550 Swaps

SuperCarrot

This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

Scofie

I think that's a really good idea - it keeps the benefits of the current system and doesn't disadvantage those at the 550 point. It could incentive players to target fewer characters but I guess those that are so inclined do so already.

It does mean that people who are currently approaching their first 550 would get a massive advantage in building up their other 550s quickly as with every 550, the roster advancement rate increases. I don't know how many LTs/CP the top players get per season but it will be enough to 550 the lower tier characters quickly (if they've not already) and every pull is for a new character. My guess is it'll take them less than a week of hoarding to champ the new shiny on Day 1. Maybe that changes the game or player motivation but I can imagine if you're playing only a week a month and it is not affecting progression and you get everything you want and need to stay at the top, players might switch off a little bit. That in itself could prevent burnout and keep the game healthier for longer.

There is a good argument to do the same for 370s but I can think of ways to abuse that!

meteor0905

I would said I will not pull for Lastest Legends within 4 months

And LL token seem meh and stop my motivation to play true competitive in PVE.

There is no reason to buy any offer that include CP/LL ,glad it save some bucks lol

Remark : I'm PVE T5 player

KGB

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

trenchdigger

You can't swap a 5, unless you have it at 550. That's how the new cover swap system works

Pantera236

@trenchdigger said:
You can't swap a 5, unless you have it at 550. That's how the new cover swap system works

Also how the old system worked too.

SuperCarrot

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

Borstock

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

Not for you.

KGB

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

Borstock

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

They aren't going to be winning more. They were dominant to begin with. They will remain dominant. That part isn't changing.

SuperCarrot

@KGB

I’m just reporting what is being said over on Reddit. No need to be hostile. I will say voting with your wallet makes plenty of sense to me.

entrailbucket

I feel like some of you guys don't know what a "buy club" is (and honestly why would you?).

The first thing you need to know is that a lot of high end players are obsessed with fairness -- this is why they'll kick you if you don't meet minimums. If you don't score enough for one event, that means the other players get less, and that's not ok. Even if you're in the hospital or something, not meeting minimums means letting your alliance down, and it's unfair to them. They love you and care about you, of course, and you're just like family to them, but if you cost them an extra standard token because your grandma is sick, that is completely unacceptable.

Well, when Demiurge introduced alliance CP for spending real money, this created an issue for the whales. Lots of them were spread across different alliances, and some of their alliancemates didn't spend money at all. So if I spend $100, everybody in the alliance gets 7CP -- which works great, as long as all 20 players spend exactly $100 every week (or month, or whatever).

But what if I want to spend $200 this month? Well, it'd simply be unfair! The rest of my alliance would get 14 CP from me, but they'd each only given me 7! Now I could just refuse to spend anything extra until every single one of them had also spent an extra $100, but in practice this creates tracking difficulties.

Buyclubs are the answer to this conundrum. Instead of spending haphazardly and potentially not getting everything I deserve, we create a fake alliance and invite 20 random players who all want to spend $100 right now. Everybody does their business, we all get exactly as much as we deserve, then we can go back to our home alliances who we love and treat like family (but not enough to give them an extra 7CP that they didn't deserve -- that'd simply be unfair!).

entrailbucket

Oh, so what's a "big buy club?"

There's a big chatroom somewhere (used to be Line, no idea now) full of a whole ton of players who've done buyclubs at some point, and may wish to do them again. When someone is organizing a new club they post in there, 19 other players sign up, then they go off and do their thing.

SuperCarrot

Line is still used.

revskip

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

It doesn't really favor them so much as they took a service that was very much free to them and now is highly expensive. That is why they are upset.

Imagine for a second that leveling a character suddenly cost HP as well as ISO. That would be an unpopular change. Swaps for Latest Legends just did exactly that. Went from being a free service to a very expensive one with less utility than the old system.

No one should worry too much about the free to play crowd. They don't pay the bills. The buy club folks on the other hand spent a lot of money. That revenue stream going dry for over a month now should be concerning to everyone who likes the game.

entrailbucket

@revskip said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

It doesn't really favor them so much as they took a service that was very much free to them and now is highly expensive. That is why they are upset.

Imagine for a second that leveling a character suddenly cost HP as well as ISO. That would be an unpopular change. Swaps for Latest Legends just did exactly that. Went from being a free service to a very expensive one with less utility than the old system.

No one should worry too much about the free to play crowd. They don't pay the bills. The buy club folks on the other hand spent a lot of money. That revenue stream going dry for over a month now should be concerning to everyone who likes the game.

I'm sure the devs are very much aware of any decrease in revenue, as well as this particular group's demands. But we don't know how much money those folks spent, and how that compares to the money the rest of us spend.

If the money they're losing matters to them, they'll revert the change. If it doesn't, they won't. I don't see why any of us need to worry about it.

Borstock

@entrailbucket said:

@revskip said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

It doesn't really favor them so much as they took a service that was very much free to them and now is highly expensive. That is why they are upset.

Imagine for a second that leveling a character suddenly cost HP as well as ISO. That would be an unpopular change. Swaps for Latest Legends just did exactly that. Went from being a free service to a very expensive one with less utility than the old system.

No one should worry too much about the free to play crowd. They don't pay the bills. The buy club folks on the other hand spent a lot of money. That revenue stream going dry for over a month now should be concerning to everyone who likes the game.

I'm sure the devs are very much aware of any decrease in revenue, as well as this particular group's demands. But we don't know how much money those folks spent, and how that compares to the money the rest of us spend.

If the money they're losing matters to them, they'll revert the change. If it doesn't, they won't. I don't see why any of us need to worry about it.

It's almost as if player interests aren't always the same as what's best for the devs.

Daredevil217

@Borstock said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:

@KGB said:

@SuperCarrot said:
This has been hit on in other threads, but what if the swaps after 550 were turned to negligible costs or free? Could that not entice people to work for the 550 and engage with the game longer?

It would put the carrot out there for chasing any character a person wants. The thought process here is the longer people are engaged with the game the higher chance of spending money. Might be a dumb idea, but just a thought.

If swaps after 550 were free (or really low in cost) why would anyone ever pay the larger swap costs? Realistically, very few people are paying to swap non-550 characters covers. I mean sure some players will swap a Wasp for some meta character but most won't.

I think the real problem is what's been revealed by players who were using the old swap feature. Most of us assumed (wrongly) that players were just using it to open a hoard and make sure they got the 3 latest to 550. But what's really happening is that they were vastly over opening LT tokens to get another 100 or 200 5 star covers so they could use the swap feature to 550 a bunch of older 5s they might have missed out on max champing. So your suggestion of lowering costs once you hit 550 just brings back this exact same problem.

KGB

That was my point. I am also aware from reading here and on the sub reddit that some of the big buy clubs have stopped doing their thing. I want to also add there was no problem until the company decided there was a problem. Do not give them any slack.

What you say doesn't make logical sense. The new system FAVORS big bug clubs because those players are probably buying hundreds of thousands of CP so they can easily afford to swap whatever they want. It's the free to play hoarders (or close to free to play) who will struggle the most with this. So big buy clubs should rule even stronger with this new feature in place. So why aren't they happy to be winning more?

KGB

They aren't going to be winning more. They were dominant to begin with. They will remain dominant. That part isn't changing.

This is the smartest post in this thread, even though it’s the most common sense. Those on top will remain on top until they decide they are bored and move on.

All this change did was put a premium tax on the new character boost which was more about having fun playing with new toys until they become obsolete for a year more than any sort of real competitive advantage. I bet this changes nothing with regards to the competitive landscape and just sucks a lot of fun out of the game for those players. I can still 550 the same way I used to (delaying until they leave latests because I think I only had the new character boost once in ten years and did about the same as I always do lol). But I get people feeling like the game is stagnant and wanting new boosted 550s to pair with their other boosted 550s for a few weeks. Ah well.

DAZ0273

Possibly I know nothing about anything (very likely) but my understanding of top level MPQ is that it is all very tightly controlled by the players. For example the only way to reach the very highest scores in PVP is by outside co-ordination and the very highest Alliances have families that enable swapping to advantage. I don't know exactly how it is decided who wins every Season but I don't think it is completely left to chance. When there are Boss battles, players move from alliance to alliance to sort out who wins and manipulate scores. Possibly PVE is an actual competition, I don't know but everything else is carved up between the top end players already who have complete dominance. If ever a new player enters the top levels and starts to compete then it isn't entirely unusual for them to be accused of cheating simply because it shouldn't really be possible for them to be up there.

So I don't see how this could affect competitiveness at all.

Timemachinego

@DAZ0273 said:
Possibly I know nothing about anything (very likely) but my understanding of top level MPQ is that it is all very tightly controlled by the players. For example the only way to reach the very highest scores in PVP is by outside co-ordination and the very highest Alliances have families that enable swapping to advantage. I don't know exactly how it is decided who wins every Season but I don't think it is completely left to chance. When there are Boss battles, players move from alliance to alliance to sort out who wins and manipulate scores. Possibly PVE is an actual competition, I don't know but everything else is carved up between the top end players already who have complete dominance. If ever a new player enters the top levels and starts to compete then it isn't entirely unusual for them to be accused of cheating simply because it shouldn't really be possible for them to be up there.

So I don't see how this could affect competitiveness at all.

You're certainly not wrong about all of this, but a few notes:

Boss swaps were heavily discouraged, what you'll find now are alliances moving in/out those that are willing to engage for top placement before the event begins. It takes pretty serious coordination and not everyone is up to it every time.

Personal PVE placement is still very much that, there's no real gaming it, and I've only seen suspicion in a few cases... usually related to people who also have really wonky rosters.

I'm not as close to the seasonal stones race, but it seems like it's gotten a lot more relaxed now that we're able to level supports. I've not heard of any beefs about "who gets to win this time" for quite a while, though it's possible those are still happening less publicly.

bluewolf

My understanding of the stones chase is that the people who have tended to chase 1st place all have all the stones, at some rank even if not rank 5, and hence there isn’t much competition left among those who have the rosters, time, hp/cash to shield, and desire to chase 1st in a season.

The stones entered the game around May 2018 so we have had 13 cycles of all 6 stones showing up in pvp seasons now. Then there are a number of SCL’s and also the brackets would fill a few times per season.

Idk the number exactly but with 3 SCL’s avail to top people, and let’s say average of 3 flips you’d get 117 people who could get all 6 stones. Plus the ones from community challenges - everyone logging in for the past 16 months consistently has 3 of them.

Also a number of them aren’t that exciting as supports.