Learn from Magic The Gathering?
Comments
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Since we're talking about Magic in an MPQ forum, I'll just throw this up here, from the Sonic Secret Lair that just showed up today.
Getting back on topic, I do like the idea of the tiered lists. To take a page from Commander's recent bracket list
4 - Everyone, with supports. What we currently have.
3 - Everyone, but no supports at all.
2 - Everyone but the "meta" characters (MThor, Polaris, 4* Juggy, 5* Wilson, 3* May, Chasm, etc...) Let's say the Top 10 characters. Consider them the equivalent of the "Game Changers." Yes, defining who the "meta" characters are is key to this bracket's success, but I think we can just count the number of times a character is mentioned in the forums to get that, since all we do is complain about things 99% of the time.
We can play ascended characters in this bracket.
1 - Like bracket 2, but with unascended characters only.
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@sambrookjm said:
Since we're talking about Magic in an MPQ forum, I'll just throw this up here, from the Sonic Secret Lair that just showed up today.Getting back on topic, I do like the idea of the tiered lists. To take a page from Commander's recent bracket list
4 - Everyone, with supports. What we currently have.
3 - Everyone, but no supports at all.
2 - Everyone but the "meta" characters (MThor, Polaris, 4* Juggy, 5* Wilson, 3* May, Chasm, etc...) Let's say the Top 10 characters. Consider them the equivalent of the "Game Changers." Yes, defining who the "meta" characters are is key to this bracket's success, but I think we can just count the number of times a character is mentioned in the forums to get that, since all we do is complain about things 99% of the time.
We can play ascended characters in this bracket.
1 - Like bracket 2, but with unascended characters only.
Problem is how many brackets are there now in PvP? Say in slice 1, CL10, how many 500 player brackets are there? For 4 new options to make sense (ie 500 players each) you'd need 4 brackets currently in slice 1 CL10 and hope 500 players decided to play each new bracket. Then imagine you need the same in CL9, slice 1 and so on. I just don't think there are enough players to have 4 new game types in PvP unless we went from 5 slices down to 3 or maybe 2.
At best I could imagine rotating the 4 new options one at a time so that every 4th PvP used all 4 new game options.
KGB
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@KGB said:
@sambrookjm said:
Since we're talking about Magic in an MPQ forum, I'll just throw this up here, from the Sonic Secret Lair that just showed up today.Getting back on topic, I do like the idea of the tiered lists. To take a page from Commander's recent bracket list
4 - Everyone, with supports. What we currently have.
3 - Everyone, but no supports at all.
2 - Everyone but the "meta" characters (MThor, Polaris, 4* Juggy, 5* Wilson, 3* May, Chasm, etc...) Let's say the Top 10 characters. Consider them the equivalent of the "Game Changers." Yes, defining who the "meta" characters are is key to this bracket's success, but I think we can just count the number of times a character is mentioned in the forums to get that, since all we do is complain about things 99% of the time.
We can play ascended characters in this bracket.
1 - Like bracket 2, but with unascended characters only.
Problem is how many brackets are there now in PvP? Say in slice 1, CL10, how many 500 player brackets are there? For 4 new options to make sense (ie 500 players each) you'd need 4 brackets currently in slice 1 CL10 and hope 500 players decided to play each new bracket. Then imagine you need the same in CL9, slice 1 and so on. I just don't think there are enough players to have 4 new game types in PvP unless we went from 5 slices down to 3 or maybe 2.
At best I could imagine rotating the 4 new options one at a time so that every 4th PvP used all 4 new game options.
KGB
That's exactly the problem. There aren't enough players to fill up all these new modes. They could rotate "formats" like you said, or they could replace time slices/CL with "formats," but I think all those options would be quite controversial.
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@entrailbucket said:
@Bustapup said:
@entrailbucket said:
Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.
Yeah I'm not saying start off with 5 different modes, but the current PvP is pants, needs to change
Then the fix is to nerf the best characters and buff the worst ones, rebalance overpowered supports, etc -- the same sorts of things MPQ devs have been doing since 2013. Why does the current situation call for something so radically different?
I don't think new game modes are radically different... Or at least not more then the suggestions you just made
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@Phumade said:
@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lolI'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.
A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.
Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.
This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.
I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.
I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).
Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.
Hence why I think bans in certain modes should work... Let the meta slaves all kill eachother in one mode
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@entrailbucket said:
It's also worth noting that Wizards only bans cards that are too powerful in paper formats, because they have no other choice -- cards are printed pieces of paper that can't be changed later (ok, fine, there's the Companion mechanic, and about 2000 erratas to Time Vault, but those are very strange exceptions).In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.
No that's not completely true... Arena just saw the biggest wave of bans that matched paper not just alchemy and they did so because they needed banning
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@entrailbucket said:
@dianetics said:
@entrailbucket said:
In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.This isn't the version of the game most people play.
Cards can get limited to 1 per deck or outright banned in certain formats of the game.
Now, some of the more common formats of the game are blind opens, so bans and limits don't even matter.Vintage is the only format with a restricted list, and nobody plays Vintage anymore -- a paper Vintage deck costs about the same as a house. Unless you're talking about Commander, but Commander is really meant to be very casual and not at all hypercompetitive.
So yes, in paper Magic, cards are banned for being too good, because you can't rewrite the text on a printed card. In digital Magic, cards are rebalanced regularly. MPQ does not have a paper format though.
Standard in digital is subject to the same bans in paper.....
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@entrailbucket said:
@dianetics said:
@entrailbucket said:
In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.MPQ can take a lot from MTG because they think balance and counter at the same time. They have been doing this for 35 years.
This is also sort of an interesting take (maybe outdated?) because Wizards has been getting much worse at this over the last several years. They just banned 7 cards from Standard last month!
Lately they are pretty terrible at printing cards at an appropriate power level. What they're good at is observing the metagame, collecting data, and banning the overused, overpowered cards (cards that they've just printed, btw) from competitive play.
But part of me thinks that's ok because even if cards are banned in standard there are so many other formats they can still thrive in
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@sambrookjm said:
Since we're talking about Magic in an MPQ forum, I'll just throw this up here, from the Sonic Secret Lair that just showed up today.Getting back on topic, I do like the idea of the tiered lists. To take a page from Commander's recent bracket list
4 - Everyone, with supports. What we currently have.
3 - Everyone, but no supports at all.
2 - Everyone but the "meta" characters (MThor, Polaris, 4* Juggy, 5* Wilson, 3* May, Chasm, etc...) Let's say the Top 10 characters. Consider them the equivalent of the "Game Changers." Yes, defining who the "meta" characters are is key to this bracket's success, but I think we can just count the number of times a character is mentioned in the forums to get that, since all we do is complain about things 99% of the time.
We can play ascended characters in this bracket.
1 - Like bracket 2, but with unascended characters only.
Yes yes yes yes yes
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@Bustapup said:
@Phumade said:
@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lolI'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.
A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.
Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.
This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.
I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.
I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).
Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.
Hence why I think bans in certain modes should work... Let the metal slaves all kill eachother in one mode
His point was that we'll be able to kill whoever we want in any mode we want. Whales have everybody and we're going to have an advantage no matter what the rules or restrictions are.
Interestingly, one way of doing what you want would be to create a mode with awful/useless/no rewards -- we wouldn't bother to enter it, so it would only have players who wanted to take it easy.
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@entrailbucket said:
@Bustapup said:
@Phumade said:
@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lolI'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.
A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.
Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.
This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.
I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.
I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).
Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.
Hence why I think bans in certain modes should work... Let the metal slaves all kill eachother in one mode
His point was that we'll be able to kill whoever we want in any mode we want. Whales have everybody and we're going to have an advantage no matter what the rules or restrictions are.
Interestingly, one way of doing what you want would be to create a mode with awful/useless/no rewards -- we wouldn't bother to enter it, so it would only have players who wanted to take it easy.
I understand his point, but the formation of different modes will inevitably reveal which characters are too strong (if any) in each respective mode which could lead to certain restrictions for that mode. Also, if you're choosing to complete in a particular mode, I'd assume you have a roster capable of doing so....
I'm a whale, and I still hate the meta teams because I DON'T WANT TO BUILD those awful characters. I want somewhere else I can play with the teams I want. I don't think it's a particularly unreasonable or controversial request
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@Bustapup said:
@entrailbucket said:
@Bustapup said:
@Phumade said:
@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lolI'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.
A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.
Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.
This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.
I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.
I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).
Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.
Hence why I think bans in certain modes should work... Let the metal slaves all kill eachother in one mode
His point was that we'll be able to kill whoever we want in any mode we want. Whales have everybody and we're going to have an advantage no matter what the rules or restrictions are.
Interestingly, one way of doing what you want would be to create a mode with awful/useless/no rewards -- we wouldn't bother to enter it, so it would only have players who wanted to take it easy.
I understand his point, but the formation of different modes will inevitably reveal which characters are too strong (if any) in each respective mode which could lead to certain restrictions for that mode. Also, if you're choosing to complete in a particular mode, I'd assume you have a roster capable of doing so....
I'm a whale, and I still hate the meta teams because I DON'T WANT TO BUILD those awful characters. I want somewhere else I can play with the teams I want. I don't think it's a particularly unreasonable or controversial request
If you don't want to build "those awful characters," I'd suggest you stay away from the new 5-star Nova. She's absolutely busted.
And yeah, I'd like to be able to play with some of the less-powerful characters on my roster. But as long as the game rewards speed, that's not going to happen for the vast majority of the players.
Bring back Heroic events...and deep rosters will suddenly be more useful.
2 -
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.
There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
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@Bustapup said:
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
How are you enjoying the 'class of' PvP events?
The problem with this game vs MTG is that this game is one in which you perpetually advance your characters in power where MTG is static (the cards never change). It's far more like an RPG game like say Dungeons and Dragons. By the time you're level 20 you don't wonder why you can't use that +1 flaming sword anymore instead of your +5 holy avenger. The reason is obvious, you are facing Dragons now, not Giant Rats. If you want to go back to using your +1 Flaming Sword vs Giant Rats you should be rolling up a new character (starting a new roster - which many players do in an alternate account).
KGB
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I didn't realise we had this many Magic the Gathering fans here, do you all play that too? And no...I am not trying that out, I am having enough trouble with GoT!
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@Bustapup said:
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
Of course it's a huge problem with balancing, and the fix is to actually try to balance the characters.
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@KGB said:
@Bustapup said:
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
How are you enjoying the 'class of' PvP events?
The problem with this game vs MTG is that this game is one in which you perpetually advance your characters in power where MTG is static (the cards never change). It's far more like an RPG game like say Dungeons and Dragons. By the time you're level 20 you don't wonder why you can't use that +1 flaming sword anymore instead of your +5 holy avenger. The reason is obvious, you are facing Dragons now, not Giant Rats. If you want to go back to using your +1 Flaming Sword vs Giant Rats you should be rolling up a new character (starting a new roster - which many players do in an alternate account).
KGB
I'm enjoying the class of events. They're letting me dig out old faves and actually having matches as opposed to one-way romps
I see what you're saying about the character progression Vs cards but I think there's still room to consider some sort of format variation where certain characters are excluded.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with magic but for anyone who isn't: The logic behind a lot of MTG bans is that if a card warps the format in ways that were unexpectedly powerful and lock out other styles of play then it can be subject to a ban in "standard" but available in other formats. Surely.....SURELY characters like MThor, Polaris, Sam and/Or Juggs has done just that? And it looks like Franky may further these warping of the gameplay experience for a lot of players.
I think SHIELD SIM should stay and be MPQ version of "Historic" where anything goes but I definitely think there's room for a permanent mode where supports (and dare I say it some characters) are banned from use in addition to a permanent Balance of Power/Black Vortex event
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@entrailbucket said:
@Bustapup said:
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
Of course it's a huge problem with balancing, and the fix is to actually try to balance the characters.
Yes I agree but considering these broken characters have remained broken for (in some cases) years, we must assume the Devs don't WANT to do that. So an alternative I think are different formats or modes like I've been discussing. Let the characters stay but give the player the choice of whether they want to enter a mode and face these characters or not.
Id LOVE a mode knowing I won't be coming up against Jane and Chasm (who I think are the main problems here- Jane for her OP kit and chasm for the turn one, team wide stun and Ap Reduction)
And touching upon what I just said in another comment, chasm's AP reduction DEFINITELY warps what the game I assume was intended to be about as he frequently prevents you from using ANY abilities the entire match! Surely that's not what the game is about? Locking players out of using their teams' abilities?
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@Bustapup said:
@entrailbucket said:
@Bustapup said:
This is what I'm hoping for....more diversity in events in place of the "featured character" events.There are 383 characters in this game and I realistically get to use about 10 of them, if that.
If anybody can't see how that is a huge problem with game design and balancing then I don't know what to say....
Of course it's a huge problem with balancing, and the fix is to actually try to balance the characters.
Yes I agree but considering these broken characters have remained broken for (in some cases, years) we must assume the Devs don't WANT to do that. So an alternative I think are alternate modes like I've been discussing. Let's the characters stay but give the player the choice of whether they want to enter a mode and face these characters or not.
Id LOVE a mode knowing I won't be coming up against Jane and Chasm (who I think are the main problems here- Jane for her OP kit and chasm for the turn one, team wide stun and Ap Reduction)
And touching upon what I just said in another comment, chasm's AP reduction DEFINITELY warps what the game I assume was intended to be about as he frequently prevents you from using ANY abilities the entire match! Surely that's not what the game is about? Locking players out of using their teams' abilities??
If they don't want to balance the characters, why would they want to create these other modes? Like if they think Chasm or m'Thor is fine, why would they create some mode where they're not available?
1
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