the cons.  I have all of the 4*s champed except the 3 newest ones, so I was able to overcome the initial ISO needs most of us had.  The bonus hero mechanic enabled my RHulk to jump about 20 levels to be my highest leveled 4*.  For those that were worried about missing out on high-level champ rewards, 5 of my top 10 highest leveled 4* come from the latest 12 now.  And that number is only going to increase as I pull more 4* covers.

But the system could definitely be tweaked too.  If they increased the number of 4*s available to say, 16, then 4* transitioners would have more time to actually finish those characters.  Plus vets would have more time to get those characters into the 300+ level area to get the better champ rewards.

The more obvious tweak would be to put all of the vaulted characters into the Classic Legendary token.  That way you can choose which pool to pull from.  I know it's been mentioned a bunch of times, but I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

It hasn't happened yet because it ties progress in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  And you don't get to choose because LTs rewarded are Latest only.  

carrion_pigeons

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

Vaulting is important for tokens, I think.  But the current system doesn't really solve dilution in terms of versatility.  When a Crash comes around for a vaulted character I will never bother favoriting and can't win (for example, Thing), that becomes clear.  The game's got a few places that really punish you for not having had an advanced enough roster before vaulting happened, and they're only going to get worse with time as the list of vaulted characters grows.

Vaulted characters should have a completely non-random way to achieve champ status.  The Heroes for Hire store is actually not a terrible idea for that, except that it doesn't go far enough.  If you could buy all the covers up to champ status for vaulted characters through HfH, at once, for 2500 HP per cover, then people wouldn't have to worry about having several dozen roster slots going to waste, potentially forever, while they wait to get lucky enough to win covers in events or via bonus heroes.

TiberiusKhan

Vaulting of some kind should be done, but this particular system needs some major changes to work.

Vaulting of some kind is probably the solution to the dilution issue. I never would have champed Gwenpool ( my first 4*!!! ) without it. However limiting the availability to the "Latest 12" seems arbitrary and shortsighted. If we had a rotating mix of say 20 available 4* characters that changed each season it would reduce the dilution issue, give players a chance to collect and use good "classic" characters as well as keep up with the latest. Maybe the mix is half latest and half classics with the focus on the essentials for PvE that season. And while they are at it crank up bonus heroes chances because the current ratio seems to only favor hoarding. That's my 2 cents at least.

broll

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

I voted entirely new.  Vaulting a has a few advantages but the disadvantages are worse for all but the most established rosters IMO.  Any fix needs to involve making the 'vaulted' 4*s available from a CP vault or a pick who your 12 vaulted are type system.

Vhailorx

Adding this system of vaulting on top of the existing champ/featured/crash structure of the game creates an unnecessary tension.

Demi needs to decide: do you want to push us to chase new characters, or incentivize slow steady progress with a deep roster?  (Or at the very least make both viable options.)  The current system wants players to do both, but really only allows us to chase new 4*s and 5*s.  

broll

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

GrimSkald said:

I believe the last item contradicts their philosophy toward the "classic" and "latest" token pools.  The tokens are identical for the 4* - the difference is that you pay a 5 CP have a chance of drawing the latest 3 5*s.  Since 4*s aren't really the point of the Legendary tokens, they don't want to make a major change there.  

Bold added for emphasis.

They aren't?  You realize there are portions of the game that don't even want 5*s?  This statement is out of touch with the reality of all but the top 1-5% of players.

Pants1000

The system is good - it actually allows me to cover characters in a reasonable time and has benefited my roster. (This option doens't preclude minor tweaks to the system.)

I liked the first poll options better.

Anyway, I think vaulting has some faults, but it helped me more than it hurt.

I voted that I am happy with vaulting, but some tweaks would make it even better.  

broll

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

Orion said:

The more obvious tweak would be to put all of the vaulted characters into the Classic Legendary token.  That way you can choose which pool to pull from.  I know it's been mentioned a bunch of times, but I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

The only answers I have here are:
1.  They don't want to make the Whales mad.
2.  They made changes to the code that make this more difficult than it sounds.
3.  They are too suborn to admit they made a mistake.
4.  They find far more value in milking money out of their self-imposed demand for these characters.

broll

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

GrimSkald said:

 e.g. if you hate vaulting and don't think token dilution is a problem, take option 3.

No offense, but this wording is slanted just as hard the other way.  Hating vaulting does not equal token dillution is not a problem.  That would be like saying the only way to handle a skin rash on your hand is to lop your arm off.

Dormammu

I didn't participate in the poll because if you're going to ask a YES or NO question, you should have YES or NO choices for answers. Let people elaborate in their comments. With the answers provided in the poll, your question should have been 'does vaulting solve dilution?'

Do I think vaulting is a good system? No. It drastically cuts my progress from 75% of the 4-star covers.

Do I think vaulting solves character dilution? No. It drastically cuts my progress from 75% of the 4-star covers.

None of the things implemented since vaulting, which were meant to solve my issue, are helping - classic heroic tokens have pitiful odds, bonus heroes have pitiful odds, and heroes for hire is too expensive.

MissChinch

I don't think vaulting is the solution to character dillution - it has hindered my progress in the game. The Devs should persue a completely different solution.

broll said:

Orion said:

The more obvious tweak would be to put all of the vaulted characters into the Classic Legendary token.  That way you can choose which pool to pull from.  I know it's been mentioned a bunch of times, but I really don't understand why it hasn't happened yet.

The only answers I have here are:
1.  They don't want to make the Whales mad.
2.  They made changes to the code that make this more difficult than it sounds.
3.  They are too suborn to admit they made a mistake.
4.  They find far more value in milking money out of their self-imposed demand for these characters.

I kinda agree its got to be one of the 4, but I don't see it, what they're saying the goal of vaulting is, and the method they chose to go about implementing it is a head-scratcher...

1 - I agree they don't want to make em mad...  Vaulting provides a massive advantage for the very top end that are pulling down 6+ 4*s in that they can assure they get all new 4*s to 370 before they retire...   That's really the only way I see to factor whales into it... as they don't need help stomping out those hit hardest by vaulting that are only pulling down 1 4* every other day.

2 - At one point they were throwing stores of the very same format at us, character specific vaults etc...  all using the same mechanics and UI, yet they don't put out an alternative store that everyone is clamoring for, instead they create one that is different from all the other stores in the HfH store that purposely doesn't do what the vast majority of all these complaints want...

3 - Yup, I can see this, I don't want to believe it, but then again I'm pretty consistently surprised by adults, in a bad way.

4 - Agree, except there are far better ways to bilk me outta my money, and ways that I'd be far more amenable to that wouldn't mess with the mechanics of the game...  so I dunno...  This would be the easiest reason to fall back to, its just that they're leaving so much opportunity on the table...