Can‘t equip supports in season sim

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

Who knows? Right now it's only SIM. It is so easy to get the 50 wins and be done that I think people don't care. If this were extended to PVP, I could see more outrage. And, anybody who actually spent time and effort (and money) to get the supports to 5* might also be quite upset.

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

I see alot more people complaining about not being able to get through leapfrog or being wiped out by a crazy copter cascade than I have seen anyone mention enjoying them, so my guess is that more people will be happy to no longer have to deal with them than there are people that really loved using them.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

There was still plenty of lingering outrage that supports were in PvP at all.

Banning any will just result in everyone running the next most optimal team and setup.

PvP and Sim will look more like LRs, but with more 'subtle' supports, supports that accelerate rather than frustrate. Offense enhance rather than defense enhance. And things that enhance offense, while doing little to nothing for defense, have always been winners for players and the game overall. (unless they are too egregious ....)

So long as that minmax'd solution favors offense, the masses will be mollified, even if they are taking more hits.

The one thing that ticks players off more than taking incoming fire is ... longer slower matches / taking more damage / wiping more often ... i.e., any kind of frustration in match / on offense.

ArchusMonk

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

Personally, I like this change because my play style for PvP is to kill as fast as possible and be done. Leapfrog was pretty manageable, but if it was on the other team, I had to find out who had it equipped. Then I had to decide who I wanted to send away or make invis. Then I had to hope things went according to plan. That took some time and thought. Now I can just go back to simply targeting the biggest threat on every team for the most part. Less thought, faster play is a win-win for me.

Do you think this is a good change? I’ve seen you argue here before that requiring less thought and less strategy is bad for the game, so I’m genuinely curious how you feel about this change since it definitely simplifies PvP game play.

entrailbucket

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

Personally, I like this change because my play style for PvP is to kill as fast as possible and be done. Leapfrog was pretty manageable, but if it was on the other team, I had to find out who had it equipped. Then I had to decide who I wanted to send away or make invis. Then I had to hope things went according to plan. That took some time and thought. Now I can just go back to simply targeting the biggest threat on every team for the most part. Less thought, faster play is a win-win for me.

Do you think this is a good change? I’ve seen you argue here before that requiring less thought and less strategy is bad for the game, so I’m genuinely curious how you feel about this change since it definitely simplifies PvP game play.

The thing is...the Leapfrog metagame actually didn't end up requiring more thought or more strategy!

On offense, your choice was basically "run Leapfrog or get demolished," so (potentially) removing it will open up more strategic support options. On defense, or rather when attacking into Leapfrog, all the best teams were able to just ignore it -- that's what made them the best teams! Tons of stuff wasn't viable, or wasn't very good, because it just couldn't beat Leapfrog consistently.

So I had to be really careful and play around Leapfrog all the time, and had to run it or I'd get smashed by nobodies, but the "meta" teams could mostly ignore it because that's why those teams were "meta."

I do think there's some danger that very fast teams using free AP supports to get off huge damage will take over, but generally those are going to be the boosted guys and not "meta" characters, and I'm totally fine with that.

For example, when 1* Juggernaut is boosted, you can run an iron person + Arc Reactor and basically guaranteed oneshot their best character on your turn0/defensive turn1. This wasn't viable in the Leapfrog metagame because they'd just hide and heal back to full. I don't know if we'll see that specific team because folks hate using health packs, but it was the kind of thing that you'd never do before.

Chrynos1989

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:
IMO leapfrog and arrow were super annoying and I only used them because not using them made you a bigger target, so I'm not sad to see them go. As for the meta, I'm guessing everyone will just change Juggernaut's support to implanted bomb or omipotence city and they'll still be perfectly viable, just less annoying to fight. Even in lightning round with no supports it still was not uncommon for the enemy team to get a lucky cascade that blew up your team before you can do anything.

Bingo. Implanted Bomb on Juggs and Low Level AI on Sam. Honestly, removing the other supports from SIM doesn't really change much. In fact, there were times where Thanos Copter would actually ruin a cascade by doing its swap thing.

I expected so much more outrage!

I guess this means it's a good change then?

Yup, just the missing communication again, but then what Else did I expect…

KGB

Also I thought JuggerSam (Or anything Omega Red) rendered Leapfrog meaningless so not sure why it needs to be banned.

KGB

Borstock

@KGB said:
Also I thought JuggerSam (Or anything Omega Red) rendered Leapfrog meaningless so not sure why it needs to be banned.

KGB

Not sure why you thought that. It was still everywhere all the time.

JoeHandle

@KGB said:
Also I thought JuggerSam (Or anything Omega Red) rendered Leapfrog meaningless so not sure why it needs to be banned.

KGB

Because it was much complained about when supports were added to PvP, people w/o gripes don't sound off, and notes don't get updated, and yes, it was still an "issue" for the bulk of the playerbase who had yet to access the Juggs/Wilson combo.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:
Also I thought JuggerSam (Or anything Omega Red) rendered Leapfrog meaningless so not sure why it needs to be banned.

KGB

Some players don't have those teams, or don't want to use them.

WhiteBomber

Copter, Car and Frog were all clearly over powered, however, taking something away that people grinded for many months to acquire... I love this game but continue to have zero faith in the decision quality of those behind the wheel.

I keep looking for reasons to give you money, and you keep shipping reasons not to. If you don't know how to balance your game, ask the people who know it better than you, or at least try to balance... in small increments, don't just push the delete button.

Hopefully they get brought back in a more balanced form, rather than leaving us with some awkward "you can use these supports here, but not these ones".

Borstock

Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

entrailbucket

@Borstock said:
Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

They always do this, though. They let Chasm eat the metagame forever before they did anything about him. Every nerf or change has come months or years late. I don't know why they can't get faster at this -- it'd save all the conspiracy theories about "pump and dump scams" or whatever.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

They always do this, though. They let Chasm eat the metagame forever before they did anything about him. Every nerf or change has come months or years late. I don't know why they can't get faster at this -- it'd save all the conspiracy theories about "pump and dump scams" or whatever.

After how many years of this cycle are they no longer theories?

Afer a decade of yearly cycles of letting players chase a thing or things only to belatedly cut them down and say, "oh come now, you got to enjoy them for a while ... *wink*" .... ?

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

They always do this, though. They let Chasm eat the metagame forever before they did anything about him. Every nerf or change has come months or years late. I don't know why they can't get faster at this -- it'd save all the conspiracy theories about "pump and dump scams" or whatever.

After how many years of this cycle are they no longer theories?

Afer a decade of yearly cycles of letting players chase a thing or things only to belatedly cut them down and say, "oh come now, you got to enjoy them for a while ... *wink*" .... ?

I think they're just bad at this, not malicious.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

They always do this, though. They let Chasm eat the metagame forever before they did anything about him. Every nerf or change has come months or years late. I don't know why they can't get faster at this -- it'd save all the conspiracy theories about "pump and dump scams" or whatever.

After how many years of this cycle are they no longer theories?

Afer a decade of yearly cycles of letting players chase a thing or things only to belatedly cut them down and say, "oh come now, you got to enjoy them for a while ... *wink*" .... ?

I think they're just bad at this, not malicious.

While that is what Hanlon's Razor would insist until proven otherwise, the effect is the same.

WilliamK1983

Quantum Realm is malfunctioning. I have it L4 which boasts a 59.55% chance of for 5 ap at start. It's only giving 1 now. No other supports I have equipped give ap at the start and I'm not using any boosts. Android mobile.

I'll be honest, none of the problems are coming as a surprise. The only surprise for me was things didn't go boom sooner. Too many things have been half assed and they can't hide it anymore.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
Targeting those supports feels like an admission that they're broken in PvP. And we've known that for some time. So, it also feels like an admission that they did nothing to fix it for a long time while knowing they were broken. I kind of hate that.

They always do this, though. They let Chasm eat the metagame forever before they did anything about him. Every nerf or change has come months or years late. I don't know why they can't get faster at this -- it'd save all the conspiracy theories about "pump and dump scams" or whatever.

After how many years of this cycle are they no longer theories?

Afer a decade of yearly cycles of letting players chase a thing or things only to belatedly cut them down and say, "oh come now, you got to enjoy them for a while ... *wink*" .... ?

I think they're just bad at this, not malicious.

While that is what Hanlon's Razor would insist until proven otherwise, the effect is the same.

Exactly. It's infuriating for those of us who want to believe they're acting in good faith, because yeah, this is exactly how they'd act if they were running a superhero match-3 pump and dump scheme.

BriMan2222

Sidewinder was nerfed very quickly, wouldn't they have let him run amok for a year or two if that was part of the plan?

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

Hopefully they get brought back in a more balanced form, rather than leaving us with some awkward "you can use these supports here, but not these ones".

Just want to point out that for several years after they created them, every support was "you can use these here (in PvE) but not here (in PvP)," and for whatever reason, a bunch of people seem to want to go back to that nonsensical scheme.

Of course, this current setup somehow makes even less sense, so I also hope they will rebalance the banned stuff, whatever that ends up being.