Sidewinder unannounced nerf

DAZ0273

@LavaManLee said:

@dianetics said:
He’s still very strong.
Just try running Okoye / Mephsito or ORed / Sidewinder.

This isnt a nerf into the ground. His boost is still very strong and the extra tick of damage does a lot with okoye.

Definitely disagree. This is certainly a nerf into the ground. Losing the 2 TU each turn of a match plus the huge damage nerf (especially on the ascended version) makes him unusable. And he wasn't good at defense before and he really isn't good at it now.

I'm confused how he wasn't good on defence? Doesn't he literally teleport himself and his team mates to safety?

Codex

My biggest takeaway is how fast sidewinder got nerfed. It makes me thinks that he usage and win rate must have been through the roof even more so than chasm and mthor.

And the second question is around budget. With a nerf this big shouldn't numbers somewhere else have gone up? In health or other damage numbers in the kit?

LavaManLee

@DAZ0273 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@dianetics said:
He’s still very strong.
Just try running Okoye / Mephsito or ORed / Sidewinder.

This isnt a nerf into the ground. His boost is still very strong and the extra tick of damage does a lot with okoye.

Definitely disagree. This is certainly a nerf into the ground. Losing the 2 TU each turn of a match plus the huge damage nerf (especially on the ascended version) makes him unusable. And he wasn't good at defense before and he really isn't good at it now.

I'm confused how he wasn't good on defence? Doesn't he literally teleport himself and his team mates to safety?

His health was so low that it didn't matter if running 550s. Him being gone for one (or even two turns) didn't matter that much. Way easier to down than a 550 M'Baku or 4ASc5Juggs or most anyone else boosted. I would pick on those Sidewinder teams in PVP/Sim for easy wins.

ThisisClemFandango

@Kross said:
This just gave me an idea.

How about an event that the boosted list every nerfed character, only for that event they are unnerfed.

Playing some old school Gambit again would be fun.

I'm ClemFandango and I endorse this message.

BriMan2222

@will7612 said:
Way UNFAIR for those who invested

They said here on the forum and on discord that they were going to likely nerf him further, which is much more notice than anybody got on Gambit, Bishop, OML, Worthy Cap, or Chasm.

They can change any character at any time. They've demonstrated this repeatedly AND told you they were gonna do it this time. If you went all in on Sidewinder that is a self inflicted wound.

BriMan2222

@lbiajante said:
What a load of ****! I invested in this character, and they nerfed it way too fast. The character changed the gameplay style, but they nerfed it just because the "elite" was offended by getting beaten by a noob.

The "elites" all were running him too and there are still plenty of punch up teams (MM/Coulson or Polaris/bill, or mthor/shang, or mthor/polaris, etc.)

Better they nerf him sooner than later. We all saw he was too powerful, better to cut him down now than wait a year or two like they did with bishop and chasm.

LavaManLee

@BriMan2222 said:

@will7612 said:
Way UNFAIR for those who invested

They said here on the forum and on discord that they were going to likely nerf him further, which is much more notice than anybody got on Gambit, Bishop, OML, Worthy Cap, or Chasm.

They can change any character at any time. They've demonstrated this repeatedly AND told you they were gonna do it this time. If you went all in on Sidewinder that is a self inflicted wound.

Based on previous character nerfs they had done, it is fair to say that this level of a nerf was not expected by the devs. Their previous nerfs were all surgical. This was a nuclear detonation. They did not warn they were going to nerf him to the point of unplayable.

For example, they could have lowered the match% but kept the TU from not being drained. That one-two punch completely makes him overnerfed.

BriMan2222

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@will7612 said:
Way UNFAIR for those who invested

They said here on the forum and on discord that they were going to likely nerf him further, which is much more notice than anybody got on Gambit, Bishop, OML, Worthy Cap, or Chasm.

They can change any character at any time. They've demonstrated this repeatedly AND told you they were gonna do it this time. If you went all in on Sidewinder that is a self inflicted wound.

Based on previous character nerfs they had done, it is fair to say that this level of a nerf was not expected by the devs. Their previous nerfs were all surgical. This was a nuclear detonation. They did not warn they were going to nerf him to the point of unplayable.

For example, they could have lowered the match% but kept the TU from not being drained. That one-two punch completely makes him overnerfed.

Based on previous nerfs I would have expected much more. Gambit, Bishop, OML, worthy Cap, XF wolvie, and every nerf before chasm made the character go from oppressive to unusable.

I played him and chasm this morning in PVP and didn't even realize he was nerfed until 3 or 4 matches. It seemed like I won a bit slower than normal, but still won easily. I paid attention the next match and noticed the tu ap disappearing and came to the forums to see if he was changed.

After playing several matches with him, this seems like a chasm type nerf. He is no longer a dominant force that gives you a major advantage, but he is still perfectly usable.

LavaManLee

@BriMan2222 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@will7612 said:
Way UNFAIR for those who invested

They said here on the forum and on discord that they were going to likely nerf him further, which is much more notice than anybody got on Gambit, Bishop, OML, Worthy Cap, or Chasm.

They can change any character at any time. They've demonstrated this repeatedly AND told you they were gonna do it this time. If you went all in on Sidewinder that is a self inflicted wound.

Based on previous character nerfs they had done, it is fair to say that this level of a nerf was not expected by the devs. Their previous nerfs were all surgical. This was a nuclear detonation. They did not warn they were going to nerf him to the point of unplayable.

For example, they could have lowered the match% but kept the TU from not being drained. That one-two punch completely makes him overnerfed.

Based on previous nerfs I would have expected much more. Gambit, Bishop, OML, worthy Cap, XF wolvie, and every nerf before chasm made the character go from oppressive to unusable.

I played him and chasm this morning in PVP and didn't even realize he was nerfed until 3 or 4 matches. It seemed like I won a bit slower than normal, but still won easily. I paid attention the next match and noticed the tu ap disappearing and came to the forums to see if he was changed.

After playing several matches with him, this seems like a chasm type nerf. He is no longer a dominant force that gives you a major advantage, but he is still perfectly usable.

First, all of the nerfs you mentioned (except for Bishop, I believe) came from the previous devs. These devs are much more gentle. They had nothing to do with Gambit, OML, Worthy and XF Wolverine. They did do Chasm and that was what I was expecting. A gentle nerf.

Second, not sure who you play him with, but I could tell immediately I wasn't doing the same damage with 4Asc5Juggs. And was also wondering what the heck was going on with my TUs. Maybe it's different for who you are running but he is absolutely unplayable for me.

Third, a little warning of the actual timing would have been nice. These devs have not been the best (to put it kindly) at communication and even 24 hours notice would have helped. Definitely screwed with my PVE placement (I play in S1), but that's another story.

Codex

@BriMan2222 said:

@lbiajante said:
What a load of ****! I invested in this character, and they nerfed it way too fast. The character changed the gameplay style, but they nerfed it just because the "elite" was offended by getting beaten by a noob.

The "elites" all were running him too and there are still plenty of punch up teams (MM/Coulson or Polaris/bill, or mthor/shang, or mthor/polaris, etc.)

Better they nerf him sooner than later. We all saw he was too powerful, better to cut him down now than wait a year or two like they did with bishop and chasm.

I believe there was chasm warning on discord.

Also, is the "we", including the devs? To me this another indication of how the devs don't even play their own game to realize how unbalanced this character was. This is clear case of bait and switch.

With all other nerfs they attempted to make characters to counter them before nerfing. Not the case here. Again how is this not bait and switch?

I totally understand the arguments for nerfing him, but this needs to have been on the devs to recognize it in the development process. I still have sympathy for those that sunk resources into sidewinder. This is unfair practices.

LavaManLee

When previous devs blew up 5Gambit, you had an option to sell back your Gambit for tokens. Would be nice if there was something similar to this nerf but with Ascencion, not even sure how that is possible.

skittledaddy

The nerf was inevitable, but it was a fun ride while it lasted.

bluewolf

@LavaManLee said:
When previous devs blew up 5Gambit, you had an option to sell back your Gambit for tokens. Would be nice if there was something similar to this nerf but with Ascencion, not even sure how that is possible.

They always offered an increased sell offer on prior nerfs. Nothing this time.

BriMan2222

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@will7612 said:
Way UNFAIR for those who invested

They said here on the forum and on discord that they were going to likely nerf him further, which is much more notice than anybody got on Gambit, Bishop, OML, Worthy Cap, or Chasm.

They can change any character at any time. They've demonstrated this repeatedly AND told you they were gonna do it this time. If you went all in on Sidewinder that is a self inflicted wound.

Based on previous character nerfs they had done, it is fair to say that this level of a nerf was not expected by the devs. Their previous nerfs were all surgical. This was a nuclear detonation. They did not warn they were going to nerf him to the point of unplayable.

For example, they could have lowered the match% but kept the TU from not being drained. That one-two punch completely makes him overnerfed.

Based on previous nerfs I would have expected much more. Gambit, Bishop, OML, worthy Cap, XF wolvie, and every nerf before chasm made the character go from oppressive to unusable.

I played him and chasm this morning in PVP and didn't even realize he was nerfed until 3 or 4 matches. It seemed like I won a bit slower than normal, but still won easily. I paid attention the next match and noticed the tu ap disappearing and came to the forums to see if he was changed.

After playing several matches with him, this seems like a chasm type nerf. He is no longer a dominant force that gives you a major advantage, but he is still perfectly usable.

First, all of the nerfs you mentioned (except for Bishop, I believe) came from the previous devs. These devs are much more gentle. They had nothing to do with Gambit, OML, Worthy and XF Wolverine. They did do Chasm and that was what I was expecting. A gentle nerf.

Second, not sure who you play him with, but I could tell immediately I wasn't doing the same damage with 4Asc5Juggs. And was also wondering what the heck was going on with my TUs. Maybe it's different for who you are running but he is absolutely unplayable for me.

Third, a little warning of the actual timing would have been nice. These devs have not been the best (to put it kindly) at communication and even 24 hours notice would have helped. Definitely screwed with my PVE placement (I play in S1), but that's another story.

I said, I played him with chasm in the current pvp. Like I said, I was doing less damage and the matches went slower, but not so much so that I was shocked and immediately thought something was drastically different and I was still able to kill leapfrog user (cyclops) on the initial stun. Most of those cyclops ascended, so about 50k damage needed.

BriMan2222

@LavaManLee said:
When previous devs blew up 5Gambit, you had an option to sell back your Gambit for tokens. Would be nice if there was something similar to this nerf but with Ascencion, not even sure how that is possible.

I'm pretty sure they only ever did those tokens for 5 star nerfs. When bishop and worthy cap were nerfed you could just sell them for increased iso and hp

LavaManLee

@BriMan2222 said:

@LavaManLee said:
When previous devs blew up 5Gambit, you had an option to sell back your Gambit for tokens. Would be nice if there was something similar to this nerf but with Ascencion, not even sure how that is possible.

I'm pretty sure they only ever did those tokens for 5 star nerfs. When bishop and worthy cap were nerfed you could just sell them for increased iso and hp

Yes, but ascension wasn't around then. That is a lot of tokens for people with ascended Sidewinder. And if you think he is still great, that is good. I definitely don't and he is way worse (for me) than before the nerf. Those TUs go away quickly. And the buff % isn't anywhere near as good.

LavaManLee

I really wish we would get some kind of communication. Why do the double whammy of TU drain and reduced %. One of the other would have sufficed and he would still be playable. Especially ascended. Both, and he is garbage.

entrailbucket

I'm fine with the change. It seemed obvious that he was a screwup, from the beginning, and they did say that.

I'm not at all fine with how they went about it. Why wasn't this change announced in advance? Or, like, announced at all? Why did they wait so long? I said it in another thread -- this guy was so good that you really kind of had to have him, for as long as he existed. So we ended up being forced to go after him without knowing how long he'd be around.

I'm sure this is not an intentional bait and switch, because I really don't believe they're capable of that. He was an accident that they took too long to fix. It sure looks like a bait and switch though! And it feeds all these weird conspiracy theories about their intentions.

Pantera236

This nerf did make me realize something. Even though whales/big fish are relatively small percentage of the player base I think they may be a very high percentage of the wins. Jane SC Polaris (maybe a few others) aren't getting nerfed because the people playing 100+ matches per event (some even farming for 200-300 per event and a few targeting 1k wins) aren't using them. While they do allow people to punch up they are not fast. When you look at who has been nerfed, they were being used by those people too. One person I know who goes for 1k wins fast tracked Sidewinder to 550... he not happy lol.

BriMan2222

This does make me wonder though.. why this change that was a mistake was fixed so quickly, but Peggy Thor who they also said had wrong numbers (too low instead of too high) is still waiting to be fixed.

I guess when it doesn't let players win easier they aren't as worried about it.