Brave new world

2

Comments

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,427 Chairperson of the Boards

    Are we expected to beleive this is some type of magic shield? Boy, I sure hope somebody got fired for this blunder.

  • Kross
    Kross Posts: 127 Tile Toppler

    I just saw it, and I would give it a solid B or B+. It is basically Captain America: The Force Awakens (and if anyone needs clarification on what that means I will provide).

    I will say that the end did not work for me. Felt forced.

    So overall, not as good as DP & Wolvie, but better than any MCU movie I can think of since Endgame.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,949 Chairperson of the Boards

    I didn’t see the movie yet. But had a point about Cap. Steve in the comics is just the optimal human with his serum. He’s in a sense super strong, but it’s not supposed to be that he’s actual stronger than a human can be without powers. He’s just the strongest human there is (basically).

    However, the movies definitely make it seem like Steve has some super strength.

    Anyway I guess Sam in comics is pretty close to Steve because of the way it works there, strength-wise.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,545 Chairperson of the Boards

    The saga of how strong Cap (Steve Rogers) is goes around in circles much like how strong Wolverine is. Wolverine has broken solid steel chains, cut through steel doors, punched Rogue through a solid wall and carried the weight of the Hulk on his shoulders yet he is apparently not superhumanly strong (well he is!).

    A couple of things on Cap - there have been periods where Cap had super strength, notably during the original Secret Empire timeline. However that was "forgotten" after different editors and writers took over the book. Secondly, whilst not an exact copy, MCU Cap is at least partly influenced by the Ultimates version who is definitely super strong. I tend to think of MCU Steve as being a mixture of both versions, with his personality much more aligned with 616 but his power levels being Ultimate.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,844 Chairperson of the Boards

    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 557 Critical Contributor

    @Borstock said:
    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

    So you went to a superhero movie expecting no superheroes? The point wasn't so much he could do it literally with just his fists, it was that he didn't need the supersoldier serum. But serum or not he still trained his **** off, with a literal supersoldier. Just to be clear I'm not defending the movie per se, I thought it was good but definitely not great.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,409 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 18 February 2025, 17:39

    @Pantera236 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

    So you went to a superhero movie expecting no superheroes? The point wasn't so much he could do it literally with just his fists, it was that he didn't need the supersoldier serum.

    But that fact lessens the whole idea of who Cap is. In other words apparently the serum wasn't needed, all Cap (or anyone apparently) had to do was train his **** off, get a Shield and he would have been Cap. That makes the serum a kind of McGuffin which definitely lessens things for me personally on Captain America.

    KGB

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,409 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 18 February 2025, 17:47

    @DAZ0273 said:
    The saga of how strong Cap (Steve Rogers) is goes around in circles much like how strong Wolverine is. Wolverine has broken solid steel chains, cut through steel doors, punched Rogue through a solid wall and carried the weight of the Hulk on his shoulders yet he is apparently not superhumanly strong (well he is!).

    Adamantium claws and bones explains why he can cut through doors and carry Hulk (or any massive amount of weight). But to break chains, punch people through walls or actually walk with Hulk on his shoulders all requires super human strength.

    I preferred Wolverine in the early X-Men movies when he just had the healing factor and the claws/bones and wasn't doing crazy feats of strength (I mean if he can punch someone through a wall if he even love tapped a normal person he'd knock them into next week).

    Problem is in each successive movie all the X-Men started doing more and more crazy things (eg Magnetos metal reach was very localized in 1st movie but by the 3rd he was flying the Golden Gate bridge which is miles long and in later movies tapping into the earths core which means the whole plastic prison thing was impossible and so on).

    KGB

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,545 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @Pantera236 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

    So you went to a superhero movie expecting no superheroes? The point wasn't so much he could do it literally with just his fists, it was that he didn't need the supersoldier serum.

    But that fact lessens the whole idea of who Cap is. In other words apparently the serum wasn't needed, all Cap (or anyone apparently) had to do was train his **** off, get a Shield and he would have been Cap. That makes the serum a kind of McGuffin which definitely lessens things for me personally on Captain America.

    KGB

    The Streets of Poison story stripped Steve of the Super Soldier Serum and he ends up in a battle with Crossbones that he has to win without it. Likewise during the Captain storyline he defeats John Walker who has super human strength. So there are plenty of times we have seen Cap triumph regardless of the serum or against superior foes. No reason Sam can't do the same.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,545 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    The saga of how strong Cap (Steve Rogers) is goes around in circles much like how strong Wolverine is. Wolverine has broken solid steel chains, cut through steel doors, punched Rogue through a solid wall and carried the weight of the Hulk on his shoulders yet he is apparently not superhumanly strong (well he is!).

    Adamantium claws and bones explains why he can cut through doors and carry Hulk (or any massive amount of weight). But to break chains, punch people through walls or actually walk with Hulk on his shoulders all requires super human strength.

    I preferred Wolverine in the early X-Men movies when he just had the healing factor and the claws/bones and wasn't doing crazy feats of strength (I mean if he can punch someone through a wall if he even love tapped a normal person he'd knock them into next week).

    Problem is in each successive movie all the X-Men started doing more and more crazy things (eg Magnetos metal reach was very localized in 1st movie but by the 3rd he was flying the Golden Gate bridge which is miles long and in later movies tapping into the earths core which means the whole plastic prison thing was impossible and so on).

    KGB

    I'm not even convinced adamantium claws is enough to punch through several inches of steel - you still need to be able to generate the amount of physical force to achieve that and to do so with the ease that Wolverine does suggests a feat of strength beyond normal strength levels. Likewise even being able to penetrate Hulk's skin - unless you are strong enough the claws would just bounce off the same way bullets and even explosives do.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,242 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @KGB said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    The saga of how strong Cap (Steve Rogers) is goes around in circles much like how strong Wolverine is. Wolverine has broken solid steel chains, cut through steel doors, punched Rogue through a solid wall and carried the weight of the Hulk on his shoulders yet he is apparently not superhumanly strong (well he is!).

    Adamantium claws and bones explains why he can cut through doors and carry Hulk (or any massive amount of weight). But to break chains, punch people through walls or actually walk with Hulk on his shoulders all requires super human strength.

    I preferred Wolverine in the early X-Men movies when he just had the healing factor and the claws/bones and wasn't doing crazy feats of strength (I mean if he can punch someone through a wall if he even love tapped a normal person he'd knock them into next week).

    Problem is in each successive movie all the X-Men started doing more and more crazy things (eg Magnetos metal reach was very localized in 1st movie but by the 3rd he was flying the Golden Gate bridge which is miles long and in later movies tapping into the earths core which means the whole plastic prison thing was impossible and so on).

    KGB

    I'm not even convinced adamantium claws is enough to punch through several inches of steel - you still need to be able to generate the amount of physical force to achieve that and to do so with the ease that Wolverine does suggests a feat of strength beyond normal strength levels. Likewise even being able to penetrate Hulk's skin - unless you are strong enough the claws would just bounce off the same way bullets and even explosives do.

    Yeah, the relationship between bone strength and overall strength isn't zero, but the strength of your bones is almost never going to be a limiting factor for how strong you are.

    You don't see strongmen picking up beer kegs and shattering their arm or leg bones -- they're far, far more likely to tear connective tissue like tendons or ligaments, or strain or tear muscles.

    It's actually kind of unclear what benefit the adamantium skeleton gives Wolverine. Sure, his bones can't be broken, but who cares -- his healing factor would knit them right back together anyway.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 557 Critical Contributor

    @KGB said:

    @Pantera236 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

    So you went to a superhero movie expecting no superheroes? The point wasn't so much he could do it literally with just his fists, it was that he didn't need the supersoldier serum.

    But that fact lessens the whole idea of who Cap is. In other words apparently the serum wasn't needed, all Cap (or anyone apparently) had to do was train his **** off, get a Shield and he would have been Cap. That makes the serum a kind of McGuffin which definitely lessens things for me personally on Captain America.

    KGB

    I think you guys missed the 1st Cap movie. He was Cap before he got the serum. Sure no one took him seriously but it's his heart that makes him who he is. Only reason Steve even needed the serum was cause he was 102 soaking wet. His character didn't change after the serum, same old Cap.

  • Kross
    Kross Posts: 127 Tile Toppler

    @Borstock said:
    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not."

    Want to hear the funny part?

    This line isn’t in the movie.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,844 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Pantera236 said:

    @Borstock said:
    Let me ask the people who don't seem to care or think it matters...

    When Steve, in civilian clothes, grabbed the helicopter on the roof and held it there with his own strength, that was awesome, right?

    If Sam did the same thing, with no Vibranium suit on, would you still think it was awesome?

    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not." Based on Mackie's delivery, it's implied his meaning is "I'm Sam Wilson. I can do things my way and still get the job done. I don't have to be Steve."

    That's the point of the film. It's the entire point of the (neutered) movie. So, when he does stuff with the shield that makes no sense, yes, it matters.

    So you went to a superhero movie expecting no superheroes? The point wasn't so much he could do it literally with just his fists, it was that he didn't need the supersoldier serum.

    I see. So, what does the super soldier serum actually do in your mind? Because it sounds like "not much".

    As for superheroics, I've already said I loved the aerial combat scene. That was a scene where Sam shined, doing stuff no one else could really do, not at his level. Everything could be explained by Sam doing Sam things with an assist from the Wakandan tech suit. Steve's body is his tech suit.

    You are allowed to make your own rules in movies. But once you make them, breaking them needs to make sense. Sam using the shield like Steve, while in civilian clothes, makes no sense based on their own rules. Now, I don't know why Rhodey wouldn't be able to use it just as effectively, or Yelena.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,844 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Kross said:

    @Borstock said:
    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not."

    Want to hear the funny part?

    This line isn’t in the movie.

    The theme is.

    That's also why I said it was in the trailer and not that it was in the movie.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 557 Critical Contributor

    Are you saying this because you think the shield is heavy? If so it's not. Black Widow picked it up just fine in AoU and Tony hands it to Cap just fine in civies in Endgame. And as far as the throwing of it with that kind of precision I mean it didn't really make sense that Cap could do it either. Doesn't happen because they're strong it's training. Oh and as far as what the supersoldier does in my head, like kgb said (dismissively) it is a MacGuffin. So many in the MCU have tried to recreate it but the one thing they were missing was Steve's heart/passion.

  • Kross
    Kross Posts: 127 Tile Toppler

    @Borstock said:

    @Kross said:

    @Borstock said:
    Sam should be Sam. There's a line from the trailer where Ross tells him he's no Steve Rogers and he replies, "You're right. I'm not."

    Want to hear the funny part?

    This line isn’t in the movie.

    The theme is.

    That's also why I said it was in the trailer and not that it was in the movie.

    Yup it was the entire theme of the movie. Sam proving he didn’t need to be Steve. Even Ross proving he is a changed man.

    Just funny that they cut that line.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,844 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Pantera236 said:
    Are you saying this because you think the shield is heavy? If so it's not. Black Widow picked it up just fine in AoU and Tony hands it to Cap just fine in civies in Endgame. And as far as the throwing of it with that kind of precision I mean it didn't really make sense that Cap could do it either. Doesn't happen because they're strong it's training. Oh and as far as what the supersoldier does in my head, like kgb said (dismissively) it is a MacGuffin. So many in the MCU have tried to recreate it but the one thing they were missing was Steve's heart/passion.

    I'm saying it because one man can hold a helicopter to a building with his bare hands, can jump down from a 5 story building and not break every bone in his body, and punching bags go flying across the gym when he hits them.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,523 Chairperson of the Boards

    Going back to the OP's question, it was a very solid, not great, movie. I appreciate that it was "short" for a super hero movie (coming in at 2 hours) and lighter on the fight scenes and more interested in exploring other themes. Definitely better than many of the other super hero movies and totally enjoyable.

    I take no credit for this, it was the Wall Street Journal, who called it an "excellent airplane movie" and that is not criticism. It is watchable, pace is zippy, the plot "makes sense" and just fun to watch.

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