Pay2Win Exclusive Mythics and a Real Solution

yunnnn

Context
Each week, an exclusive mythic combo cycles in, and is temporarily purchaseable for 30$. These are typically very strong cards that all players want.

• The exclusive mythic costs about 17$ (subtracting the crystals and other packs you get with it).
• The exclusive card is otherwise not obtainable until the next set comes out.
• Because the card is not obtainable without directly paying real money, it really feels like shameless money-grubbing pay-to-win. This is highly discouraging to all players.
• By promoting such a blatant pay2win offering, it differentiates this game from other successful freemium games that do not need to rely on this. Being able to solve a challenge via $$$ is not fun and only dilutes the quality of the game.
• Contrast the quality of the exclusive mythics (30$) to the exclusive rares (obtainable in events). The exclusive rares are much worse. This causes the events to feel incredibly boring, because the real, strong cards are obtained through cash instead of event placement. This is not fun.

Solution
Make the exclusive mythic pack cost 1000 crystals instead. The rotation scheme and everything else is the same.

• The effective cost is the same (around 30$).
• The exclusive card can now be obtained by people who play the game often, giving them incentives to save crystals. This makes events more interesting, because we can build towards an exclusive card, rather than getting useless dupes (or simply bad mythics that we don't want). This provides progression to end-game players.
• All players are incentivized to invest in the game, so they can win crystals and get the exclusive mythics without paying for them.
• Realistically, almost all players can't obtain 1000 crystals a week, so there is no loss in revenue. The incentive of playing more to obtain these exclusives will instead drive up sales and increase revenue.
• Because the card is now theoretically obtainable without paying real money, it removes the shameless pay-to-win aspect of the game.
• Charging 1000 crystals incentivizes players to buy the 3000 crystal pack, further increasing revenue.

Summary
I don't think it's too much to ask for a system that doesn't defeat the spirit of Magic the Gathering, and adequately rewards players who do well in events.

It's been clear from many of my threads that the current event system is innately flawed and often contradictory (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=53876). Furthermore, the Pay2Win aspect of the 30$ mythics reinforces the feeling that this game is shamelessly trying to grub money. But it doesn't need to be this way. The changes I proposed will do nothing but drive up the bottom line, all while encouraging players to play more and do well in events.

Corollary: Further possible enhancements

• Remove all guaranteed rare/mythics from the event rewards, and instead give equivalent crystals for the top prizes. These crystals can then be used to purchase the exclusive mythics or packs of their choosing. The guaranteed mythic or rare system is always guaranteed to piss off a large % of the players. Example: 4 of the 6 mythics in EMN are terrible. Even without counting dupes, 67% of the players who receive this prize are going to be disappointed when the prizes come out. Think about it; 67% of the winners are dissatisfied with the prizes. That is terrible.
• Change the event's individual placement top prize to be an exclusive mythic. This will drive up demand and incentivize doing well in the event. People won't complain about the event's terrible secondaries if it's the only opportunity to get a special card (see Saheeli event; it was also terrible, but nobody complained because the prize was so good).

Conclusion:
The big idea here is that I'm not advocating for any huge changes in the game; I just want to help the game get rid of the stigma of asking players to pay $$$ for specific cards. If you don't think that having specific cards for $$$ is a bad thing, then you should just avoid this thread completely.

And I understand that the reality is most players will still spend money to get these cards (that's part of the design and the intent). I don't want to drastically change their sales, I simply want to make the game feel like you don't have to throw money to be good. So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?

jackvett

Rate this, guys. Don't comment, just rate.

Anyone who thinks that real competition exists in this game has their head in the sand, when players have exclusive access to cards like Olivia and Emmy because of real $ for well over a month.

madwren

Very constructive suggestions, two thumbs up.

DuskPaladin

Not bad, but I can't agree with the exclusive mythics as top prize. Freezes, random app closes, the different tier brackets, and the first-come-first served tie system will just leave a really bad taste in people's mouth.

What should be evident, though, is that a fun and engaging game will attract many customers, and even if things only costed 1$, they would still make a good profit and build a good reputation.

Mainloop25

These are excellent suggestions and I believe you are correct in thinking that this will make them more money in the long run. Hardcore players can win about 300-600 crystals a week between platinum-rank events, coalition rewards and high rank in quick battles. It wouldn't be out of the question to assume that players are so invested in the game they will regularly shell out an extra $20 or whatever it costs to get 400 crystals to afford that exclusive mythic.

Ohboy

I guess I'm always going to be unpopular because I point out the obvious flaws in suggestions that benefit the hardcore player base.

But someone has to do it, so here goes:

1) this game will never be pay2play until the AI gets really good, or we get true pvp. As someone with numerous brag threads and a top player in the gold tier after just a few months of play, you should understand this more than anyone.

2) this plan does not provide incentive for people to pay at all. The casual players who invest money in this game will continue to pay as they do now because they cannot get the 1k crystals a week from casual play. All it does to this group of players is ensure they spend less because they can now store crystals to buy the mythic they want every few weeks. What this plan really does is let the hardcore players such as yourself have access to the mythics you currently do not have access to without paying. It's completely self serving. And I say this as someone who makes quite a bit of coin a week.

3) with casual players getting maybe 1k crystals a month, exclusive mythics will need to be really good more than once a month to get anyone to spend money at all. There are only so many good cards you can use(or need), so each new round of cards will need to be better. This just leads to power creep on steroids. I think we already see this mechanic in action. Do you really want it to go into turbo mode?

The only thing I can sort of agree with is better prizes for top 5 individual rankings. An exclusive mythic is too much but I think the boosters need to at least be a big box. You'll run out of these exclusive rares in a few weeks anyway, and make another brag thread about having them all, so it just kicks the complaint down the street.

This game is pretty far from pay2play. It's pay2collectthemall. You're not having to pay money every so often just to stay competitive.

yunnnn

I appreciate you for stating the counterpoints, as they serve as a perfect platform for me to explain the parts that may be misunderstood.

Ohboy wrote:

1) this game will never be pay2play until the AI gets really good, or we get true pvp. As someone with numerous brag threads and a top player in the gold tier after just a few months of play, you should understand this more than anyone.

Do you have Olivia? If not, do you feel like you should get Olivia? Olivia is the prime example of a pay2win mythic because it instantly and absolutely turns a player from wood tier to competitive tier. I count myself as one of these players.

I should not have been given the privilege to pay 30$ and instantly win every event from that point onward. In fact, if I had known how powerful Olivia would be, I would have just quit the game before buying her. The unfair advantage I gain by spending money is not in the spirit of MTG, and I believe that most players come to this game with those feelings at heart.

Nobody can deny that the exclusive mythics are a tier above all the other cards, and putting a pay gate behind the best cards causes the game to become pay2win. Sure, these cards do become available later, but with how much power creep there is in the game, the damage is already done by the time they get released into the wild. I don't know what you mean by "pay2play".

Ohboy wrote:

2) this plan does not provide incentive for people to pay at all. The casual players who invest money in this game will continue to pay as they do now because they cannot get the 1k crystals a week from casual play.

There is a massive difference between:
"There is only one way to get this card: spend 30$" and
"You can pay for the card using event rewards, saving up from story missions, or paying money"

Even if the price gate is high (which I set at 1000 on purpose), it gives players a means of getting unique cards and progression without having to sit through boxes and boxes of frustrating duplicates. Think about a real MTG tournament which rewarded a Black Lotus to first place. Except... you can't trade it, and you already have a copy of it. The reward is useless to you. I would expect that many players would choose to not play in the tournament. If this tournament instead offered store credit, then all players would feel highly incentivized, and the competition would be fierce. This is the atmosphere that this plan tries to instill.

New players will see that there is a point to collecting crystals (getting pws and exclusive mythics), and if they want to buy big boxes to round out their collection of uncommons, then that is fine too. If new players feel like they must pay money to get ahead (and I assure you, Olivia gets everyone way ahead), then that is a negative to the game.

Veteran players know that spending crystals on big boxes is often fruitless; this plan also provides a form of progression for these players, giving them incentive to continue playing. I don't have all the PWs or even more than 700 unique cards, but for the players who do, I'm sure they will appreciate having some reason to play the game.

Ohboy wrote:

It's completely self serving. And I say this as someone who makes quite a bit of coin a week.

I honestly don't even bother playing this game much anymore. I don't hit #1s in QBs because 500 crystals, a mythic, and a big box is just a recipe for dupes. I'm offering a plan that will serve all players. If they made this change, I certainly will be more excited to play it. And if the player at the top of the game doesn't feel rewarded for being at the top, then how rewarding can this game really be for everyone below?

I'm making a simple plea to the creators of this game; make me excited to play, and I'll naturally spend money.

Ohboy wrote:

3) with casual players getting maybe 1k crystals a month, exclusive mythics will need to be really good more than once a month to get anyone to spend money at all. There are only so many good cards you can use(or need), so each new round of cards will need to be better. This just leads to power creep on steroids. I think we already see this mechanic in action. Do you really want it to go into turbo mode?

The crystal cost can be adjusted based on demand and other logicla factors. Shooting down the specific number I picked is not an argument against the plan in itself.

Also, don't forget that new sets, rotating planeswalkers, as well as old rotating sets will continue to consume the player's crystals. Giving players a guaranteed form of progression (and another crystal sink) is just a way to keep all players interested in collecting crystals.

Ohboy

yunnnn wrote:

I appreciate you for stating the counterpoints, as they serve as a perfect platform for me to explain the parts that may be misunderstood.

Ohboy wrote:

1) this game will never be pay2play until the AI gets really good, or we get true pvp. As someone with numerous brag threads and a top player in the gold tier after just a few months of play, you should understand this more than anyone.

Do you have Olivia? If not, do you feel like you should get Olivia? Olivia is the prime example of a pay2win mythic because it instantly and absolutely turns a player from wood tier to competitive tier. I count myself as one of these players.

I should not have been given the privilege to pay 30$ and instantly win every event from that point onward. In fact, if I had known how powerful Olivia would be, I would have just quit the game before buying her. The unfair advantage I gain by spending money is not in the spirit of MTG, and I believe that most players come to this game with those feelings at heart.

Nobody can deny that the exclusive mythics are a tier above all the other cards, and putting a pay gate behind the best cards causes the game to become pay2win. Sure, these cards do become available later, but with how much power creep there is in the game, the damage is already done by the time they get released into the wild. I don't know what you mean by "pay2play".

Pay2play means you need to pay to be competitive. Which just isn't true. I have friends who havent paid a single cent and have found success. Master your cards and go platinum if you want to say Olivia is allowing you to be a top player. What made you a top player is getting Olivia, and staying in a lower tier to farm stronger mythics. You're winning every event because you're playing in gold. How is that not obvious to you?

As for the spirit of mtg, which era are you talking about? Is it the original plan for mtg(where trading wasn't expected) and they thought people wouldn't get the rares they needed to make super decks, or later part where it's literally Pay2play and you need to pay money to buy the cards you need to be remotely competitive?

Ohboy wrote:

2) this plan does not provide incentive for people to pay at all. The casual players who invest money in this game will continue to pay as they do now because they cannot get the 1k crystals a week from casual play.

There is a massive difference between:
"There is only one way to get this card: spend 30$" and
"You can pay for the card using event rewards, saving up from story missions, or paying money"

Even if the price gate is high (which I set at 1000 on purpose), it gives players a means of getting unique cards and progression without having to sit through boxes and boxes of frustrating duplicates. Think about a real MTG tournament which rewarded a Black Lotus to first place. Except... you can't trade it, and you already have a copy of it. The reward is useless to you. I would expect that many players would choose to not play in the tournament. If this tournament instead offered store credit, then all players would feel highly incentivized, and the competition would be fierce. This is the atmosphere that this plan tries to instill.

New players will see that there is a point to collecting crystals (getting pws and exclusive mythics), and if they want to buy big boxes to round out their collection of uncommons, then that is fine too. If new players feel like they must pay money to get ahead (and I assure you, Olivia gets everyone way ahead), then that is a negative to the game.

Veteran players know that spending crystals on big boxes is often fruitless; this plan also provides a form of progression for these players, giving them incentive to continue playing. I don't have all the PWs or even more than 700 unique cards, but for the players who do, I'm sure they will appreciate having some reason to play the game.

I think you misunderstand my point. The casual players who are already paying for cards will pay less now. That's obvious, since they can occasionally pay with just in game crystals. Players like us will also not increase our expenditure for the same reason.

I have all the planeswalkers and enough cards that getting a non dupe card is really rare now. My incentive to play this game, like any game, is that it's fun to play. You're new, so you don't realize events are a new thing. Even for the longest time, quick battles gave no rewards. But we played, because we had fun, and we'll continue to play because it's fun.

An mtg tournament that's free to join and gives 0 rewards would still have a big turn out. I'm not sure why you would think everyone plays in tournaments solely for rewards.

Ohboy wrote:

It's completely self serving. And I say this as someone who makes quite a bit of coin a week.

I honestly don't even bother playing this game much anymore. I don't hit #1s in QBs because 500 crystals, a mythic, and a big box is just a recipe for dupes. I'm offering a plan that will serve all players. If they made this change, I certainly will be more excited to play it. And if the player at the top of the game doesn't feel rewarded for being at the top, then how rewarding can this game really be for everyone below?

I'm making a simple plea to the creators of this game; make me excited to play, and I'll naturally spend money.

Yes, I don't disagree that the game will serve all players. Veterans like me actually stand the most to benefit from it in the short run. The problem is that players aren't the only variable here. Your plan benefits players at the expense of the developers. People are going to spend less. There is no way people will spend more under your plan unless the devs make more cards exclusives and ramp up the OP power creep to the max. Where does that leave the new casual player who also doesn't spend money?

Ohboy wrote:

3) with casual players getting maybe 1k crystals a month, exclusive mythics will need to be really good more than once a month to get anyone to spend money at all. There are only so many good cards you can use(or need), so each new round of cards will need to be better. This just leads to power creep on steroids. I think we already see this mechanic in action. Do you really want it to go into turbo mode?

The crystal cost can be adjusted based on demand and other logicla factors. Shooting down the specific number I picked is not an argument against the plan in itself.

Also, don't forget that new sets, rotating planeswalkers, as well as old rotating sets will continue to consume the player's crystals. Giving players a guaranteed form of progression (and another crystal sink) is just a way to keep all players interested in collecting crystals.

The problem is, there is no good number. We are currently at number infinity (impossible to purchase with crystals), and power creep is already inevitable. Any number below infinity just makes power creep faster.

I used your number as an example, but any number would do. With a limited deck space, power creep is inevitable if you want to keep selling new cards at the same pace. The only counter to that is to cycle out sets completely. But that's going to open up another **** storm of complaints. I can only imagine your fury the day you realise you can't use Olivia anymore.

yunnnn

Ohboy wrote:

Pay2play means you need to pay to be competitive. Which just isn't true. I have friends who havent paid a single cent and have found success. Master your cards and go platinum if you want to say Olivia is allowing you to be a top player. What made you a top player is getting Olivia, and staying in a lower tier to farm stronger mythics. You're winning every event because you're playing in gold. How is that not obvious to you?

You're clearly just picking and choosing words to suit the context instead of trying to understand the point. I have not made a single comment directed at you, while you instead choose ad hominem as your method of choice: "How is that not obvious to you?"

I never even mentioned "Pay2play", and you keep bringing it up. I agree with your point there, the game certainly isn't Pay2Play. F2P players honestly have it the best in this game. If their new mythic crashes the game, at least they didn't just spend 50$ on it.

"Pay2Win" is the concept that I care about: Olivia is pay2win by my definition, because it let me easily win everything. She's certainly not required by any means, but it let me shortcut and win events without trying. Now, either the card is overpowered, or I'm a great player. You decide.

If I knew that buying Olivia and winning every gold event would give me all the cards easily, I wouldn't have spent 30$ and instead have chosen a more interesting challenge in another game. I believe in skill based games, and would not have spent 30$ if I knew that it would easily win me everything in gold. Other players will similarly quit when they realize that the exclusive Mythics give them a massive power bump. I often find myself telling new coalition members (in the interest of helping them win more) that the best way to get ahead is just to pay the 30$. Many of our discussions just revolve around how powerful these cards are, and while I don't plan on spending more money, the best advice to drastically improve their decks is often to just pony up the 30$.

(Side topic: Ranking up to Platinum is a bad argument, as it just means I have to wake up early in the morning for every event to win tie breakers. There is absolutely no reason for me to get sucked into that flawed system.)

The concept of having certain high powered cards for sale is broken. If the game had proper events and enticing gameplay, all players will be enticed to spend money on crystals. Look at it this way:

The game offers useful things to purchase with crystals = People are more incentivized to play the game. Players will pay money to support the game.
The game doesn't offer useful things to purchase with crystals = People get bored with dupes and un-fun, unrewarding events, and stop playing. No revenue.


This is the correct mechanism for freemium games:
Game is fun and events are exciting -> Players are addicted -> Pay money to show support

This is an incorrect mechanism:
Pay gate for premium quality cards -> Get way way ahead -> Maybe have some fun now that you're better than everyone -> Get bored unless you spend more money


My solution is a means to tie together and solve the fundamental problems in the game:
1. Lack of progression for veteran players
2. Pay2win feeling of exclusive mythics
3. Event Mythic/Rare rewards being unsatisfying and often duplicates
4. Lack of incentive to participate in events

If you have a better one that attempts to do the same, please suggest an alternative with supporting points.



PS: Concerning all points of power creep: That is something that the developers chose to design into their cards. It's perfectly possible to design chase cards that do not exceed the existing power level. This topic has nothing to do with power creep, and we've had plenty of discussions on this in other threads.

Power creep doesn't occur at the moment that everyone gets Deploy + Porky, it happens at design time when they produce cards that are drastically undercosted and overpowered compared to existing cards. Power creep has nothing to do with distribution of cards. Saying that power creep is limited due to nobody actually having the overpowered cards is not accurate and a fallacy. If you disagree, this would be a topic for a different thread.

Ohboy

yunnnn wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

Pay2play means you need to pay to be competitive. Which just isn't true. I have friends who havent paid a single cent and have found success. Master your cards and go platinum if you want to say Olivia is allowing you to be a top player. What made you a top player is getting Olivia, and staying in a lower tier to farm stronger mythics. You're winning every event because you're playing in gold. How is that not obvious to you?

You're clearly just picking and choosing words to suit the context instead of trying to understand the point. I have not made a single comment directed at you, while you instead choose ad hominem as your method of choice: "How is that not obvious to you?"

I never even mentioned "Pay2play", and you keep bringing it up for some reason. I don't even disagree with you there... so why are you arguing with yourself? Just because people have done well without Olivia doesn't mean that Olivia isn't pay2win. F2P players honestly have it the best in this game because if the card doesn't work, at least they didn't spend 50$ to get it.

If I knew that buying Olivia and winning every gold event would give me all the cards easily, I wouldn't have spent 30$ and instead have chosen a more interesting challenge in another game. Ranking up to Plat is a hilarious argument, as it just means I have to wake up early in the morning for every event to win tie breakers. There is absolutely no reason for me to get sucked into a flawed system.

The concept of having certain high powered cards for sale is broken. If the game had proper events and enticing gameplay, all players will be enticed to spend money on crystals. Look at it this way:

The game offers useful things to purchase with crystals = People are more incentivized to play the game. Players will pay money to support the game.
The game doesn't offer useful things to purchase with crystals = People get bored with dupes and un-fun, unrewarding events, and stop playing. No revenue.


This is the correct mechanism for freemium games:
Game is fun and events are exciting -> Players are addicted -> Pay money to show support

This is an incorrect mechanism:
Pay gate for premium quality cards -> Get way way ahead -> Maybe have some fun now that you're better than everyone -> Get bored unless you spend more money


My solution is a means to tie together and solve the fundamental problems in the game:
1. Lack of progression for veteran players
2. Pay2win feeling of exclusive mythics
3. Event Mythic/Rare rewards being unsatisfying and often duplicates
4. Lack of incentive to participate in events

If you have a better one that attempts to do the same, please suggest an alternative with supporting points.

Ah the claws come out.

So you don't want to master to Plat because you enjoy winning even with bad rewards. I think that answers the question of who would continue playing events even if rewards are bad.

There's nothing wrong with pay2win. Who does it affect? The current players? Like I said, AI is so bad it doesn't matter. All it does is give a boost to a new player, or to let paying customers support the game more. How does it have any effect on the game at all? You bought Olivia because she's good and you enjoy winning.

You really think platinum is just filled with players of your caliber that wake up earlier? If you really want a challenge, tier up. That's a silly excuse. Nop is today. It's going to be brutal. Bring your best game.

Fremium games don't usually work the way you describe. They create rivalry and use that to convince people to spend money to best their friends. This is a common method because it works best. Yes, others have found success in the way you described, but this is the low hanging fruit, and you're not going to make a successful argument to the devs about messing with a winning formula.

To address your points

1) sets come out every other month it seems. There's plenty of progression, especially for the majority of players who aren't set on just farming. Your methods just push the problem down the road. What happens when you've redeemed all the mythics you want? That's the true end of progression. My dupe rate can't be lower than yours, and I'm still happy to be able to open boosters.

2) again, this doesn't affect anyone but new players who want a boost in the game. You don't need Olivia to win shut out games. The AI is that bad. We can revisit this point when the AI actually poses a threat, or PvP becomes a thing.

3) this is just a natural consequence of your collecting filling out. If no new cards were truly an issue, veterens would have quit long ago. For months, we didn't even get to open new boosters without spending money other than the rune packs or daily rewards.

4) all that talk about lack of incentive joining events is moot if you clearly still care so much about placing top in events while complaining there's no incentive.


If you truly want a suggestion, I have one you really won't like. I propose events move in the opposite direction. No free mythics/rares. Boosters and crystals only. All mythic cards drop at a much rarer rate, with no exclusivity for select ones. mythic cards cycle in and out of the stores on a shorter cycle, purchase less by cash, with a discount if you trade in x dupe mythics or y rares.

This does 4 things:

1) people stop taking mythics for granted.

2) people don't have to open 133875 boxes to find the one mythic they need

3) people who already have a nice collection will still spend money to round out their collection, and find a use for their dupes.

4) no more complaints about cards being only available to whales. Everyone can open any card in a booster if they try.

yunnnn

Ohboy wrote:

So you don't want to master to Plat because you enjoy winning even with bad rewards. I think that answers the question of who would continue playing events even if rewards are bad.

We can quit this Plat talk. If I don't even care enough to even hit top 10 QBs anymore, I certainly don't care to spend the effort to get marginally more crystals. After all, this entire thread is about how crystals are worthless to veterans. I don't care about the additional challenge of Plat at all; I'd rather play other games where I feel rewarded for trying. Why challenge myself for no real gain?

Ohboy wrote:

If you truly want a suggestion, I have one you really won't like. I propose events move in the opposite direction. No free mythics/rares. Boosters and crystals only.

This is part of my original post, please read it. I also agreed to this when you said it the first time in the other thread. I'm not here to argue with you; if we can conduct a real discussion then something might be achieved here.

Ohboy wrote:

All mythic cards drop at a much rarer rate, with no exclusivity for select ones. mythic cards cycle in and out of the stores on a shorter cycle, purchase less by cash, with a discount if you trade in x dupe mythics or y rares.

Sounds good. I like the feeling of progression, and all cards are eventually obtainable. (Seriously, good try.)
The only problem here is that your suggestion is not pragmatic:

1. Dupes need a whole new system to handle this. You just pissed off everyone who has been turning dupes into runes. The devs need to think long and hard before they implement any dupe system.
2. Aren't all cards going to be eventually obtainable in your system as well? Being able to eventually buy every mythic is actually a mistake, as you need RNG to create whales. If I can just buy all the cards I'm missing without RNG, it drastically reduces the amount I'm spending on the game. It affects their bottom line.
3. Lack of exclusive mythics means their exclusive model **** out. Selling mythics for cash on a short cycle is just asking players to pony up on a more regular basis for cards, which further entrenches the pay2win aspect: You still think that paying for singles is good for this game, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Your suggestion, while being fine for the playerbase (I give it 6 thumbs up), has coding implementation costs and simply kills of a large amount of perspective sales from whales. I'm sure D3 is having a field day when some idiot buys 100$ of big boxes; they are certainly not going to give that up.

That is what separates my threads from yours: I gave a real solution that causes no real dev implementation cost, no negative change in their sales, and simultaneously makes the game feel more approachable to beginners and less of a money grub. It's not the best solution, but it can legitimately happen.

Conclusion:
The big idea here is that I'm not advocating for any huge changes in the game; I just want to help the game get rid of the stigma of asking players to pay $$$ for specific cards. If you don't think that having specific cards for $$$ is a bad thing, then you should just avoid this thread completely.

And I understand that the reality is most players will still spend money to get these cards (that's part of the design and the intent). I don't want to drastically change their sales, I simply want to make the game feel like you don't have to throw money to be good. So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?

Ohboy

yunnnn wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

So you don't want to master to Plat because you enjoy winning even with bad rewards. I think that answers the question of who would continue playing events even if rewards are bad.

We can quit this Plat talk. If I don't even care enough to even hit top 10 QBs anymore, I certainly don't care to spend the effort to get marginally more crystals. After all, this entire thread is about how crystals are worthless to veterans. I don't care about the additional challenge of Plat at all; I'd rather play other games where I feel rewarded for trying. Why challenge myself for no real gain?

Ohboy wrote:

If you truly want a suggestion, I have one you really won't like. I propose events move in the opposite direction. No free mythics/rares. Boosters and crystals only.

This is part of my original post, please read it. I also agreed to this when you said it the first time in the other thread. I'm not here to argue with you; if we can conduct a real discussion then something might be achieved here.

Ohboy wrote:

All mythic cards drop at a much rarer rate, with no exclusivity for select ones. mythic cards cycle in and out of the stores on a shorter cycle, purchase less by cash, with a discount if you trade in x dupe mythics or y rares.

Sounds good. I like the feeling of progression, and all cards are eventually obtainable. (Seriously, good try.)
The only problem here is that your suggestion is not pragmatic:

1. Dupes need a whole new system to handle this. You just pissed off everyone who has been turning dupes into runes. The devs need to think long and hard before they implement any dupe system.
2. Aren't all cards going to be eventually obtainable in your system as well? Being able to eventually buy every mythic is actually a mistake, as you need RNG to create whales. If I can just buy all the cards I'm missing without RNG, it drastically reduces the amount I'm spending on the game. It affects their bottom line.
3. Lack of exclusive mythics means their exclusive model **** out. Selling mythics for cash on a short cycle is just asking players to pony up on a more regular basis for cards, which further entrenches the pay2win aspect: You still think that paying for singles is good for this game, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Your suggestion, while being fine for the playerbase (I give it 6 thumbs up), has coding implementation costs and simply kills of a large amount of perspective sales from whales. I'm sure D3 is having a field day when some idiot buys 100$ of big boxes; they are certainly not going to give that up.

That is what separates my threads from yours: I gave a real solution that causes no real dev implementation cost, no negative change in their sales, and simultaneously makes the game feel more approachable to beginners and less of a money grub. It's not the best solution, but it can legitimately happen.

Conclusion:
The big idea here is that I'm not advocating for any huge changes in the game; I just want to help the game get rid of the stigma of asking players to pay $$$ for specific cards. If you don't think that having specific cards for $$$ is a bad thing, then you should just avoid this thread completely.

And I understand that the reality is most players will still spend money to get these cards (that's part of the design and the intent). I don't want to drastically change their sales, I simply want to make the game feel like you don't have to throw money to be good. So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?

You're right. Everyone eventually gets every card if they want to. Every finite system is going to have that limiting factor. The problem is how we get there.

Under the existing system, we open boosters and win qbs and eventually get there after a long journey of dupes on the long tail. Under your system, hardcore players get every card in the set after a few weeks. If you can make X crystals before a card you want comes up for sale, you don't ever pay for cards. Under my system, the same happens, but only if you're willing to shell out some money to support the game.

It's not really that I think selling cards is a great idea. It's just not going to work any other way. It would be great if the game worked on donations, but that's just not going to happen. If there's a way for people to spend less, then people will spend less.

You keep saying that players need to buy cards to be good at this game, and that's just not true. Not until the AI can win a consistent amount of games. That's why I'm OK with this game having single cards for sale. It's just not that great of an impact on the meta.

Not sure why you think your suggestions cost less in development than mine. Both are probably a couple of days work. Mine requires a new selection page, but I would be very disappointed if that took the team more than a day.

I feel your suggestion is neither income neutral nor newbie friendly. That's why I bothered to reply in the first place. Who are these new players you know who have X crystals to blow on a mythic every week? And now they'll be facing decks with even more chase mythics instead of the slightly less optimal decks most players still have. Your plan increases the barrier of entry unevenly skewed towards new players.

Believe it or not, I'm not here just to argue with you. I genuinely think it just won't work out the way you think it will. To be frank, a big change has to occur eventually for this game to keep pumping out new cards and generate income , and it's probably going to be sets cycling out of use. If there's anything to worry about, it's probably this upcoming storm. I had this in mind when I came up with the trade in mythics idea, to soften the blow.

Corn_Noodles

Ohboy wrote:

To be frank, a big change has to occur eventually for this game to keep pumping out new cards and generate income , and it's probably going to be sets cycling out of use. If there's anything to worry about, it's probably this upcoming storm. I had this in mind when I came up with the trade in mythics idea, to soften the blow.

I agree that set rotation needs to happen in some form. I think a way to mitigate any storm from that would be to create two different competitive systems with equal rewards in each system. A "Legacy" event system and a "Standard" event system running at the same time side-by-side. If you're worried about people getting two much from both at the same time, make a player have to opt-in to which system they want to play in.

Tilikum

This is a cool idea and I'm glad that it's become a hot topic. I'm trying to get inside the diabolical mind of D3 and understand why they would be opposed to something like this... I guess, the way it's set up now, if you want the flavor of the week bah-roken exclusive, you gotta shell out pure cashish. For each person that has saved up 1,000 from playing, D3 loses a sale.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure they are really interested in shaking the P2W vibe this game has. Especially considering the nonstop parade of purchasable nonsense in the activity hub instead of making something as simple as scrolling through PWs run smoothly. I do support this idea though, for sure.

ZW2007-

yunnnn wrote:

So, if it doesn't affect the bottom line, and it's easy to do, why not just do it?

I'm not opposed to the idea at all because I think it would allow me to get more of the exclusive mythics I want without spending more of my money. This is why I think this will never happen. We don't have the data to see if a change like this would hurt the bottom line, but they do. They obviously know how many players purchase each exclusive mythic and purchase crystals. They probably track crystal spending and hoarding habits as well. They can easily use this data to determine whether or not it would hurt the bottom line. Thing is, they are never going to discuss any of this with us unless we are shareholders at a shareholder meeting. At least we can assume they see this and hope it's something they discuss amongst themselves. I'd much rather see a future where exclusive mythics (or all mythics for that matter) aren't quite as insanely powerful as Olivia and cost somewhere around a $5 price point without all the extra fluff (fat pack, crystals, runes).