Ohboy wrote: 1) this game will never be pay2play until the AI gets really good, or we get true pvp. As someone with numerous brag threads and a top player in the gold tier after just a few months of play, you should understand this more than anyone.
Ohboy wrote: 2) this plan does not provide incentive for people to pay at all. The casual players who invest money in this game will continue to pay as they do now because they cannot get the 1k crystals a week from casual play.
Ohboy wrote: It's completely self serving. And I say this as someone who makes quite a bit of coin a week.
Ohboy wrote: 3) with casual players getting maybe 1k crystals a month, exclusive mythics will need to be really good more than once a month to get anyone to spend money at all. There are only so many good cards you can use(or need), so each new round of cards will need to be better. This just leads to power creep on steroids. I think we already see this mechanic in action. Do you really want it to go into turbo mode?
yunnnn wrote: I appreciate you for stating the counterpoints, as they serve as a perfect platform for me to explain the parts that may be misunderstood. Ohboy wrote: 1) this game will never be pay2play until the AI gets really good, or we get true pvp. As someone with numerous brag threads and a top player in the gold tier after just a few months of play, you should understand this more than anyone. Do you have Olivia? If not, do you feel like you should get Olivia? Olivia is the prime example of a pay2win mythic because it instantly and absolutely turns a player from wood tier to competitive tier. I count myself as one of these players. I should not have been given the privilege to pay 30$ and instantly win every event from that point onward. In fact, if I had known how powerful Olivia would be, I would have just quit the game before buying her. The unfair advantage I gain by spending money is not in the spirit of MTG, and I believe that most players come to this game with those feelings at heart. Nobody can deny that the exclusive mythics are a tier above all the other cards, and putting a pay gate behind the best cards causes the game to become pay2win. Sure, these cards do become available later, but with how much power creep there is in the game, the damage is already done by the time they get released into the wild. I don't know what you mean by "pay2play".
Ohboy wrote: 2) this plan does not provide incentive for people to pay at all. The casual players who invest money in this game will continue to pay as they do now because they cannot get the 1k crystals a week from casual play. There is a massive difference between: "There is only one way to get this card: spend 30$" and"You can pay for the card using event rewards, saving up from story missions, or paying money" Even if the price gate is high (which I set at 1000 on purpose), it gives players a means of getting unique cards and progression without having to sit through boxes and boxes of frustrating duplicates. Think about a real MTG tournament which rewarded a Black Lotus to first place. Except... you can't trade it, and you already have a copy of it. The reward is useless to you. I would expect that many players would choose to not play in the tournament. If this tournament instead offered store credit, then all players would feel highly incentivized, and the competition would be fierce. This is the atmosphere that this plan tries to instill.New players will see that there is a point to collecting crystals (getting pws and exclusive mythics), and if they want to buy big boxes to round out their collection of uncommons, then that is fine too. If new players feel like they must pay money to get ahead (and I assure you, Olivia gets everyone way ahead), then that is a negative to the game.Veteran players know that spending crystals on big boxes is often fruitless; this plan also provides a form of progression for these players, giving them incentive to continue playing. I don't have all the PWs or even more than 700 unique cards, but for the players who do, I'm sure they will appreciate having some reason to play the game.
Ohboy wrote: It's completely self serving. And I say this as someone who makes quite a bit of coin a week. I honestly don't even bother playing this game much anymore. I don't hit #1s in QBs because 500 crystals, a mythic, and a big box is just a recipe for dupes. I'm offering a plan that will serve all players. If they made this change, I certainly will be more excited to play it. And if the player at the top of the game doesn't feel rewarded for being at the top, then how rewarding can this game really be for everyone below? I'm making a simple plea to the creators of this game; make me excited to play, and I'll naturally spend money.
Ohboy wrote: 3) with casual players getting maybe 1k crystals a month, exclusive mythics will need to be really good more than once a month to get anyone to spend money at all. There are only so many good cards you can use(or need), so each new round of cards will need to be better. This just leads to power creep on steroids. I think we already see this mechanic in action. Do you really want it to go into turbo mode? The crystal cost can be adjusted based on demand and other logicla factors. Shooting down the specific number I picked is not an argument against the plan in itself. Also, don't forget that new sets, rotating planeswalkers, as well as old rotating sets will continue to consume the player's crystals. Giving players a guaranteed form of progression (and another crystal sink) is just a way to keep all players interested in collecting crystals.
Ohboy wrote: Pay2play means you need to pay to be competitive. Which just isn't true. I have friends who havent paid a single cent and have found success. Master your cards and go platinum if you want to say Olivia is allowing you to be a top player. What made you a top player is getting Olivia, and staying in a lower tier to farm stronger mythics. You're winning every event because you're playing in gold. How is that not obvious to you?
yunnnn wrote: Ohboy wrote: Pay2play means you need to pay to be competitive. Which just isn't true. I have friends who havent paid a single cent and have found success. Master your cards and go platinum if you want to say Olivia is allowing you to be a top player. What made you a top player is getting Olivia, and staying in a lower tier to farm stronger mythics. You're winning every event because you're playing in gold. How is that not obvious to you? You're clearly just picking and choosing words to suit the context instead of trying to understand the point. I have not made a single comment directed at you, while you instead choose ad hominem as your method of choice: "How is that not obvious to you?" I never even mentioned "Pay2play", and you keep bringing it up for some reason. I don't even disagree with you there... so why are you arguing with yourself? Just because people have done well without Olivia doesn't mean that Olivia isn't pay2win. F2P players honestly have it the best in this game because if the card doesn't work, at least they didn't spend 50$ to get it. If I knew that buying Olivia and winning every gold event would give me all the cards easily, I wouldn't have spent 30$ and instead have chosen a more interesting challenge in another game. Ranking up to Plat is a hilarious argument, as it just means I have to wake up early in the morning for every event to win tie breakers. There is absolutely no reason for me to get sucked into a flawed system. The concept of having certain high powered cards for sale is broken. If the game had proper events and enticing gameplay, all players will be enticed to spend money on crystals. Look at it this way: The game offers useful things to purchase with crystals = People are more incentivized to play the game. Players will pay money to support the game. The game doesn't offer useful things to purchase with crystals = People get bored with dupes and un-fun, unrewarding events, and stop playing. No revenue. This is the correct mechanism for freemium games: Game is fun and events are exciting -> Players are addicted -> Pay money to show support This is an incorrect mechanism: Pay gate for premium quality cards -> Get way way ahead -> Maybe have some fun now that you're better than everyone -> Get bored unless you spend more money My solution is a means to tie together and solve the fundamental problems in the game: 1. Lack of progression for veteran players 2. Pay2win feeling of exclusive mythics 3. Event Mythic/Rare rewards being unsatisfying and often duplicates 4. Lack of incentive to participate in events If you have a better one that attempts to do the same, please suggest an alternative with supporting points.
Ohboy wrote: So you don't want to master to Plat because you enjoy winning even with bad rewards. I think that answers the question of who would continue playing events even if rewards are bad.
Ohboy wrote: If you truly want a suggestion, I have one you really won't like. I propose events move in the opposite direction. No free mythics/rares. Boosters and crystals only.
Ohboy wrote: All mythic cards drop at a much rarer rate, with no exclusivity for select ones. mythic cards cycle in and out of the stores on a shorter cycle, purchase less by cash, with a discount if you trade in x dupe mythics or y rares.
yunnnn wrote: Ohboy wrote: So you don't want to master to Plat because you enjoy winning even with bad rewards. I think that answers the question of who would continue playing events even if rewards are bad. We can quit this Plat talk. If I don't even care enough to even hit top 10 QBs anymore, I certainly don't care to spend the effort to get marginally more crystals. After all, this entire thread is about how crystals are worthless to veterans. I don't care about the additional challenge of Plat at all; I'd rather play other games where I feel rewarded for trying. Why challenge myself for no real gain? Ohboy wrote: If you truly want a suggestion, I have one you really won't like. I propose events move in the opposite direction. No free mythics/rares. Boosters and crystals only. This is part of my original post, please read it. I also agreed to this when you said it the first time in the other thread. I'm not here to argue with you; if we can conduct a real discussion then something might be achieved here. Ohboy wrote: All mythic cards drop at a much rarer rate, with no exclusivity for select ones. mythic cards cycle in and out of the stores on a shorter cycle, purchase less by cash, with a discount if you trade in x dupe mythics or y rares. Sounds good. I like the feeling of progression, and all cards are eventually obtainable. (Seriously, good try.) The only problem here is that your suggestion is not pragmatic: 1. Dupes need a whole new system to handle this. You just pissed off everyone who has been turning dupes into runes. The devs need to think long and hard before they implement any dupe system. 2. Aren't all cards going to be eventually obtainable in your system as well? Being able to eventually buy every mythic is actually a mistake, as you need RNG to create whales. If I can just buy all the cards I'm missing without RNG, it drastically reduces the amount I'm spending on the game. It affects their bottom line. 3. Lack of exclusive mythics means their exclusive model **** out. Selling mythics for cash on a short cycle is just asking players to pony up on a more regular basis for cards, which further entrenches the pay2win aspect: You still think that paying for singles is good for this game, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Your suggestion, while being fine for the playerbase (I give it 6 thumbs up), has coding implementation costs and simply kills of a large amount of perspective sales from whales. I'm sure D3 is having a field day when some idiot buys 100$ of big boxes; they are certainly not going to give that up.That is what separates my threads from yours: I gave a real solution that causes no real dev implementation cost, no negative change in their sales, and simultaneously makes the game feel more approachable to beginners and less of a money grub. It's not the best solution, but it can legitimately happen.Conclusion: The big idea here is that I'm not advocating for any huge changes in the game; I just want to help the game get rid of the stigma of asking players to pay $$$ for specific cards. If you don't think that having specific cards for $$$ is a bad thing, then you should just avoid this thread completely. And I understand that the reality is most players will still spend money to get these cards (that's part of the design and the intent). I don't want to drastically change their sales, I simply want to make the game feel like you don't have to throw money to be good. So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?
Ohboy wrote: To be frank, a big change has to occur eventually for this game to keep pumping out new cards and generate income , and it's probably going to be sets cycling out of use. If there's anything to worry about, it's probably this upcoming storm. I had this in mind when I came up with the trade in mythics idea, to soften the blow.
yunnnn wrote: So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?