Learn from Magic The Gathering?

Bustapup

I'm really enjoying these "Class of...." events lately! It's a breath of fresh air not constantly battling overpowered meta teams and actually getting to use old favorites like Psylocke, Ares, and Blade again (even in 3 and 4-star territory).

My Biggest Gripe: Supports Ruin the Fun

That said, these bloody supports are still a problem. Building a synergistic team is satisfying, but that enjoyment vanishes when you hit a Fantasticar giving endless AP or a LeapFrog. Supports either need a huge overhaul or to be scrapped entirely. It makes no sense that one team gets a massive, unfair advantage just because they have certain supports.

Back when synergy truly mattered, I could run teams like Magik, Shuri, and Black Panther/Silk, or Legion, Magik, and Shuri, and hold my own against stronger 5-star teams. Supports have ruined that kind of strategic play.

Learning from Magic: The Gathering – A Path to Better Modes?

I can't help but see a lot of similarities between MPQ's issues and how Magic: The Gathering handles things with its various formats, rotations, and bans. If MPQ had different modes with ban lists, the game could be so much more enjoyable. Wizards of the Coast understands that certain cards can warp the experience and bans them. Perhaps the devs here should consider something similar?

We could have modes like:

No Holds Barred: Any character, any support, any ascended.

Some Holds Barred: Any character, any ascended, but no supports.

Balance of Power and Black Vortex A mode focused on balanced matchups (would need more thought).

Tiered Play: Modes specifically for 1-4 stars, and another just for 5 stars.

These are just initial ideas, and I'm sure even better modes could be invented with proper brainstorming.

The current PvP featured character events are a complete bore and a waste of time – 99% of the time, the "featured character" just sits there while Juggs and Sam do all the work. They should be scrapped and replaced with something more fun where you can actually use more of the roster you've spent years building.

Thoughts?

bluewolf

First, as I assume you know, they messed up again on executing their plan to ban the Annoying Four supports in pvp and the Leapfrog, Car, Copter and Arrow are all in 2014 but shouldn't be active.

They have in the past, and more recently, talked about tweaking supports and which ones are where etc. Even talked about some PVPs with no supports, in the beginning.

They have also said that Unity will allow them to make new events more easily and give them more design room due to being easier to build. That said, design is always easier to envision than execute and plan but I hope they do explore options for PVP.

Issues with tier play: Ascended characters are seen in game as being in that tier as far as I know? Are you saying you want a PVP for just 1* base characters? or 1-4? would that lock out your 4-5 Polaris for example? You either lock out the metas who are 5s or you would have the meta 4s who are ascended in all your matches. Or meta 4s.

The Class of PVPs are interesting because they obviously force you to use people you never would otherwise, but also it's probably not much fun for newer players who likely barely champ most of the older toons since there are 377 characters etc.

Supports in PVP were always going to make things....well, what they are. We told them. They did it anyway because they needed (and still need) to find a way to reverse revenue decline and increasing demand/use for existing items is the simplest way to try to do that. And presumably it was relatively easy to execute in the old code since they did it.

Maybe Unity will open up a lot of exploratory space for design that they take advantage of. But the teams is already running at capacity so I am at best cautiously optimistic.

Bustapup

I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lol

I'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.

A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.

Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.

This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.

I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.

I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).

DAZ0273

@bluewolf said:
First, as I assume you know, they messed up again on executing their plan to ban the Annoying Four supports in pvp and the Leapfrog, Car, Copter and Arrow are all in 2014 but shouldn't be active.

They have in the past, and more recently, talked about tweaking supports and which ones are where etc. Even talked about some PVPs with no supports, in the beginning.

They have also said that Unity will allow them to make new events more easily and give them more design room due to being easier to build. That said, design is always easier to envision than execute and plan but I hope they do explore options for PVP.

Issues with tier play: Ascended characters are seen in game as being in that tier as far as I know? Are you saying you want a PVP for just 1* base characters? or 1-4? would that lock out your 4-5 Polaris for example? You either lock out the metas who are 5s or you would have the meta 4s who are ascended in all your matches. Or meta 4s.

The Class of PVPs are interesting because they obviously force you to use people you never would otherwise, but also it's probably not much fun for newer players who likely barely champ most of the older toons since there are 377 characters etc.

Supports in PVP were always going to make things....well, what they are. We told them. They did it anyway because they needed (and still need) to find a way to reverse revenue decline and increasing demand/use for existing items is the simplest way to try to do that. And presumably it was relatively easy to execute in the old code since they did it.

Maybe Unity will open up a lot of exploratory space for design that they take advantage of. But the teams is already running at capacity so I am at best cautiously optimistic.

Lol, how does this happen? Maybe they need to label the "Disable Supports" button more clearly and have a reminder set via Alexa?

entrailbucket

Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.

The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.

DAZ0273

I mean one of the things that these PvP's do establish is why we don't use Nick Fury unless we are forced to. I like the trip down nostalgia lane but these matches actually take time to complete! Well they do for me, not got around to ascending any of these 4* yet!

Bustapup

@DAZ0273 said:
I mean one of the things that these PvP's do establish is why we don't use Nick Fury unless we are forced to. I like the trip down nostalgia lane but these matches actually take time to complete! Well they do for me, not got around to ascending any of these 4* yet!

I like that they're not over in 2 turns though, gives you time to work into it and enjoy the characters

Bustapup

@entrailbucket said:
Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.

The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.

Yeah I'm not saying start off with 5 different modes, but the current PvP is pants, needs to change

entrailbucket

@Bustapup said:

@entrailbucket said:
Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.

The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.

Yeah I'm not saying start off with 5 different modes, but the current PvP is pants, needs to change

Then the fix is to nerf the best characters and buff the worst ones, rebalance overpowered supports, etc -- the same sorts of things MPQ devs have been doing since 2013. Why does the current situation call for something so radically different?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@Bustapup said:

@entrailbucket said:
Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.

The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.

Yeah I'm not saying start off with 5 different modes, but the current PvP is pants, needs to change

Then the fix is to nerf the best characters and buff the worst ones, rebalance overpowered supports, etc -- the same sorts of things MPQ devs have been doing since 2013. Why does the current situation call for something so radically different?

They aren’t that great at it though are they? I mean Chasm aside. And they take a random approach. Throw a dart style. Just imagine if they buffed 2* Cap. They would give him an extra shield for his yellow and plus 12 damage for red. And yet just a tier above, there is Namor and Aunt May.

Phumade

@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lol

I'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.

A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.

Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.

This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.

I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.

I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).

Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bustapup said:

@entrailbucket said:
Formats aren't a bad idea, but remember that Wizards didn't create all those formats in one shot -- it started with one split (Type 1 and Type 2) and evolved to add more over the years as they became necessary.

The question I have is: are there enough interested players to support a lower-power format? The game's mechanics strongly incentivize playing as fast as possible, and unless they change, it'll be tough to get players to choose the new format. Remember PvP is player vs player -- they can only match you with other players that exist! -- so unless a large number of players choose the new format, the game won't work very well.

Yeah I'm not saying start off with 5 different modes, but the current PvP is pants, needs to change

Then the fix is to nerf the best characters and buff the worst ones, rebalance overpowered supports, etc -- the same sorts of things MPQ devs have been doing since 2013. Why does the current situation call for something so radically different?

They aren’t that great at it though are they? I mean Chasm aside. And they take a random approach. Throw a dart style. Just imagine if they buffed 2* Cap. They would give him an extra shield for his yellow and plus 12 damage for red. And yet just a tier above, there is Namor and Aunt May.

Honestly? When they actually do stuff, they're not terrible at it. The problem is that post-Gambit, they really don't bother actually doing stuff, and now there's this huge backlog of problems.

entrailbucket

It's also worth noting that Wizards only bans cards that are too powerful in paper formats, because they have no other choice -- cards are printed pieces of paper that can't be changed later (ok, fine, there's the Companion mechanic, and about 2000 erratas to Time Vault, but those are very strange exceptions).

In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.

dianetics

@entrailbucket said:
In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.

This isn't the version of the game most people play.

Cards can get limited to 1 per deck or outright banned in certain formats of the game.
Now, some of the more common formats of the game are blind opens, so bans and limits don't even matter.

MPQ can take a lot from MTG because they think balance and counter at the same time. They have been doing this for 35 years.

BCS doesn't actually seem to care about balance. They are trying to squeeze as much power out of the "power budget" without regard to the game now. I don't think they actually even care about it at all unless there is to much pushback.

entrailbucket

@dianetics said:

@entrailbucket said:
In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.

This isn't the version of the game most people play.

Cards can get limited to 1 per deck or outright banned in certain formats of the game.
Now, some of the more common formats of the game are blind opens, so bans and limits don't even matter.

Vintage is the only format with a restricted list, and nobody plays Vintage anymore -- a paper Vintage deck costs about the same as a house. Unless you're talking about Commander, but Commander is really meant to be very casual and not at all hypercompetitive.

So yes, in paper Magic, cards are banned for being too good, because you can't rewrite the text on a printed card. In digital Magic, cards are rebalanced regularly. MPQ does not have a paper format though.

entrailbucket

@dianetics said:

@entrailbucket said:
In Magic's digital formats, if a card is too strong or too weak, they (gasp!) rebalance it, and they do this stuff pretty regularly.

MPQ can take a lot from MTG because they think balance and counter at the same time. They have been doing this for 35 years.

This is also sort of an interesting take (maybe outdated?) because Wizards has been getting much worse at this over the last several years. They just banned 7 cards from Standard last month!

Lately they are pretty terrible at printing cards at an appropriate power level. What they're good at is observing the metagame, collecting data, and banning the overused, overpowered cards (cards that they've just printed, btw) from competitive play.

BriMan2222

@Phumade said:

@Bustapup said:
I didnt know supports were supposed to be deactivated, no eye roll. Just disable them for gods sake!! lol

I'm incredibly frustrated by the game's stagnant PvP meta, which is dominated by rigid "meta rules" and overpowered "supports." This severely limits player choice and the fun of building diverse teams. I want to use my extensive roster effectively, not be forced into "Story Mode" just to play with characters I've invested in.

A major issue is the rapid obsolescence of lower-tier characters. Once I've invested in higher-power characters, my 1, 2, 3, and even 4-star characters quickly become useless unless ascended. This is a huge problem, as these make up most players' collections.

Even with 52 champed 5-star characters, including top-tier ones, I'm constantly outmatched and frustrated in PvP. The meta relies heavily on ascended Polaris, Juggernaut, M'Baku, or extremely high-level Omega Red/Chasm combinations. I don't want to invest resources into characters I dislike with poor mechanics, like Juggernaut, Chasm, or Omega Red, even if it means losing. While I have champed MThor/Bill to try the Polaris combo, it's boring and often still loses to the dominant teams.

This makes PvP deeply unsatisfying; I'm essentially locked out unless I'm willing to endure constant, frustrating defeats, often dying after just one turn despite having high-level 5-star characters. Facing the same overpowered, support-buffed teams repeatedly drains all enjoyment from what should be a core game mode.

I don't know exactly how it looks, but my proposed solution is to move away from the current "featured character PvP" model. By introducing new, more varied game modes, such as a "4-star only PvP" that excludes ascended characters, the game could foster an environment where a wider array of characters becomes viable, offering a more inclusive and engaging experience for everyone.

I'd love Balance of Power and Black Vortex to be permanent game modes accompanied by a few others where certain restrictions apply (4* only would exclude ascended polaris) but the "no holds barred" mode would still allow people to use their OP meta teams against other OP meta teams (and let's be honest, we already know that would be the most boring, stagnant mode of the lot).

Hehe, My only comment is be careful what you wish for. The whales have very complete rosters. From experience, the more limited/restricted the rules. The easier it is for the whales to compete and play.

He's right you know. I wouldn't call myself a whale, but I am sure I'm having a much easier time in the class of 2014 pvp running 3a5 Thor, 2a5 Ares, and 4a5 Jane thor all boosted around lvl 600 than the majority of players that I'm seeing running lower leveled nick fury, elektra, and jane.

toecutter3095

Digital MTG formats also have format-specific ban lists and do not exclusively use re-balancing to solve problems with degenerate cards.

entrailbucket

@toecutter3095 said:
Digital MTG formats also have format-specific ban lists and do not exclusively use re-balancing to solve problems with degenerate cards.

Alchemy has 3 cards suspended and they're all pretty recent. Historic has quite a few bans, I guess, but that's probably because they can't figure out a way to rebalance, say, fetchlands, without making them something else entirely.

But anyway I guess I'm confused about why we want MPQ to start doing formats and power level bans instead of rebalancing. If the idea is to create high-power and low-power formats, the thing you have to understand about Magic is that almost nobody plays the high power formats, when compared to low power ones. The prizes for high power events are paltry and events themselves are very rare.

Personally, if I have a choice between a PvP format that has Polaris and supports, and one where all that stuff is banned, I'm picking the one that has the fewest players, so I can get the best placement.

dianetics

@entrailbucket said:
Vintage is the only format with a restricted list, and nobody plays Vintage anymore -- a paper Vintage deck costs about the same as a house. Unless you're talking about Commander, but Commander is really meant to be very casual and not at all hypercompetitive.

So yes, in paper Magic, cards are banned for being too good, because you can't rewrite the text on a printed card. In digital Magic, cards are rebalanced regularly. MPQ does not have a paper format though.

I haven't played MTG competitively since about 97. My standard deck is probably worth more than a house now.

MTG Arena is still far behind paper AFAIK. It's possible more people play digital but the actual real competition is still in person on paper (covid era aside).
The most common forms of the competitive game are Draft and Standard for tournaments.

I don't think there are longtime or serious MTG players that are using Arena as their benchmark.
Pretty sure Arena is the launch point to the wider game and not the end point for competition.
If there are current day high level MTG tournament players here to refute me please inform me.

All of this doesn't even matter since MPQ is digital only. The format of the game is completely different. MPQ is closer to something like Dota or LoL where multiple champions with a few power are used in a match.

Those games are live balanced though. But, you don't have to farm and develop those characters for months to use them competitively.

In this game, with how it is played, and how resources are earned you can't use those models. It wouldn't work over the long run.

entrailbucket

@dianetics said:

@entrailbucket said:
Vintage is the only format with a restricted list, and nobody plays Vintage anymore -- a paper Vintage deck costs about the same as a house. Unless you're talking about Commander, but Commander is really meant to be very casual and not at all hypercompetitive.

So yes, in paper Magic, cards are banned for being too good, because you can't rewrite the text on a printed card. In digital Magic, cards are rebalanced regularly. MPQ does not have a paper format though.

I haven't played MTG competitively since about 97. My standard deck is probably worth more than a house now.

MTG Arena is still far behind paper AFAIK. It's possible more people play digital but the actual real competition is still in person on paper (covid era aside).
The most common forms of the competitive game are Draft and Standard for tournaments.

I don't think there are longtime or serious MTG players that are using Arena as their benchmark.
Pretty sure Arena is the launch point to the wider game and not the end point for competition.
If there are current day high level MTG tournament players here to refute me please inform me.

All of this doesn't even matter since MPQ is digital only. The format of the game is completely different. MPQ is closer to something like Dota or LoL where multiple champions with a few power are used in a match.

Those games are live balanced though. But, you don't have to farm and develop those characters for months to use them competitively.

In this game, with how it is played, and how resources are earned you can't use those models. It wouldn't work over the long run.

I'm not a high level tournament player but I keep track of it. More people play digital but competition is still on paper. Draft and Standard are still the competitive formats. The actual most popular format now is Commander, which is made for casual noncompetitive play.

I agree that none of this matters to MPQ. The lesson MPQ devs can learn from Wizards, Riot, and Valve, is to actually care about balance, then do something about it.