No advance notice of feeders

System
System Posts: 1,032 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: New Character - Lady Octopus (Carolyn Trainer) 4*.
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  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @fitfestus said:
    Please put the feeders in prior to release.
    I hoard shards so I can use them when I know the feeders for upcoming characters.

    I can get double rewards if I can progress past the feeder rewards.

    Obviously, that information is NOT helpful after the release.

    I think this is the reason they are not dropping the info early. When they make a mistake and people go all in on the wrong character, it gets violent around here. Also, I have to imagine they don't want to promote double rewards.

    This is definitely why. Sombunall folks lose their minds any time changes need to be made so it really isn't at all in their best interest to expose their CS to vitriol.

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 304 Mover and Shaker

    @revskip said:

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @fitfestus said:
    Please put the feeders in prior to release.
    I hoard shards so I can use them when I know the feeders for upcoming characters.

    I can get double rewards if I can progress past the feeder rewards.

    Obviously, that information is NOT helpful after the release.

    I think this is the reason they are not dropping the info early. When they make a mistake and people go all in on the wrong character, it gets violent around here. Also, I have to imagine they don't want to promote double rewards.

    This is definitely why. Sombunall folks lose their minds any time changes need to be made so it really isn't at all in their best interest to expose their CS to vitriol.

    Do you have examples of the vitriol? Or just basing it on the devs response or experience from other games. I did not think the comments from the 5* kaine forum thread were that mean spirited. But, then I don't know what was sent through the ticket system.

    So the lesson here from my perspective and what I want is to police the complainers so that the dev response will be tame-ish.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    @revskip said:
    I mean go back and look at the 1st page of that Kaine thread.

    "Wasted ISO and milestone shards due to this debacle. This is really unacceptable and seems intentional, especially as it is the 2nd time they have misled on retros in a short period of time (Dr Doom being the other one recently). Very anti-user and disrespectful to your player base."

    "I was bamboozled. My alliance reported retro rewards had been handed out and saw I got nothing despite my India being 320. Then i come here to find out we was lied to."

    Reddit was not much better with the thread discussing it getting locked due to people getting too spicy.

    Line was even worse in some rooms. While I can't see what CS was getting I don't think it's a stretch to think that was even worse since folks tend to act their worst with customer service folk.

    It really is a lose/lose for the devs. If they give out info ahead of time and anything changes people pitch a fit. If they don't give out info people are upset about the lack of communication. I'm not sure what the answer is but I think in this case not announcing ahead of time is the right move. I am one of the people who enjoys knowing ahead of time so I can double dip when things like this are announced but I get why they can't without getting dragged.

    So you don't think people had the right to be upset by getting the wrong information?
    I wasn't, but I understand people spending resources and then being unhappy with the result when the information was not correct.
    People should be able to vent their frustration openly and clearly to the devs so the developers learn from their mistakes.
    Not everyone is going to be nice about it. But there's no reason to hold water for the devs here, I am sure they are all adults.

    We know their release schedule is more or less set in stone months ahead of time, so you should expect more from them not less.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @dianetics said:

    @revskip said:
    I mean go back and look at the 1st page of that Kaine thread.

    "Wasted ISO and milestone shards due to this debacle. This is really unacceptable and seems intentional, especially as it is the 2nd time they have misled on retros in a short period of time (Dr Doom being the other one recently). Very anti-user and disrespectful to your player base."

    "I was bamboozled. My alliance reported retro rewards had been handed out and saw I got nothing despite my India being 320. Then i come here to find out we was lied to."

    Reddit was not much better with the thread discussing it getting locked due to people getting too spicy.

    Line was even worse in some rooms. While I can't see what CS was getting I don't think it's a stretch to think that was even worse since folks tend to act their worst with customer service folk.

    It really is a lose/lose for the devs. If they give out info ahead of time and anything changes people pitch a fit. If they don't give out info people are upset about the lack of communication. I'm not sure what the answer is but I think in this case not announcing ahead of time is the right move. I am one of the people who enjoys knowing ahead of time so I can double dip when things like this are announced but I get why they can't without getting dragged.

    So you don't think people had the right to be upset by getting the wrong information?
    I wasn't, but I understand people spending resources and then being unhappy with the result when the information was not correct.
    People should be able to vent their frustration openly and clearly to the devs so the developers learn from their mistakes.
    Not everyone is going to be nice about it. But there's no reason to hold water for the devs here, I am sure they are all adults.

    We know their release schedule is more or less set in stone months ahead of time, so you should expect more from them not less.

    I 100% EXPECT people to be upset by getting the wrong information. Which is why I think the best solution to heading that problem off is to not give the wrong information by not giving any prior information. Without that information no one will make decisions that feel gross if they need to be changed later. And no one will have occasion to be angry at the devs for those types of miscues.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    We should be expecting more from them, not less.

    If they screw up and acknowledge it fine, I don't even think compensation is warranted. But, we should hold them to the standards set before and not let them slide into less information.

    If it is the case where we just /shrug and accept it, then they should just direct us to the website where there is no open forum and nobody could complain directly.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 836 Critical Contributor
    edited 12 July 2024, 09:58

    Man it really does seem that bcs should appoint a forum manager to be able to find out all of these important issues.
    Does anyone know any legends that could do this?

  • will7612
    will7612 Posts: 99 Match Maker

    @ThisisClemFandango said:
    Man it really does seem that bcs should appoint a forum manager to be able to find out all of these important issues.
    Does anyone know any legends that could do this?

    I would propose @ThisisClemFandango

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 836 Critical Contributor

    Oh thank you but I'm sure there are others who may be just under or the same awesomeness

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,367 Chairperson of the Boards

    Mod mode off
    Personal opinion and all other caveats...
    I look at this as a simple equation:
    From a company perspective: giving out the info gets backlash if it changes last minute and encourages double-dipping, which is not a designed feature - it's an automated compensation method for large rosters.

    From a player perspective, knowing early allows you to double-dip rewards. It has little other value than knowing on the day of release.

    So, if you take the view that double-dipping is a bad or at least an unintended thing for the game, then the only sensible thing to do is not release that information before release.

  • Zarqa
    Zarqa Posts: 336 Mover and Shaker

    @Scofie said:
    Mod mode off
    Personal opinion and all other caveats...
    I look at this as a simple equation:
    From a company perspective: giving out the info gets backlash if it changes last minute and encourages double-dipping, which is not a designed feature - it's an automated compensation method for large rosters.

    From a player perspective, knowing early allows you to double-dip rewards. It has little other value than knowing on the day of release.

    So, if you take the view that double-dipping is a bad or at least an unintended thing for the game, then the only sensible thing to do is not release that information before release.

    Sure. But the outcome will also be that the data miners can get even more advantage than the other players. Because at least for that last mix up, the data-mined info was showing the correct feeder all along (as I understand it). Some people will still be able to double dip regardless. Knowing which character will be released is one thing, but using it to determine feeders (when that is no longer publicly announced) is another.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Zarqa said:

    @Scofie said:
    Mod mode off
    Personal opinion and all other caveats...
    I look at this as a simple equation:
    From a company perspective: giving out the info gets backlash if it changes last minute and encourages double-dipping, which is not a designed feature - it's an automated compensation method for large rosters.

    From a player perspective, knowing early allows you to double-dip rewards. It has little other value than knowing on the day of release.

    So, if you take the view that double-dipping is a bad or at least an unintended thing for the game, then the only sensible thing to do is not release that information before release.

    Sure. But the outcome will also be that the data miners can get even more advantage than the other players. Because at least for that last mix up, the data-mined info was showing the correct feeder all along (as I understand it). Some people will still be able to double dip regardless. Knowing which character will be released is one thing, but using it to determine feeders (when that is no longer publicly announced) is another.

    The obvious and diabolically hysterical solution to that would be to feed misinformation to the data miners...

    Do it a couple of times and lean into it. Watch folks taking advantage get burned, get super angry and have no one to rage to since they aren't supposed to be privy to that info anyway.

    Win/win for the devs outside of the work it would take to do the fakery.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 526 Critical Contributor
    edited 13 July 2024, 12:46

    @revskip said:

    @Zarqa said:

    @Scofie said:
    Mod mode off
    Personal opinion and all other caveats...
    I look at this as a simple equation:
    From a company perspective: giving out the info gets backlash if it changes last minute and encourages double-dipping, which is not a designed feature - it's an automated compensation method for large rosters.

    From a player perspective, knowing early allows you to double-dip rewards. It has little other value than knowing on the day of release.

    So, if you take the view that double-dipping is a bad or at least an unintended thing for the game, then the only sensible thing to do is not release that information before release.

    Sure. But the outcome will also be that the data miners can get even more advantage than the other players. Because at least for that last mix up, the data-mined info was showing the correct feeder all along (as I understand it). Some people will still be able to double dip regardless. Knowing which character will be released is one thing, but using it to determine feeders (when that is no longer publicly announced) is another.

    The obvious and diabolically hysterical solution to that would be to feed misinformation to the data miners...

    Do it a couple of times and lean into it. Watch folks taking advantage get burned, get super angry and have no one to rage to since they aren't supposed to be privy to that info anyway.

    Win/win for the devs outside of the work it would take to do the fakery.

    Until they screw up and forget to take out the fake in the version that pushed for the go live.

    Why would that happen? Because the universe, and because it can. Ask Murphy.

  • Omegased
    Omegased Posts: 596 Critical Contributor

    In my opinion, the only people who are angry about "misinformation", are the people who are trying to double dip in rewards.

    Not realising the info so it's harder for people to actively play to double dip, is a good thing.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards

    As far as the official announcement not including info, in the history of the insta-feeding that I'm aware of you would at most get a few days (the very earliest we have seen a character announcement is a Monday for a very late Wednesday feeder update). This means to really take advantage of the double dip you would basically need to have a decent hoard you broke to speedily add levels to the feeder.

    You can get mad at players who use datamined info to gain advantage, of course, but the datamining on feeders runs maybe a week and a half ahead of the announcement/implementation. So the advantage over people using released information is not that great, if they even do anything with it.

    The devs are running this game with finalized details very close to ship time, all the time, so faking out the dataminers is something that might amuse them but I suspect they have little capacity for with the current product throughput (characters, costumes, vaults and bundles all being very high volume vs earlier in the game's life).

    I don't think many players, if any, who have access to datamining are shifting to chase double dipping a few covers or LTs over whatever priorities they have for their roster. Also, all information is not final until it's final in the game. Characters become better or worse (sometimes from announcement to being in game), etc and the best thing to do, always, is make decisions on characters that may or will matter to your game performance only after the character is live and can be seen in their final version.

    The difference we are seeing here by losing a few days of early information is basically only impacting people who would hoard tokens and open early before the actual update to double dip. The devs have the right to minimize that.

    I find the card-holding a bit annoying, but at the end it's just a game, and the real decision is after release when you decide who to prioritize based on the actual live characters.

    I should note that you can still hoard (or not) and try to take advantage of double-dipping by ascending characters earlier than planned but within the 7 day window, if you choose, and collect the covers twice that way.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,367 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Zarqa said:

    @Scofie said:
    Mod mode off
    Personal opinion and all other caveats...
    I look at this as a simple equation:
    From a company perspective: giving out the info gets backlash if it changes last minute and encourages double-dipping, which is not a designed feature - it's an automated compensation method for large rosters.

    From a player perspective, knowing early allows you to double-dip rewards. It has little other value than knowing on the day of release.

    So, if you take the view that double-dipping is a bad or at least an unintended thing for the game, then the only sensible thing to do is not release that information before release.

    Sure. But the outcome will also be that the data miners can get even more advantage than the other players. Because at least for that last mix up, the data-mined info was showing the correct feeder all along (as I understand it). Some people will still be able to double dip regardless. Knowing which character will be released is one thing, but using it to determine feeders (when that is no longer publicly announced) is another.

    Mod mode off
    I agree with you on the data miners having an advantage, and that isn't great. But if I can make an exaggerated and unrealistic comparison, it's like legalizing robbery because it's virtually impossible to convict sometimes and it's only fair to give everyone else the chance to rob banks. Because why should the criminals get the free stuff?

  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    edited 13 July 2024, 14:04

    @bluewolf said:
    The difference we are seeing here by losing a few days of early information is basically only impacting people who would hoard tokens and open early before the actual update to double dip. The devs have the right to minimize that.

    Actually, there's one other group of people that benefits from the info without any hoarding:

    People in iso shortage who could champ the feeder (if they know beforehand) to double-dip the LT if they knew. Which impacts nothing, because an extra LT or two doesn't move the needle, but it feels nice to get to do this when you literally have the feeder champable (you just wouldn't normally prioritise them when you could also champ 234567 others).

    So, personally, I'm mourning that we're losing that info. Because missing out on the LT I could have gotten if I only knew to pour iso into this one a day ahead, feels bad.

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