Dear dev, IRON out ascension please.

SourCream
SourCream Posts: 104 Tile Toppler
in MPQ General Discussion

Iron Patriot @ 4 stars

Iron Patriot @ 5 stars

Iron May @ 4 stars

Iron May @ 5 stars

  475 Anti-Venom = 12 retro Scarlet Spider covers
  370 + 286 Anti-Venom = 13 retro Scarlet Spider covers
  370 + 370 Anti-Venom = 24 retro Scarlet Spider covers
«1

Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think this IS "ironed out," from their perspective. These things aren't unintentional bugs -- this is all by design.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,235 Chairperson of the Boards

    Wow his AP cost goes back to 12. I guess it's the power budget thing again.

    Now I wonder if you give his Purple as a TU, are you giving the cost of the current character (ie ascended 4 would be 9, ascended 5 would be 12) or is it based on something else?

    KGB

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor

    Not the only characters that can seem odd post-ascension.

    It'd be great if there were a dynamic reference in-game so players could preview various levels, various rarities, and thereby make informed decisions, avoid disappointments.

    The part about the covers is edge-case / side effect of their remedy for players that complained about being "punished" for max+min ascending characters. They decided to change a character's champ rewards for 1 week after a feeder change goes live. The result being that, if you're sitting on two 370s, you get 6 covers for each, and then if you combine / ascend them, you get those revised champ rewards, too. If you have a 370 and another copy with some champ levels and ascend during that week you get a partial double dip.

    Only possible for a week, and only after a feeder change. "Over-rewarding" some players better than "under-rewarding" some players. I guess.

  • Jinx
    Jinx Posts: 295 Mover and Shaker

    I guess he’ll be like Iron May. Max out as a 4* and leve him that way forever.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor

    @Jinx said:
    I guess he’ll be like Iron May. Max out as a 4* and leve him that way forever.

    Nah, in his case the health and dmg increase wil be worth it ... and there's those crazy pink supports, too :D

  • trewiltrewil
    trewiltrewil Posts: 71 Match Maker

    A player should never even have to think about "should I rank this up or not". Ranking up should always feel like it is a plus to your character. I get power budgets and trying to not make 5s feel inferior, but if that is the case you should balance down from the 5.

    In both of these cases if we got the 5* power as the 3* they wouldn't feel off... They still would be pretty competitive at their levels... 12ap for 5 crits is still an interesting exchange, 70% damage boost us still useful at 3*....

    It's only because we got the better version of the power at lower levels that we are even having this convo. With the older characters that were released prior to ranking up then you are in a box but these characters were released after, they should be balanced accordingly.

    It's poor design, and it doesn't make me feel good as a player. It takes a ton of time and resources to upgrade a net new character to 5*, and it shouldn't feel like I don't want to do it. It's not a fun minmax process.

    I would have spent $50 to buy the two 4* IPs (even at the 12ap cost) but I didn't simply because of this.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @trewiltrewil said:
    It's not that they get worse, maybe that isn't the right phrasing. It's just that they no longer do the thing that is core to why you use them at lower levels. They change personality in a way that makes it feel worse. The don't evolve in an interesting way keeping their core personality.

    If IPs Red or Yellow gained an extra perk that then allowed it to feed the purple, but the purple cost more, ok that is an interesting gameplay cycle that retains the core of the character... That is an evolution, you change the way a character plays in a new interesting wat

    When a power gets more expensive and you are trading that for health and match damage it isn't an interesting change, it actually slows the character down effectively without giving incentive to try a different play style. It just destroys the loop you got used to in 3* and 4* without giving you a clear reason why.

    Ascended should open up new playstyle paths or reinforce the current loop, not remove the loop.

    I think that is what I am trying to say.

    I do understand what you're saying, and I know why, but I still disagree.

    Ghost Rider gets cited as an example -- he loses quite a bit of percentage on Penance Stare. But that power budget got reallocated into his red and green, which are both really good! If you view the character as Penance Stare on a stick, then yeah he got worse. If you look at him in total, he's a lot better. He's also significantly more likely to survive a fight long enough to actually cast Penance Stare!

    Iron Patriot is probably the same way. I bet his other powers get significantly stronger (curiously, they haven't been posted), and he'll actually have a chance to cast his purple before he dies.

    I do think it's weird that they've suddenly started caring about balance, when there are obviously ridiculously overpowered characters running around, but I can see that strategy too. Since the veterans hate all nerfs for any reason, the devs only get one chance with a character. If they can never make a character worse, then they have to start them off low. If the community was more accepting of nerfs...

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

    Her other powers are irrelevant to you. Has anybody even posted what her red or blue do at 5*? How do you know that they're not useful at 450!? What if you don't have Omega Red or the other guys that make her boost so useful?

    When I talk about "minmaxing" I'm not talking about the ascension strategy. I'm talking about a roster strategy that maximizes "useful" characters (by whatever your definition of that is) and ignores everybody else.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 10 July 2024, 19:23

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

    Her other powers are irrelevant to you. Has anybody even posted what her red or blue do at 5*? How do you know that they're not useful at 450!? What if you don't have Omega Red or the other guys that make her boost so useful?

    When I talk about "minmaxing" I'm not talking about the ascension strategy. I'm talking about a roster strategy that maximizes "useful" characters (by whatever your definition of that is) and ignores everybody else.

    It's hilarious how you keep insisting I am only talking for myself :D ... I spend way too much time reading the comments of other MPQers.

    Again, I agree with your position, but am suggesting that 3May is not the outlier to hang the argument on. Ghost Rider is a much better example of a 4 to ascend, not to get hung up on one power that gets toned down.

    As for 3May red and blue ... they are so useless as a 3* and the same as a 4*, maybe they change as a 5*, but 1) it would have to be quite a change, 2) those that discovered the reduction in her passive boosting didn't comment about any amazing changes to her other powers, and 3) because of point 1, got no reason to go looking until proven otherewise :D

    Eh, substitute the word "you" for "you all" then, same thing. We talk to players like us. Everybody here is running the same general strategy.

    Let's take Ghost Rider as that example. Before I started posting his ascended stats, I didn't see one comment anywhere about how he was a good 5* in spite of the change to his black. (I still don't!) Every single comment I saw, everywhere I looked, was about how he was "nerfed," "useless," "garbage," etc -- and I guarantee that 99% of these players hadn't ascended him or bothered to look up his ascended stats, and hadn't ever faced him at 5*. All they saw was a screenshot of the power description at 5*.

    What are the chances that the same thing is happening with every other character?

    I get it, too -- to us, Ghost Rider was Penance Stare on a stick. I'd never used him for anything else. I didn't even know what his powers did! I had to look at him, read his powers closely, then actually use him several times in an actual game (shock! horror!) to see that he did other worthwhile stuff.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor
    edited 10 July 2024, 22:25

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

    Her other powers are irrelevant to you. Has anybody even posted what her red or blue do at 5*? How do you know that they're not useful at 450!? What if you don't have Omega Red or the other guys that make her boost so useful?

    When I talk about "minmaxing" I'm not talking about the ascension strategy. I'm talking about a roster strategy that maximizes "useful" characters (by whatever your definition of that is) and ignores everybody else.

    It's hilarious how you keep insisting I am only talking for myself :D ... I spend way too much time reading the comments of other MPQers.

    Again, I agree with your position, but am suggesting that 3May is not the outlier to hang the argument on. Ghost Rider is a much better example of a 4 to ascend, not to get hung up on one power that gets toned down.

    As for 3May red and blue ... they are so useless as a 3* and the same as a 4*, maybe they change as a 5*, but 1) it would have to be quite a change, 2) those that discovered the reduction in her passive boosting didn't comment about any amazing changes to her other powers, and 3) because of point 1, got no reason to go looking until proven otherewise :D

    Eh, substitute the word "you" for "you all" then, same thing. We talk to players like us. Everybody here is running the same general strategy.

    Let's take Ghost Rider as that example. Before I started posting his ascended stats, I didn't see one comment anywhere about how he was a good 5* in spite of the change to his black. (I still don't!) Every single comment I saw, everywhere I looked, was about how he was "nerfed," "useless," "garbage," etc -- and I guarantee that 99% of these players hadn't ascended him or bothered to look up his ascended stats, and hadn't ever faced him at 5*. All they saw was a screenshot of the power description at 5*.

    What are the chances that the same thing is happening with every other character?

    I get it, too -- to us, Ghost Rider was Penance Stare on a stick. I'd never used him for anything else. I didn't even know what his powers did! I had to look at him, read his powers closely, then actually use him several times in an actual game (shock! horror!) to see that he did other worthwhile stuff.

    The uncritical propagation of received wisdom is endemic to the MPQ online scene, yes. People will repeat the first thing they hear, sans examination, over and over and over ....

    Wellllll ... I used GR's other powers quite a bit, tho it has been a long time since I used him at all! They were far from useless ... not dominating, but productive!

    Yes, the scuttlebutt re: Ghost Rider is overblown. The %age on his black goes down. OKaayyyyyyy ... so what? How the hell often have you been using GR? When is he going to be essential or boosted next? 2028? :D

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

    Her other powers are irrelevant to you. Has anybody even posted what her red or blue do at 5*? How do you know that they're not useful at 450!? What if you don't have Omega Red or the other guys that make her boost so useful?

    When I talk about "minmaxing" I'm not talking about the ascension strategy. I'm talking about a roster strategy that maximizes "useful" characters (by whatever your definition of that is) and ignores everybody else.

    It's hilarious how you keep insisting I am only talking for myself :D ... I spend way too much time reading the comments of other MPQers.

    Again, I agree with your position, but am suggesting that 3May is not the outlier to hang the argument on. Ghost Rider is a much better example of a 4 to ascend, not to get hung up on one power that gets toned down.

    As for 3May red and blue ... they are so useless as a 3* and the same as a 4*, maybe they change as a 5*, but 1) it would have to be quite a change, 2) those that discovered the reduction in her passive boosting didn't comment about any amazing changes to her other powers, and 3) because of point 1, got no reason to go looking until proven otherewise :D

    Eh, substitute the word "you" for "you all" then, same thing. We talk to players like us. Everybody here is running the same general strategy.

    Let's take Ghost Rider as that example. Before I started posting his ascended stats, I didn't see one comment anywhere about how he was a good 5* in spite of the change to his black. (I still don't!) Every single comment I saw, everywhere I looked, was about how he was "nerfed," "useless," "garbage," etc -- and I guarantee that 99% of these players hadn't ascended him or bothered to look up his ascended stats, and hadn't ever faced him at 5*. All they saw was a screenshot of the power description at 5*.

    What are the chances that the same thing is happening with every other character?

    I get it, too -- to us, Ghost Rider was Penance Stare on a stick. I'd never used him for anything else. I didn't even know what his powers did! I had to look at him, read his powers closely, then actually use him several times in an actual game (shock! horror!) to see that he did other worthwhile stuff.

    The uncritical propagation of received wisdom is endemic to the MPQ online scene, yes. People will repeat the first thing they hear, sans examination, over and over and over ....

    Wellllll ... I used GR's other powers quite a bit, tho it has been a long time since I used him at all! They were far from useless ... not dominating, but productive!

    Yes, the scuttlebutt re: Ghost Rider is overblown. The %age on his black goes down. OKaayyyyyyy ... so what? How the hell often have you been using GR? When is he going to be essential or boosted next? 2028? :D

    Hopefully I'll get Iron May to 5* soon, and give her a shot. Based on everything I've seen so far with ascension, I'm willing to bet that she's pretty good, even if her passive gets worse.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 519 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @JoeHandle said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I agree that there should be a way, IN GAME, to look at a character's stats etc after ascension. I fear that what they'll end up doing is posting ascended stats here, or on reddit or discord or whatever, and just further advantage players who are plugged into outside of game information sources.

    I disagree that any of these characters get worse as you ascend them. Many of them are different, but they're all better on balance. There is no character that I'd purposely not ascend.

    I agree with bucket, in that the apparent reason some numbers may go down on powers as they go from 4* to 5* is the increased durability of a 5* ... the 4* version is OK in 4* play, a glass cannon in 5* play. But having the 4* numbers married to 5* durability would be too much.

    That said ... glass cannons do work. And I wouldn't want to lose the stronger 4* effect for use when needed. So will I be in a hurry to ascend certain 4s to 5s? No, not unless I'm playing this long enough to take a 2nd copy to 5* land ... gods forbid.

    Yep -- if you're a player with, let's say, a maxed out m'Thor and Shang-Chi at 550, and you run them in every single event and only look at other characters as they relate to that team, then Iron May at 5* is a downgrade. You're only interested in how well she works with the characters you like and use -- you don't want her to do anything on her own, and her other powers are totally irrelevant.

    But these players are a small group, overall! And I don't think their attitudes represent what the developers are targeting. Ascension is hard and takes a lot of covers. If a player with no usable 5* targeted Iron May as their ascension target, would they want her boost to be her strongest power? Or would they want her to do some boosting and also do good damage on her own?

    It's fine to say that ascending some characters makes them worse for your playstyle -- particularly if you're a minmaxer type. But you can't assume that everyone has the same playstyle and cares about the same things!

    I don't think 3May is your best example .... because her other powers ARE irrelevant :D ... and all comments I have seen, from all levels of players, is horror at the thought of giving up the mega-boost option for all their chars.

    Haven't seen anyone run 3May with ShangThor ... would have to be in Sim ... probably someone in there somehwere.

    I don't max+min 4s, or anyone based on performance. But do I want to retain the +200% boost option for certain boost weeks in PvP? Yes. Yes, I do!

    Would I like a 3May as a 5* to swap out for better defense? Probably. But ... seeing how my 3s are creeping through the 4* tier ... that's not happening anytime soon.

    Her other powers are irrelevant to you. Has anybody even posted what her red or blue do at 5*? How do you know that they're not useful at 450!? What if you don't have Omega Red or the other guys that make her boost so useful?

    When I talk about "minmaxing" I'm not talking about the ascension strategy. I'm talking about a roster strategy that maximizes "useful" characters (by whatever your definition of that is) and ignores everybody else.

    It's hilarious how you keep insisting I am only talking for myself :D ... I spend way too much time reading the comments of other MPQers.

    Again, I agree with your position, but am suggesting that 3May is not the outlier to hang the argument on. Ghost Rider is a much better example of a 4 to ascend, not to get hung up on one power that gets toned down.

    As for 3May red and blue ... they are so useless as a 3* and the same as a 4*, maybe they change as a 5*, but 1) it would have to be quite a change, 2) those that discovered the reduction in her passive boosting didn't comment about any amazing changes to her other powers, and 3) because of point 1, got no reason to go looking until proven otherewise :D

    Eh, substitute the word "you" for "you all" then, same thing. We talk to players like us. Everybody here is running the same general strategy.

    Let's take Ghost Rider as that example. Before I started posting his ascended stats, I didn't see one comment anywhere about how he was a good 5* in spite of the change to his black. (I still don't!) Every single comment I saw, everywhere I looked, was about how he was "nerfed," "useless," "garbage," etc -- and I guarantee that 99% of these players hadn't ascended him or bothered to look up his ascended stats, and hadn't ever faced him at 5*. All they saw was a screenshot of the power description at 5*.

    What are the chances that the same thing is happening with every other character?

    I get it, too -- to us, Ghost Rider was Penance Stare on a stick. I'd never used him for anything else. I didn't even know what his powers did! I had to look at him, read his powers closely, then actually use him several times in an actual game (shock! horror!) to see that he did other worthwhile stuff.

    The uncritical propagation of received wisdom is endemic to the MPQ online scene, yes. People will repeat the first thing they hear, sans examination, over and over and over ....

    Wellllll ... I used GR's other powers quite a bit, tho it has been a long time since I used him at all! They were far from useless ... not dominating, but productive!

    Yes, the scuttlebutt re: Ghost Rider is overblown. The %age on his black goes down. OKaayyyyyyy ... so what? How the hell often have you been using GR? When is he going to be essential or boosted next? 2028? :D

    Hopefully I'll get Iron May to 5* soon, and give her a shot. Based on everything I've seen so far with ascension, I'm willing to bet that she's pretty good, even if her passive gets worse.

    Here's hoping for a pleasant surprise!

  • trewiltrewil
    trewiltrewil Posts: 71 Match Maker
    edited 11 July 2024, 04:19

    See that's just it, I get the change to GR.

    You can lower the % on GR because it is based on damage dealt, and at some point a lower % of a bigger health pool still downs every character in the game (ok maybe not a 5IM40, lol)... GR was designed to punch up, so it would make sense that he doesn't need the higher % at 5* as there is no 6* to punch up too. Shifting more budget to health actually makes him slightly better when he is closer to max hp (as a %).

    It might be as easy as getting a dev to come in and explain the why on these two characters, is there a loop they are promoting that so far people are seeing (like you see with GR)? Maybe, but staying moot on a 160post thread on ascension winners and losers might not be the best strategy. Clearly this topic has attention. Maybe the announcement posts just need a quick paragraph explaining the acending changes by level?

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