@KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @Vhailorx said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count? When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero. KGB Interesting stuff. So what would his nationality be then? White guys born in future Alberta ca 1800 were almost all UK citizens (with maybe some birthright US citizens in the mix). Whether they can claim to be natives to that land is a more complicated question. It has been a while since I read Origin but isn’t he the Son of a rich land owner? Doesn’t sound very native I guess. So Wolverine could be a Brit - not an idea I was expecting I think it's now considered he was the son of the rich landowner's servants/workers. But either way, yeah he's definitely of British Isles descent. But I wouldn't say that makes him a British superhero just because he has British heritage because he wasn't born there and it's quite likely his parents weren't either. A of people in North America in the 1800s would have been born into territories rather that into the country proper depending on when the State or Province officially joined the respective country. I personally group those people into being officially born into no country. KGB
@KGB said:
@DAZ0273 said: @Vhailorx said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count? When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero. KGB Interesting stuff. So what would his nationality be then? White guys born in future Alberta ca 1800 were almost all UK citizens (with maybe some birthright US citizens in the mix). Whether they can claim to be natives to that land is a more complicated question. It has been a while since I read Origin but isn’t he the Son of a rich land owner? Doesn’t sound very native I guess. So Wolverine could be a Brit - not an idea I was expecting
@DAZ0273 said:
@Vhailorx said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count? When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero. KGB Interesting stuff. So what would his nationality be then? White guys born in future Alberta ca 1800 were almost all UK citizens (with maybe some birthright US citizens in the mix). Whether they can claim to be natives to that land is a more complicated question.
@Vhailorx said:
@DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count? When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero. KGB Interesting stuff. So what would his nationality be then?
@KGB said: @DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count? When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero. KGB
@DAZ0273 said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB Wolverine doesn't count?
@KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB
@MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation
@MultipleMan98 said:
@entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world.
Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation
You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar
KGB
Wolverine doesn't count?
When he was born (late 1800s on latest retcon?) that land wasn't really a part of Canada. Alberta didn't become a province until 1095. Before that it was a territory that could have decided to join the US or Canada or even gone it's own way entirely. For that reason I don't consider him a Canadian superhero.
Interesting stuff. So what would his nationality be then?
White guys born in future Alberta ca 1800 were almost all UK citizens (with maybe some birthright US citizens in the mix). Whether they can claim to be natives to that land is a more complicated question.
It has been a while since I read Origin but isn’t he the Son of a rich land owner? Doesn’t sound very native I guess. So Wolverine could be a Brit - not an idea I was expecting
I think it's now considered he was the son of the rich landowner's servants/workers.
But either way, yeah he's definitely of British Isles descent. But I wouldn't say that makes him a British superhero just because he has British heritage because he wasn't born there and it's quite likely his parents weren't either. A of people in North America in the 1800s would have been born into territories rather that into the country proper depending on when the State or Province officially joined the respective country. I personally group those people into being officially born into no country.
He presumably gets Canadian citizenship at some point in Marvel history because there are numerous examples of him having it such as passport and his service in Canadian armed forces. I don't know enough about Canada to say whether that stacks up or not. It seems like Origin made problems for itself!
Hey fun fact - at one point Wolverine was going to be French Canadian and would have spoken French in the same strange way all Claremont characters do if he had been just as popular - you know the way that Nightcrawler can speak fluent English including complicated English phrases but then he forgets how to say "my friend" or something and has to slip into German!
@bbigler said: @Bowgentle said: This thread is taking a weird turn, and not for the better. So you just cater to the majority, and expect everyone to just accept that there's no representation. OK. That's.. A take. Nobody explicitly said that. But no one should be surprised or offended that the majority of Marvel heroes are white American men. Over time they’ve added everyone else, but I hope they did it for the sake of a good interesting superhero, not for the sake of diversity. We have many bad Hollywood movies that put diversity over everything else.
@bbigler said:
@Bowgentle said: This thread is taking a weird turn, and not for the better. So you just cater to the majority, and expect everyone to just accept that there's no representation. OK. That's.. A take.
Nobody explicitly said that. But no one should be surprised or offended that the majority of Marvel heroes are white American men. Over time they’ve added everyone else, but I hope they did it for the sake of a good interesting superhero, not for the sake of diversity. We have many bad Hollywood movies that put diversity over everything else.
This thread was pretty thin on racial dynamics until you brought it up.
I don't mind Marvel telling stories no matter what the sex/gender identity/ ethnicity/ religious background / species or planet of origin is.
That they've been ahead of the curve on that front most of the time is a plus for me but not a big deal.
@MultipleMan98 said: @DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600 It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616) Shamrock may be even worst but I guess she doesn’t have the castle filled with Leprechauns… Hey those leprechauns saved Nightcrawlers life so take that back good sir
@DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600 It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616) Shamrock may be even worst but I guess she doesn’t have the castle filled with Leprechauns…
@MultipleMan98 said: @rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600 It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616)
@rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600
@rainkingucd said:
Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600
It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616)
Shamrock may be even worst but I guess she doesn’t have the castle filled with Leprechauns…
Hey those leprechauns saved Nightcrawlers life so take that back good sir
This is true. And maybe Leprechaun's don't believe in talking Wolverine's either!
@DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600 It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616) Shamrock may be even worst but I guess she doesn’t have the castle filled with Leprechauns… Hey those leprechauns saved Nightcrawlers life so take that back good sir This is true. And maybe Leprechaun's don't believe in talking Wolverine's either!
Pot of adamantium at the end of the rainbow?
@revskip said: @bbigler said: @Bowgentle said: This thread is taking a weird turn, and not for the better. So you just cater to the majority, and expect everyone to just accept that there's no representation. OK. That's.. A take. Nobody explicitly said that. But no one should be surprised or offended that the majority of Marvel heroes are white American men. Over time they’ve added everyone else, but I hope they did it for the sake of a good interesting superhero, not for the sake of diversity. We have many bad Hollywood movies that put diversity over everything else. This thread was pretty thin on racial dynamics until you brought it up. I don't mind Marvel telling stories no matter what the sex/gender identity/ ethnicity/ religious background / species or planet of origin is. That they've been ahead of the curve on that front most of the time is a plus for me but not a big deal.
@revskip said:
Spider-Man India was created by Indian comic book creators back in 2004 in partnership with Marvel and the series was then reprinted by Marvel in 2005. He was created for the Indian marketplace as Marvel hoped to get a foothold there. So he wasn't created for diversity purposes but for commercial purposes. He predates Miles Morales who often got labelled as another diversity for diversity sake creation by...miles.
@Bowgentle said: @DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @DAZ0273 said: @MultipleMan98 said: @rainkingucd said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation Is Banshee representative? Or is he more in this category: https://www.theonion.com/irish-americans-gear-up-for-the-reinforcin-o-the-stereo-1819586600 It's the most representation I'll get as an Irish person. It's either that or Shamrockhttps://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Molly_Fitzgerald_(Earth-616) Shamrock may be even worst but I guess she doesn’t have the castle filled with Leprechauns… Hey those leprechauns saved Nightcrawlers life so take that back good sir This is true. And maybe Leprechaun's don't believe in talking Wolverine's either! Pot of adamantium at the end of the rainbow?
@Bowgentle said:
Pint of Guinness knowing Wolverine!
While there are a lot of Spiders lately, I am happy we got a Across the Spider-Verse Rep. Only 3 star Spider-Gwen was truly from it. Spider-Rex, while he was in the show, wasn't really from it.
Besides, like many said already, great to see Spider-Man India as playable. I just hope his kit is creative.
I'm happy for the actor, even though he probably doesn't see anything direct for it. Deadpool and Spiderverse is all I've seen him in but I think he's great. That chai "tea" rant I thought was hilarious.
@DAZ0273 said: @revskip said: @bbigler said: @Bowgentle said: This thread is taking a weird turn, and not for the better. So you just cater to the majority, and expect everyone to just accept that there's no representation. OK. That's.. A take. Nobody explicitly said that. But no one should be surprised or offended that the majority of Marvel heroes are white American men. Over time they’ve added everyone else, but I hope they did it for the sake of a good interesting superhero, not for the sake of diversity. We have many bad Hollywood movies that put diversity over everything else. This thread was pretty thin on racial dynamics until you brought it up. I don't mind Marvel telling stories no matter what the sex/gender identity/ ethnicity/ religious background / species or planet of origin is. That they've been ahead of the curve on that front most of the time is a plus for me but not a big deal. Spider-Man India was created by Indian comic book creators back in 2004 in partnership with Marvel and the series was then reprinted by Marvel in 2005. He was created for the Indian marketplace as Marvel hoped to get a foothold there. So he wasn't created for diversity purposes but for commercial purposes. He predates Miles Morales who often got labelled as another diversity for diversity sake creation by...miles.
That's cool, didn't know that. I was aware of the Moon Girl and Dino artist being Afro-Brazilian, I always loved her work on that book. Miles was a great addition too. The only folks hung up on ethnicity and representation in comics are people who watch too much propaganda disguised as news. And that is on both sides of the fence imo.
Great characters are great characters. Don't get hung up on stuff that doesn't matter.
@GrimSkald said: @KGB said: @MultipleMan98 said: @entrailbucket said: MPQ's playerbase is significantly more international than you might expect, and Marvel itself is hugely successful and popular all over the world. Ya I'm Irish and I'm still waiting for my Banshee representation You might be luckier than you know. As a Canadian, my 2 representations are Puck and Northstar KGB There's also Wolverine, though that's still not what I'd call a lot. Certainly I'd love more Alpha Flight representation myself, I enjoyed that book.
@GrimSkald said:
There's also Wolverine, though that's still not what I'd call a lot. Certainly I'd love more Alpha Flight representation myself, I enjoyed that book.
And deadpool and sabretooth
What??? Why can’t it be both? Good interesting superheroes that are interesting in part exactly because of their diversity? Representation matters. A lot. Maybe not to you, but to a helluvalot of others it absolutely does. You’re cutting a lot of corners in your arguments here and I find it fairly offensive.
As with most things for sell, the product reflects those willing to pay for it.
Yes, representation is important and kids should see themselves in heroes.
But it's still a business and a business needs to make money to succeed.
When I was a kid most of the "nerds" reading comics or playing D&D were white males. And it usually wasn't considered cool, except by the other "nerds". I suspect this is why most of the bigger name characters were straight white males... That's who was buying the comics more than any other group, so those characters sold more comics.
Hawkeye was/is my favorite. Based on his stories.
I always enjoyed Night Thrasher. Based on his stories. I always wished he was allowed to evolve more, but he's not as old as Hawkeye so there's room for growth.
These two characters have similarities. No powers, for example, but become leaders of super heroes based on the merit of their character.
Ask anyone who Hawkeye is and they can likely answer because the MCU helped make comics mainstream... And the Avengers can't win without Clint. But anyone not a comic fan likely has no idea about most of the stuff the character has been through/achieved.
(He doesn't get much love in merchandise though because people apparently don't think a guy with a bow and arrow is very cool)
Ask anyone that's not a comic book fan who Night Thrasher is and you'll likely get a blank stare. He'd likely need an update/name change to be taken seriously in movies/TV, but most of his story would translate very well.
This name recognition isn't because one is white and one is black. It's because one got into the MCU and the other didn't.
I've been in comic shops and heard individuals asking about Black Panther clothing being informed about the latest comics for the character, only for those individuals to reply "I don't care about that mess" because they still don't care about the comics, even if the movies made the character popular, because comics are for "nerds" and kids.
Is that the same every where? Of course not.
Do people of all shapes and sizes read comics? Yes.
But to be successful the comics need to appeal to those willing to pay for the product.
I think that means telling good stories.
Others think that means having characters that look like them.
Others think diversity for the sake of diversity is the only thing that matters.
The people making comics need to print what sells to stay in business.
I say all this because I don't think it's as simple as assuming racism/bigotry if most characters look a certain way and every social group isn't represented equally in every market.
It's about money. That includes big corporations "supporting" minority groups. It's great that groups are getting support/recognition, but many of them are just following the marketing trends to make money.
Personal notes: my grandson is mixed (white/Hispanic/black) but passes as African American. He loves Miles Morales and I'm so happy he has Miles to be his hero. I'm happy because a character that looks like him became more than just another character. Enough people read his stories, and watch his movies to keep him relevant and keep him available for my grandson to continue getting to know. And those people do that because the stories are worth consuming based on merit regardless of what the character looks like. And the people following Miles, buying the products, don't all look like Miles.
And that's the point.
My grandson has a hero that looks like him because lots of people, who don't look like him, enjoy the same stories about the same hero. And that's why I think the stories are the most important part... Because without good stories, the character wouldn't engage the audience in the same way.
As for the actual topic of this thread:
I think Spider Man India fits well in many ways for the timing of this release, but I also think he'll suffer some backlash due to the overwhelming number of spiders in the game... Something every spider will get until there's a bit of a break from them... Hopefully his kit is worth playing.
@bbigler said: @Vhailorx The population of the United States is heavily white straight men, so it is a proper representation. Combine that fact with the American bravado to fight for freedom and what’s right, and it makes sense to have white American superheroes. This doesn’t mean everyone else can’t be a hero, they can, but that’s the Marvel origin.
@Vhailorx The population of the United States is heavily white straight men, so it is a proper representation. Combine that fact with the American bravado to fight for freedom and what’s right, and it makes sense to have white American superheroes. This doesn’t mean everyone else can’t be a hero, they can, but that’s the Marvel origin.
Just. . .wow. I vehemently disagree with almost every sentiment expressed in this statement, but don't think I can respond in any detail without going WAY off the topic Spider-man India. So maybe it's best to just walk slowly out of the thread and deal with this topic somewhere else if necessary.
Huh, I thought Miles was from Ultimate Marvel which was ca 2000. didn't realize he was a much later addition to the ultimate universe.
In any event: I 'm shocked, SHOCKED, to learn that some of my favorite art has been made for commercial purposes. After I spend the next several hours consoling myself with a giant tea party for my vintage 3.5" star wars action figures and peppa pig plushies (on top of my teenage mutant ninja turtle comforter of course!) I will write a very sternly worded letter to Ike Perlmutter, or whoever is running marvel now, about the sanctity of the artistic expression that is free from commercial influence. That will definitely solve the problem!
Mod note: Locking thread as it has veered off-topic.