Getting bored

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:
When you think about how many good 4s we have had since it is ridiculous that Polaris is still no.1. What sort of power budget did she have to end up with the set of abilities they gave her? I guess this one went to 11?

It's really weird because there was a long period where they kept trying to give us Polaris counters as 4*, and none of them did much of anything to reduce her usage (any actual counter would need to be stun-immune, otherwise they won't do anything). That usually means they're going to end up doing something, but they just never did.

When she was a 4* with like 12 HP she was easy to ignore, but at 5* she's got 150k HP (plus leapfrog now to protect her) and her passives hit you for like 200k unboosted.

DAZ0273

Also given how long she has been around people have her at high levels. Obviously Sam/Juggs have become a problem (that I admit I contribute to) but Sam is barely 3 months old. Polaris being so out of control is way past due looking at.

WhiteBomber

@DAZ0273 said:
Ok, no, Jeff is useless.

This actually made me LoL. Poor Jeff.

As for that team; how many BRB Polaris did you come up against in that event? I saw none... It's unfortunate you keep fighting only the same teams, I clearly have a different experience.

There is no doubt that Polaris is out of balance, but there has to be at least 10 plus characters who love shutting her down. I gotta say though, Magik and Mephisto are NOT who I would have brought to that fight. In fact, you probably brought 2 of the worst characters to hit BRB (both endless tick damage characters against BRB blue??).

Your frustration about fighting the same team over and over again is valid (assuming it's as bad as you say), but the team you chose honestly deserves to get dumped on by that team.

WhiteBomber

If you want to play Magik5, go Toni Ho, she actually breathes some life in to the not so good Magik5. Though, I'm still not sure I would take them against BRB Polaris without someone who counters SAPs. Toni stun is probably enough.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Ok, no, Jeff is useless.

This actually made me LoL. Poor Jeff.

As for that team; how many BRB Polaris did you come up against in that event? I saw none... It's unfortunate you keep fighting only the same teams, I clearly have a different experience.

There is no doubt that Polaris is out of balance, but there has to be at least 10 plus characters who love shutting her down. I gotta say though, Magik and Mephisto are NOT who I would have brought to that fight. In fact, you probably brought 2 of the worst characters to hit BRB (both endless tick damage characters against BRB blue??).

Your frustration about fighting the same team over and over again is valid (assuming it's as bad as you say), but the team you chose honestly deserves to get dumped on by that team.

He's punching down 200 levels or so. He's got a lvl500 Mephisto and a lvl572 Magik vs what looks like 450s. Why shouldn't he be able to steamroll a significantly lower level, unboosted team with the synergistic characters he's using?

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Ok, no, Jeff is useless.

This actually made me LoL. Poor Jeff.

As for that team; how many BRB Polaris did you come up against in that event? I saw none... It's unfortunate you keep fighting only the same teams, I clearly have a different experience.

There is no doubt that Polaris is out of balance, but there has to be at least 10 plus characters who love shutting her down. I gotta say though, Magik and Mephisto are NOT who I would have brought to that fight. In fact, you probably brought 2 of the worst characters to hit BRB (both endless tick damage characters against BRB blue??).

Your frustration about fighting the same team over and over again is valid (assuming it's as bad as you say), but the team you chose honestly deserves to get dumped on by that team.

He's punching down 200 levels or so. He's got a lvl500 Mephisto and a lvl572 Magik vs what looks like 450s. Why shouldn't he be able to steamroll a significantly lower level, unboosted team with the synergistic characters he's using?

This is also just one fight. Who's to say he wasn't just unlucky? If he ran that same fight 9 more times, maybe he would win the next 9. I typically steam roll mthor/polaris or polaris/brb teams in pvp pretty easily, but every once in a while they get that super mega lucky cascade that lets them go crazy on their first turn.

One loss against a lower level team in a vacuum doesn't necessarily mean that team is overly powerful. Sometimes RNG is just gonna RNG.

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@WhiteBomber said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Ok, no, Jeff is useless.

This actually made me LoL. Poor Jeff.

As for that team; how many BRB Polaris did you come up against in that event? I saw none... It's unfortunate you keep fighting only the same teams, I clearly have a different experience.

There is no doubt that Polaris is out of balance, but there has to be at least 10 plus characters who love shutting her down. I gotta say though, Magik and Mephisto are NOT who I would have brought to that fight. In fact, you probably brought 2 of the worst characters to hit BRB (both endless tick damage characters against BRB blue??).

Your frustration about fighting the same team over and over again is valid (assuming it's as bad as you say), but the team you chose honestly deserves to get dumped on by that team.

He's punching down 200 levels or so. He's got a lvl500 Mephisto and a lvl572 Magik vs what looks like 450s. Why shouldn't he be able to steamroll a significantly lower level, unboosted team with the synergistic characters he's using?

This is also just one fight. Who's to say he wasn't just unlucky? If he ran that same fight 9 more times, maybe he would win the next 9. I typically steam roll mthor/polaris or polaris/brb teams in pvp pretty easily, but every once in a while they get that super mega lucky cascade that lets them go crazy on their first turn.

One loss against a lower level team in a vacuum doesn't necessarily mean that team is overly powerful. Sometimes RNG is just gonna RNG.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder if the guys he's running can win consistently against the strong 450s, and this is just an outlier.

Borstock

@Bustapup said:
And for context here, my Mephisto is level 502 equipped with 4* Omnipotence City, Magik is boosted to 572 and using tex mex to protect her tiles (which invariably get replaced with enemy special tiles because despite my best efforts I couldn't get enough red or pink in time to stop the AI doing this) and my red guardian is 311 but boosted for the event.

Neither bill nor Polaris are boosted and I'm about to start the Toni Ho pvp and look who my first match up is.....!

WHAT IS THE POINT of having a roster like mine, building it, getting supports for it if every single time I face a team like this I have to just go back to using Morbius with 5* shaw (who murder that time every time) it's boring.

But those aren't your only two options if your roster really is built up.

I disagree with the narrative around this specific example. Having to counterpick is fine. And, honestly, you probably do steamroll that team if supports aren't a thing. This hurt because you watched the AI play with itself for 45 seconds. But that isn't specific to this team. At all. It isn't even specific to special spammers. You'd be just as dead if M'Baku did that to you.

entrailbucket

@Borstock said:

@Bustapup said:
And for context here, my Mephisto is level 502 equipped with 4* Omnipotence City, Magik is boosted to 572 and using tex mex to protect her tiles (which invariably get replaced with enemy special tiles because despite my best efforts I couldn't get enough red or pink in time to stop the AI doing this) and my red guardian is 311 but boosted for the event.

Neither bill nor Polaris are boosted and I'm about to start the Toni Ho pvp and look who my first match up is.....!

WHAT IS THE POINT of having a roster like mine, building it, getting supports for it if every single time I face a team like this I have to just go back to using Morbius with 5* shaw (who murder that time every time) it's boring.

But those aren't your only two options if your roster really is built up.

I disagree with the narrative around this specific example. Having to counterpick is fine. And, honestly, you probably do steamroll that team if supports aren't a thing. This hurt because you watched the AI play with itself for 45 seconds. But that isn't specific to this team. At all. It isn't even specific to special spammers. You'd be just as dead if M'Baku did that to you.

If having to counterpick is fine, then what specific counter will players have to use to beat the team he chose? Is his team particularly weak to Polaris but very strong against everything else?

Borstock

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:

@Bustapup said:
And for context here, my Mephisto is level 502 equipped with 4* Omnipotence City, Magik is boosted to 572 and using tex mex to protect her tiles (which invariably get replaced with enemy special tiles because despite my best efforts I couldn't get enough red or pink in time to stop the AI doing this) and my red guardian is 311 but boosted for the event.

Neither bill nor Polaris are boosted and I'm about to start the Toni Ho pvp and look who my first match up is.....!

WHAT IS THE POINT of having a roster like mine, building it, getting supports for it if every single time I face a team like this I have to just go back to using Morbius with 5* shaw (who murder that time every time) it's boring.

But those aren't your only two options if your roster really is built up.

I disagree with the narrative around this specific example. Having to counterpick is fine. And, honestly, you probably do steamroll that team if supports aren't a thing. This hurt because you watched the AI play with itself for 45 seconds. But that isn't specific to this team. At all. It isn't even specific to special spammers. You'd be just as dead if M'Baku did that to you.

If having to counterpick is fine, then what specific counter will players have to use to beat the team he chose? Is his team particularly weak to Polaris but very strong against everything else?

I'm not calling the game balanced, either. But honestly, without supports, the limited extent to which the user would defend their team AS a counterpick would probably be enough to win.

But if I see BrB or Groot, I immediately go Chasm to avoid seeing those tiles start on the board. Its not hard. And it's not unreasonable as long as Chasm can also get beat.

entrailbucket

What about the same situation, backwards? It's Polaris boost week and mine is lvl572 with the boost. I also have a lvl500 Beta Ray Bill.

Which lvl450 teams do I need to avoid because they're too strong for me to beat? Which lvl450 teams will I wipe to on offense?

WhiteBomber

@entrailbucket said:
What about the same situation, backwards? It's Polaris boost week and mine is lvl572 with the boost. I also have a lvl500 Beta Ray Bill.

Which lvl450 teams do I need to avoid because they're too strong for me to beat? Which lvl450 teams will I wipe to on offense?

Your argument is for a game that is well balanced, but I don't think anyone is saying that this game is. Your Polaris BRB will however get destroyed on defense by anyone who has a not so great roster, and anyone with a decent roster will have multiple options to do it.

For funsies though, with that team, I might still avoid ascended Gorr, ascended Namor3 w/ Chasm / others... maybe? It's a moot point though as there are many teams that fear almost nothing on offense.

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:

@entrailbucket said:
What about the same situation, backwards? It's Polaris boost week and mine is lvl572 with the boost. I also have a lvl500 Beta Ray Bill.

Which lvl450 teams do I need to avoid because they're too strong for me to beat? Which lvl450 teams will I wipe to on offense?

Your argument is for a game that is well balanced, but I don't think anyone is saying that this game is. Your Polaris BRB will however get destroyed on defense by anyone who has a not so great roster, and anyone with a decent roster will have multiple options to do it.

For funsies though, with that team, I might still avoid ascended Gorr, ascended Namor3 w/ Chasm / others... maybe? It's a moot point though as there are many teams that fear almost nothing on offense.

Eh, I wouldn't say I'm asking for a game that's "well" balanced. Maybe a game that pays any attention at all to balance? Punching up 200 (or 400!) levels on defense is not "a little bit" out of balance. The other guy loves to point out that there's always been a "best team," but that was before we had weekly +120lvl rotating boosts.

And it's not just me asking anymore. We're getting more of these posts.

WhiteBomber

For sure, definitely not balanced, but fortunately for everyone, that lack of balance is drastically in favor of offense (the person playing).

I have to ask: During any of the previous metas, how many different meta teams were there in that generation? IE: How many different teams were people coming up against?

Previous Meta Examples:

• Chasm, iHulk
• iHulk, Okoye
• Bishop
• Gambit

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:
For sure, definitely not balanced, but fortunately for everyone, that lack of balance is drastically in favor of offense (the person playing).

I have to ask: During any of the previous metas, how many different meta teams were there in that generation? IE: How many different teams were people coming up against?

Previous Meta Examples:

• Chasm, iHulk
• iHulk, Okoye
• Bishop
• Gambit

This depends entirely on where you're at in the game. I saw a wall of Chasm/Hulk, but many players wouldn't have seen them at all. I think there's something approximating variety once you get down much, much lower in matchmaking -- players just don't have the good characters, or don't know who's good yet.

Bustapup

@WhiteBomber said:
If you want to play Magik5, go Toni Ho, she actually breathes some life in to the not so good Magik5. Though, I'm still not sure I would take them against BRB Polaris without someone who counters SAPs. Toni stun is probably enough.

So this is my point....if u can't even use her in a boosted event because she will still get stomped on my Polaris, why bother building any character that isn't meta? It's a HUGE problem with the game.

And I'll reiterate again, I know how to counter teams so saying my team deserved to be beaten is basically confirming my point, ie. To beat these teams you have to rely on the same old boring characters day in and day out. I've got a champed Goblin, unlocked 5 covers for Toni and I've tried with brand, Wanda etc ....characters who SHOULD sync with Magik and it makes zero difference.

My magik is high level and she is boosted so and you're STILL telling me that she should be wiped out in turn one?

Scofie

@Bustapup said:

@WhiteBomber said:
If you want to play Magik5, go Toni Ho, she actually breathes some life in to the not so good Magik5. Though, I'm still not sure I would take them against BRB Polaris without someone who counters SAPs. Toni stun is probably enough.

So this is my point....if u can't even use her in a boosted event because she will still get stomped on my Polaris, why bother building any character that isn't meta? It's a HUGE problem with the game.

And I'll reiterate again, I know how to counter teams so saying my team deserved to be beaten is basically confirming my point, ie. To beat these teams you have to rely on the same old boring characters day in and day out. I've got a champed Goblin, unlocked 5 covers for Toni and I've tried with brand, Wanda etc ....characters who SHOULD sync with Magik and it makes zero difference.

My magik is high level and she is boosted so and you're STILL telling me that she should be wiped out in turn one?

Using the "rock/paper/scissors" analogy though, if the person you're playing against keeps using rocks, it doesn't matter how good your scissors are. At some point you have to use paper and hope your next opponent is a bit more interesting.

The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

DeNappa

Scofie said:
The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).

Match #1: use saved team BRB/Polaris.
Match #2: use saved team Sam/Juggs
Repeat.

entrailbucket

@Scofie said:

@Bustapup said:

@WhiteBomber said:
If you want to play Magik5, go Toni Ho, she actually breathes some life in to the not so good Magik5. Though, I'm still not sure I would take them against BRB Polaris without someone who counters SAPs. Toni stun is probably enough.

So this is my point....if u can't even use her in a boosted event because she will still get stomped on my Polaris, why bother building any character that isn't meta? It's a HUGE problem with the game.

And I'll reiterate again, I know how to counter teams so saying my team deserved to be beaten is basically confirming my point, ie. To beat these teams you have to rely on the same old boring characters day in and day out. I've got a champed Goblin, unlocked 5 covers for Toni and I've tried with brand, Wanda etc ....characters who SHOULD sync with Magik and it makes zero difference.

My magik is high level and she is boosted so and you're STILL telling me that she should be wiped out in turn one?

Using the "rock/paper/scissors" analogy though, if the person you're playing against keeps using rocks, it doesn't matter how good your scissors are. At some point you have to use paper and hope your next opponent is a bit more interesting.

The problem here is not just in the game, it's in the choices players make in order to win. I think the only way to change player behaviour is to change the way that you win, or implement factors that affect your score. For example:

• No Points lost if you lose on offense.
• A Points reduction for winning using the same team on consecutive turns, with a scaled reduction (e.g. 10% per turn).
• A Points reduction for the number of times that team has been run in the event across all players.
• Can attack with a team you've not used before in the event whilst shielded without losing your shield.

Those might drive different teams to fight. I know the new engine isn't a magic wand but I wonder if there are other things that could change the face of PvP in a way that might encourage a bit of player diversity. Any ideas welcome!

Weekly boosts should already be accomplishing this. The boost is massive -- it turns a lvl450 baby champ into a 550+ endgame character. "The wall" will still exist, because "the wall" will always exist. MPQ incentivizes you to run the strongest possible team. But "the wall" should change every single week. Why doesn't it? Why do we see the same teams over and over again for years, no matter who's boosted?

DAZ0273

The inability to punch down is a bitter pill, I agree that this really does make you feel bad and is not good for player morale.

I guess to be fair somebody always gets picked last which in this case is Jeff, so we have to make the case for the others this week. Magik and Hulk are kind'a low damage dealers but they both have a few tricks that make them worth running - Hulk getting a free true heal on transformation being one thing. I put the Power Stone on Magik and it seems to like spamming her purple power which has been useful and her red is pretty great for getting rid of enemy specials and countdowns. Then we have Hela and uhm...nice doggy? She is probably a liability against Polaris teams but at least she would punish BRB green AP generation.

So maybe this is just a bad boost week with characters who aren't really helping each other?

We still need to nerf Polaris - really just changing her power so that it doesn't proc on friendly special tiles matches would break some start of match combo's and pin her back a bit.

Coming Soon: Sam/Jugg week!