Wolverine (Old Man Logan) 5* - Rebalance & New Costume

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@pepitedechocolat said:
I stand with the fact that regen is not an issue, it is not an issue for the players, not an issue for the gameplay nor for game balance, nor for PVP.

It's only a monetization issue, this is not our (the players) problem. And I doubt health packs are a major source of revenue nor a great ressource sink for the game

changes to 2wolvie and OBW were to force the use of HP, no player was happy with the changes.

You're arguing against the health pack system, which is fine -- it's meant to stop us from playing forever unless we pay.
Anybody who wants to play forever without spending money (most of us) will obviously hate it!

As long as that system exists, they're not going to produce characters that circumvent it.

I saw someone else say "health regeneration can never be overpowered," which is definitely false. My classic example is a theoretical 5* Blob -- he has 1 match damage in all colors and can't be stunned. He's got 300,000 HP at 450, and another passive that says "if Blob is at less than 100% health, (true) heal him to 100% every turn." He does literally nothing but heal, and that guy would become the entire metagame immediately.

Unless that Blob also had a jump in front mechanic, he would be no issue at all. Just save him for last and hit with Shang chi for 35 million damage. He would just be useless dead weight.

Even with a jump in front mechanic, mthor and shang would KO him quickly.

He would likely be a problem for low level players, trying to take down a blob with a few covers with 100k hp and only having 3 stars that do a few thousand damage.

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@pepitedechocolat said:
I stand with the fact that regen is not an issue, it is not an issue for the players, not an issue for the gameplay nor for game balance, nor for PVP.

It's only a monetization issue, this is not our (the players) problem. And I doubt health packs are a major source of revenue nor a great ressource sink for the game

changes to 2wolvie and OBW were to force the use of HP, no player was happy with the changes.

You're arguing against the health pack system, which is fine -- it's meant to stop us from playing forever unless we pay.
Anybody who wants to play forever without spending money (most of us) will obviously hate it!

As long as that system exists, they're not going to produce characters that circumvent it.

I saw someone else say "health regeneration can never be overpowered," which is definitely false. My classic example is a theoretical 5* Blob -- he has 1 match damage in all colors and can't be stunned. He's got 300,000 HP at 450, and another passive that says "if Blob is at less than 100% health, (true) heal him to 100% every turn." He does literally nothing but heal, and that guy would become the entire metagame immediately.

Unless that Blob also had a jump in front mechanic, he would be no issue at all. Just save him for last and hit with Shang chi for 35 million damage. He would just be useless dead weight.

Even with a jump in front mechanic, mthor and shang would KO him quickly.

He would likely be a problem for low level players, trying to take down a blob with a few covers with 100k hp and only having 3 stars that do a few thousand damage.

Not everyone has a maxed out version of m'Thor and Shang-Chi (and not everyone wants to use the same characters in every fight)...I feel like your description of "low level players" would include an awful lot of folks.

You're correct that health regeneration is a DPS check, though, and DPS has increased significantly over the years.

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@pepitedechocolat said:
I stand with the fact that regen is not an issue, it is not an issue for the players, not an issue for the gameplay nor for game balance, nor for PVP.

It's only a monetization issue, this is not our (the players) problem. And I doubt health packs are a major source of revenue nor a great ressource sink for the game

changes to 2wolvie and OBW were to force the use of HP, no player was happy with the changes.

You're arguing against the health pack system, which is fine -- it's meant to stop us from playing forever unless we pay.
Anybody who wants to play forever without spending money (most of us) will obviously hate it!

As long as that system exists, they're not going to produce characters that circumvent it.

I saw someone else say "health regeneration can never be overpowered," which is definitely false. My classic example is a theoretical 5* Blob -- he has 1 match damage in all colors and can't be stunned. He's got 300,000 HP at 450, and another passive that says "if Blob is at less than 100% health, (true) heal him to 100% every turn." He does literally nothing but heal, and that guy would become the entire metagame immediately.

Unless that Blob also had a jump in front mechanic, he would be no issue at all. Just save him for last and hit with Shang chi for 35 million damage. He would just be useless dead weight.

Even with a jump in front mechanic, mthor and shang would KO him quickly.

He would likely be a problem for low level players, trying to take down a blob with a few covers with 100k hp and only having 3 stars that do a few thousand damage.

Not everyone has a maxed out version of m'Thor and Shang-Chi (and not everyone wants to use the same characters in every fight)...I feel like your description of "low level players" would include an awful lot of folks.

You're correct that health regeneration is a DPS check, though, and DPS has increased significantly over the years.

You don't need a high lvl version, I used to do a million damage purple shang chi attack with baby champed mthor and baby champed shang. It's only recently that I have gotten them close to 550 (which I assume would be going up against 550 blob with 1 million hp), and I don't use them often, but I certainly would use them as a blob counter if he existed. I recon that partial covered shang could also handle partial covered blob.

WhiteBomber

There is nothing Shang can't do, coincidentally, he is also a better healer than Wolverine and circumvents the heck out of health packs, also also immortal characters.

Tony_Foot

They could triple OmL healing and he wouldn’t cause me anything like the problems and planning a ton of other 4 stars ascended and 5* do. I wish they had made his health regen so good the only option was to nuke him. I think that would have been fitting but honestly I still wouldn’t have used him. He doesn’t hit hard or fast enough for me to care.

entrailbucket

That's all true.

I guess when you've got characters that can consistently turn0 almost any fight, characters that can trivially dish out 3 million damage, characters that can permanently stunlock, characters that go infinite turn 1, etc, health regeneration doesn't matter too much anymore.

ThaRoadWarrior

If that’s the case, ru> @entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@pepitedechocolat said:
I stand with the fact that regen is not an issue, it is not an issue for the players, not an issue for the gameplay nor for game balance, nor for PVP.

It's only a monetization issue, this is not our (the players) problem. And I doubt health packs are a major source of revenue nor a great ressource sink for the game

changes to 2wolvie and OBW were to force the use of HP, no player was happy with the changes.

You're arguing against the health pack system, which is fine -- it's meant to stop us from playing forever unless we pay.
Anybody who wants to play forever without spending money (most of us) will obviously hate it!

As long as that system exists, they're not going to produce characters that circumvent it.

I saw someone else say "health regeneration can never be overpowered," which is definitely false. My classic example is a theoretical 5* Blob -- he has 1 match damage in all colors and can't be stunned. He's got 300,000 HP at 450, and another passive that says "if Blob is at less than 100% health, (true) heal him to 100% every turn." He does literally nothing but heal, and that guy would become the entire metagame immediately.

Unless that Blob also had a jump in front mechanic, he would be no issue at all. Just save him for last and hit with Shang chi for 35 million damage. He would just be useless dead weight.

Even with a jump in front mechanic, mthor and shang would KO him quickly.

He would likely be a problem for low level players, trying to take down a blob with a few covers with 100k hp and only having 3 stars that do a few thousand damage.

Not everyone has a maxed out version of m'Thor and Shang-Chi (and not everyone wants to use the same characters in every fight)...I feel like your description of "low level players" would include an awful lot of folks.

You're correct that health regeneration is a DPS check, though, and DPS has increased significantly over the years.

4* Gamora and Deadliest Woman, maybe Silver Surfer would have to be the counter to that with the currently available choices.

Borstock

I still think they should make a Wolverine that regens to full health every turn. I've been told it doesn't work thematically all that well with OML, though.

LavaManLee

Just hit me: shouldn't Deadpool regenerate health better than, ummmmm, not at all? Any of the Deadpool's? Well, maybe not one of them.

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:
That's all true.

I guess when you've got characters that can consistently turn0 almost any fight, characters that can trivially dish out 3 million damage, characters that can permanently stunlock, characters that go infinite turn 1, etc, health regeneration doesn't matter too much anymore.

Exactly. Especially with how they give them out like candy if you save up your DDQ tokens. I don't think I've paid anything for a healthpack in over two years.

Painmonger

One oft forgotten mechanic is that we have true damage now, too. There are several characters that can counter his healing even if it were double or triple what it is with this rebalance.

The central defining trait of Wolverine in pretty much any incarnation is that you can't just melee him down. Characters that specialize in match damage like Colossus, Chasm, resurrected IHulk, Jessica Jones, sure that makes sense. There is no way someone like Kamala Khan, Star Lord, or Dr Strange just stands face to face with Logan taking turns punching him with their bare fists unless the sum total of their plan was to hit their insurance deductible.

The other piece of the equation I think could be better represented for his various versions is the berserker rage. It should be difficult to get him to 25 or even 50%, but if you do it should make him wildly more dangerous. Make one of his powers double his match damage or create strikes passively at start of turn of his health is below 25%, increased by 5% per cover.

Having said all of that, I do appreciate the work put into the rebalance! It is still a definite improvement, and I don't want it to come across as disappointment in the devs efforts.

Bzhai

@LavaManLee said:
Just hit me: shouldn't Deadpool regenerate health better than, ummmmm, not at all? Any of the Deadpool's? Well, maybe not one of them.

This and Sabretooth bothers me as well. As least Deadpool has his support to heal him.

ThaRoadWarrior

3* Deadpool has a lame heal on his jump in front CD; seems like the higher end versions should be more durable

entrailbucket

Making characters totally true to the lore is really complicated because, like, how do you do Silver Surfer or Galactus ever? There are so many characters in the lore that are immortal or totally immune to anything, but also... Marvel is kind of awful at staying consistent on power levels anyway. There are tons of examples throughout the years.

Daredevil217

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
3* Deadpool has a lame heal on his jump in front CD; seems like the higher end versions should be more durable

4* has a heal on his red. The others (Dev/Ghost/Hot) are all alternate reality versions that may or may not heal. One of them I have it on good authority… does not.

Borstock

@Daredevil217 said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
3* Deadpool has a lame heal on his jump in front CD; seems like the higher end versions should be more durable

4* has a heal on his red. The others (Dev/Ghost/Hot) are all alternate reality versions that may or may not heal. One of them I have it on good authority… does not.

How was I supposed to know he doesn't regenerate? I'm not a medicine woman.

WhiteBomber

I have played well over 50 matches with him now in varying modes with varying types of teams (SAP spammers and buffers, AP generators, tanks, board shakers) and I gotta say, I was still wholly unimpressed, maybe even more sad now.

IN MY EXPERIENCE:

• He's painfully slow. If you aren't using HalfThor or some excellent AP gen you weren't going to get much value out of him in any short time.
• Because of the slowness, if you aren't using another SAP generator, I actually ended up throwing the black for the strikes far more often than I expected. This however ended up being sad and slow as the damage from these tiles rarely helped anything and they weren't fortified so they got crushed very quickly (AND you need 4 to survive plus another 7 black to see the real value).
• The damage on the yellow and red are nice, but if you were chasing those colors, you would throw those abilities once and everyone was likely still alive. You now just wasted X amount of turns setting you up for no other strategies than those non killing attacks you just threw. Slowing things down even more.
• The heal was still pointless. If I was going to lose, this maybe just slowed it down by 1 to 2 turns max and if I was going to win, I was generally healthy enough it made no difference, especially if he can't tank everything.
• He want's to play slow if he is to do anything, because of this he seemed to do best with tanks who gave me enough time for him to spin up (Professor5, Colossus, surely Mbaku5 etc.). You can of course take any Polaris team for value if you have him tanking, but she has so many amazing (and more fun) options. HalfThor naturally works well with anyone who uses those colors, but he especially wants black and then doesn't contribute to further board shake or manipulation himself making other options far better for Thor.
• My 370 4star XFWolverine performed better than 454 OML in the vast majority of the fights and he only gets better once ascended. It feels like OML wants to do too many things, he wants to heal but its too weak. He wants to create and use strikes but his are eh, unprotected and cost too much AP. Then he wants to destroy them, so buffing those tiles is sadness. He want's to shuffle the board, but only at the cost of those strikes and only shakes 4. He wants to hit hard, but doing so doesn't set you up for any continued momentum after you get there. X-Force knows what we wants and goes all in (board shake AND big damage along with it), hell, his heal even provides more value since you can turn it in to more damage and board shake if you don't need the health.
• He's clearly not useless or anywhere near the worst since you can dish out big booms or tiles spam if you make it there, it's just unfortunate that he needs very specific team mates for him to provide any real value in a game where so many others are doing it better, faster and arguably more fun.

All opinions based off of my current experience, but hoping someone amazing for him is hiding or yet to be released (likely a black AP and strike generator w/ weak match damage and maybe buffs heals ). Overall it just left me not really having fun playing him, I personally think Wolverine deserves better based off of his popularity and lore strength, but I know those have nothing to do with strength in this game.

WhiteBomber

If you're still here and reeeally trying to have fun with him, consider probably the best I found for him: OML, Vulture5, Dealthlok.

• I am all for anyone who adds value to Vulture and those 2 play well together. Prioritize pink to get the Vulture in the air so OML can tank (he tanks all but blue and red even when pared with ascended Deathlok). Vulture plus Lok drastically speed up OMLs nukes and Lok also adds a little bit of protection. You could swap out Lok, but the additional speed and defense at least makes it a higher tier team.

If you really want to play in to the defense: OML, Prof5, Ice5

• Put Prof black at 5 for the defense and ap cost of enemy team because all Xmen. Iceman is one of the few who want you to destroy his tiles, OML black will target these for cheap instead of needing strikes, causing team damage or stun.\
  You can of course also sub Prof for Kang to make things faster with Kangs endless blue strat when destroying Icemans countdowns with OMLs black (which is better than Kangs).

Honorable mention for Magic3 who does well with him (give someone the Ultron AI support or pizza dog here for added fun since the strikes pop off more with this team). Use Magics red over OML, because really, his red isn't that good and Magics red drastically fuels OMLs black (which you want).

entrailbucket

I really wouldn't bother with OML (or really, any 5* besides the 3 good ones) unless boosted.

He should be boosted again soon and I expect he'll play quite well for that week.

Borstock

Be fair. There are at least 4 good ones.