How has Ascension affected the meta?

fight4thedream

I think we can all agree that Ascension has breathed new life into the game and opened new potential combos and teams. I am writing this off the cuff so I apologize in advanced if this comes out a jumbled mess.

I do think it's important to preface that there are still a lot of unknown factors considering the sheer amount of characters and that some characters seem to evolve when ascended (for example: ability cost reduction, production of more special tiles) .

Certain 1* characters have high PvP Value

Namely Juggernaut, Spider-man, Yelena and Iron Man. When boosted, they can take apart just about any of the current meta teams. What's more, since there are so few, a player can expect a 1* character to be boosted once a month.

Juggernaut seems to be the big powerhouse of the group but health pack heavy and Spidey packs a punch and is a ton of fun to use.

Good combos for pick-2 PvP
Juggernaut + 5* Colossus
Spider-man + 5* Colossus
Juggernaut + 5* Beta Ray Bill
Juggernaut + 5* Thor (Gladiator, half health)
Juggernaut + 5* Mighty Thor
Spider-man + 5 Mighty Thor
Spider-man + 5* Chasm

I think for PvE, with the right supports and team setup, they could also become competitive but as far as I am aware they haven't reached that point yet. But the potential is certainly there.

2* tier seems to be the least remarkable at the moment

This may simply be because not many people have actually managed to reach 5* Ascension yet but I am unaware of any of the 2* characters being particularly remarkable. Perhaps Ares might shine a bit since he is a high damage character but the rest of this tier group remains a question mark in my book.

Some 3* Characters when Ascended to 5* level out perform their 5* counterparts

I mentioned this issue in the Q&A January Answers discussion, but it does seem that at least some of the 3* characters are posed to hit harder and have more health than their 5* counterparts. I don't know how true that is for 3/5 set released by Broken Circle but it does seem to be an issue with older 3* characters.
Most notably, 3* Thanos smokes 5* Thanos by quite a bit.

It will be interesting going forward to see which 3* characters put their mark on the meta. In particular, I am interested to see how the new batch of 3* stack up against their 5* counterparts. If they outperform or match them, a player could in theory decide to forgo investing heavily in a 5* character and instead work on building the 3* version.

Obviously, there are the factors of resources and time to be considered. I don't see it being something a player can do for every 3/5 character release but with a good sized hoard it is something that can theoretically be done every now and then.

Some 4* characters do some crazy high damage when boosted at the 5* level

As noted in the Ascended Winners and Losers thread, quite a few 4* characters hit quite hard when ascended in the 5* tier. Agent Coulson, Dark Beast, Nico Minoru, Mantis, Ghost, just to name a few. With their tier restriction no longer keeping them at bay, I do believe we will see 4* characters continue to encroach on the highest tier of competitive play .

Which brings me to my final point of observation

The 5* tier has lost a lot of luster
This may be due the fact that I have been in the 5* tier for a long time and the tier has reached a point of equilibrium, that is to say that almost every viable team can be countered in one form or another. With 3* and 4* characters outperforming their 5* brethren after reaching the 5* tier, it does make me wonder what the game plan is for 5* characters.

I passed on a 5* Thanos lightning deal because I am preparing to replace him with his 3*. Yes, I assume in the long run that Ascension 2.0 will allow 5* characters to be ascended but unless that limit break is limited to 5* characters we will still run into the same numbers game issue that currently exists between normal 5* characters and ascended ones.

That is not to say that the 5* is irrelevant. Certain 5* characters like Emma Frost, Mighty Thor, Colossus, Omega Red, Okoye are still firmly embedded in the meta and PvE is still at the moment dominated by the 5* tier. It's just that the 5* tier is no longer the be-all and end-all of competitive play.

That is not necessarily a bad thing, players now have more options to consider and tools to compete with. But it has created a complicated feeling towards how I view 5* characters now. It has become difficult to determine their value and when it's clear they have been outclassed by an Ascended 5* character, it smarts a bit.

On the other hand, I am over the moon that there is a Spider-man that is actually competitively viable in the PvP meta. It is reassuring to know that if a future potential character I like is released at the 4* level, I can ascend them to the 5* level and hopefully be able to play with them in a most satisfying way. So overall my opinion of Ascension is positive.

The one thing that would be helpful is if we could get information on a character's Ascension stats. The Ascended Winners and Losers thread is really a boon and I appreciate that people are posting actively there. But I do think the information should be provided upon character release.

I am going to wrap it up here but I am curious how others view Ascension and their experiences since its implementation.

Tony_Foot

Yeah I'm completely not interested in the 5* tier now. I would rather have a four star only token and pump those numbers because some of the boosts are insane. We would be complaining they are game breaking but currently not enough people have them.

I like ascension but I think the numbers god boosted should have been matched more inline with the tier and think lot's of them need a rebalance. I fought a Blob with 390K health that could wave away 90% of damage. Out of curiosity I fought it and gave it about 8 max hits with my 540 shang to down it. That's absurd.

I'm just playing the waiting game now for more and more people to get some of these OTT 4* teams and listen to the complaints.

ThaRoadWarrior

It’s seriously changed my PVE clears to only have to use Polaris/rocket/juggernaut for all the mainline nodes; I’m not entirely sure it’s affected my PVP MMR that much. I do see 5* juggernaut 1* regularly, but he isn’t hard to beat usually.

Borstock

The top of Simulator I see is basically all Dr. Thor + Polaris + Chasm.

The only 1* that's been a problem has been Juggernaut when boosted because of the 600k health. It's a lot to cut through.

Scofie

I liked the ascension feature a lot at launch and I still think it's great for the longer-term player. But even after 10 years, I'm nowhere near getting my 4*s to the same level as the useful 5s (or my 3s to 4, let alone 5). I didn't buy the 1ascended5s and am sat on the fence about if I ever would for reasons I've mentioned previously.

I look forward to it in the future though, but for now the boosted 5s are still where it's at for me.

meadowsweet

It's pretty bad how much the 4-5★ tier has already been devalued, but it's going to get much worse over the next year or two as players manage to get their 1-2★ characters to Level 550.

The math just doesn't work:

• lower tier covers earned at an exponentially higher rate
• higher tier covers spread across far more characters
• same 4 covers per 1 level exchange rate for 5★, regardless of two facts above
• fewer lower tier characters means they'll be boosted far more often

I'm honestly not 100% positive whether the best three-character team of 4-5★ characters all at level 450 would defeat the worst three-character team of 1-2★ characters all boosted to level 650?

entrailbucket

I don't think we know yet, and I think that's pretty cool.

The way things worked before, modern 5* were all pretty strong, especially when boosted. Even the sorta iffy guys had enough health, match damage, and power damage to do something worthwhile when they got +100 levels.

Now here's the secret with ascension: every single ascended character, at 5*, is a 2024-level character in terms of power creep. They've all been balanced around the 2024 power level standard. This basically means that ascension is instantly injecting like 500 new endgame-viable 5* into the metagame.

It's chaos, and I love it.

dianetics

I think you are not reading the room. The 4* tier has the widest set of characters with the most dynamic powerset and will have answers for every 1, 2, and 3 available.

We already know that it does not matter how fat a character is, if you use a character with much better powers. The 4s have the best powersets of all tiers and its not even close.

Do you honestly think any 123 team could compete against Blob, R4G, and Polaris at 550? By the time those teams got the AP to start working Blob would be 1 shotting them all.

meadowsweet

@dianetics said:
I think you are not reading the room. The 4* tier has the widest set of characters with the most dynamic powerset and will have answers for every 1, 2, and 3 available.

We already know that it does not matter how fat a character is, if you use a character with much better powers. The 4s have the best powersets of all tiers and its not even close.

Do you honestly think any 123 team could compete against Blob, R4G, and Polaris at 550? By the time those teams got the AP to start working Blob would be 1 shotting them all.

Sure, in a "Balance of Power" PVP event where everyone is already Level 550, the 4★ have the most diverse powers. But how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

At the rate I've been earning 4★ covers and assuming they're randomly spread across characters, it'll take me 60 years to get new characters to Level 550 (assuming they do not add any new characters over those 60 years...)

entrailbucket

@meadowsweet said:

@dianetics said:
I think you are not reading the room. The 4* tier has the widest set of characters with the most dynamic powerset and will have answers for every 1, 2, and 3 available.

We already know that it does not matter how fat a character is, if you use a character with much better powers. The 4s have the best powersets of all tiers and its not even close.

Do you honestly think any 123 team could compete against Blob, R4G, and Polaris at 550? By the time those teams got the AP to start working Blob would be 1 shotting them all.

Sure, in a "Balance of Power" PVP event where everyone is already Level 550, the 4★ have the most diverse powers. But how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

At the rate I've been earning 4★ covers and assuming they're randomly spread across characters, it'll take me 60 years to get new characters to Level 550 (assuming they do not add any new characters over those 60 years...)

Why on earth would you want to level up only those three characters, or avoid collecting powers for anybody else? Everybody is good now!

Tony_Foot

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

entrailbucket

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

TheVulture

I am certainly pretty apathetic about 5s at the moment also, but I'm not sure if that is just because we have been on a run of disappointing 5s lately (by which I mean they are either rubbish or too complex to be bothered with) and I have been shard'ing my way through the backlog of 5s I never much cared about...
Certainly when you take away superior health & match damage it does expose that a lot of 5 characters have nothing to offer, so in comparison to cherry-picking the top tier(s) of 4s it isn't any contest.
My goal has always been to champ everyone, but now that ISO has other uses its tempting to just forget about the dregs of the 5 tier and just favorite Mighty Thor instead.

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

You have to pick one favourite though, I don't suppose even YOU let those bonus shards go to a random guy.

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

You have to pick one favourite though, I don't suppose even YOU let those bonus shards go to a random guy.

Hahahahaha, you underestimate me!

At 4*, currently I'm bonusing everyone who's not ascended yet. (I just finished Mr. Negative, and I've only got Moon Girl, Spiderman India, Multiple Man, and Angela left to go).

At 3* I'm bonusing whoever's closest to ascending.

dianetics

@meadowsweet said:
Sure, in a "Balance of Power" PVP event where everyone is already Level 550, the 4★ have the most diverse powers. But how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

At the rate I've been earning 4★ covers and assuming they're randomly spread across characters, it'll take me 60 years to get new characters to Level 550 (assuming they do not add any new characters over those 60 years...)

I think you are missing my point.
"We already know that it does not matter how fat a character is"
Synergy matters, and the 4s have it. I press you to find a group of characters that can compete with the ones I mentioned.
Blob, R4G, and Polaris.
We already know a 450 Blob is a monster, and R4G ascended is stupid.
I doubt any 1s or 2s will compete with them since Polaris will get her stun off before BW and Blob will eat Storms attack tiles.
The rest of the tier needs a ton of AP and by that time Blob will already be a monster.
We can walk through the entire tier of 4s, but the list is too long to realistically talk about .

It might be easier like this.
Which 1, 2, or 3 would be a meta in the 4* tier.

1* Juggs on a couple teams maybe. 2s? Nobody around. 3s Thanos, Arcade, and Punisher. The rest of the tier doesn't really punch up.

We know this is the case because the boosted 1s get crushed in the 450-500 pvp even when they are boosted. 1 Juggs is the only one that should give you pause.

entrailbucket

@dianetics I understand what you're saying (and also I don't think we were disagreeing on this anyway) but I think the problem is a combination of things -- most of us haven't used the 2*, 3* or 4* characters in forever (if at all), so we don't always remember everything they do, their numbers all scale up like crazy, and nobody has them at high levels yet.

The team you cite is definitely difficult to deal with, but someone like Mantis or Morbius or Prowler or (???, I think there's 3* special tile guys?) probably can deal with them easily.

The whole thing is just so chaotic and random right now. We all remember what the guys like Polaris and Blob do, plus some of the 1*, but, like, I don't remember what half the 3s and 4s do.

Borstock

I've also seen several Polarises around 510 already.> @entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

You have to pick one favourite though, I don't suppose even YOU let those bonus shards go to a random guy.

Hahahahaha, you underestimate me!

At 4*, currently I'm bonusing everyone who's not ascended yet. (I just finished Mr. Negative, and I've only got Moon Girl, Spiderman India, Multiple Man, and Angela left to go).

At 3* I'm bonusing whoever's closest to ascending.

You've already ascended all but four 4* characters? Jiminy Crickets.

entrailbucket

@Borstock said:
I've also seen several Polarises around 510 already.> @entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

You have to pick one favourite though, I don't suppose even YOU let those bonus shards go to a random guy.

Hahahahaha, you underestimate me!

At 4*, currently I'm bonusing everyone who's not ascended yet. (I just finished Mr. Negative, and I've only got Moon Girl, Spiderman India, Multiple Man, and Angela left to go).

At 3* I'm bonusing whoever's closest to ascending.

You've already ascended all but four 4* characters? Jiminy Crickets.

When you play at a relatively high level and spend a bit, and pour all your CP into classics for like 7 years or whatever, you get a ton of 4* covers.

It turns out that I've been preparing for ascension for about that long, I just didn't really know it.

Borstock

@entrailbucket said:

@Borstock said:
I've also seen several Polarises around 510 already.> @entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@meadowsweet said:

how do you collect the 1,878 covers (626 each) to get those three specific 4★ characters to Level 550 while avoiding covers for the other ~150 characters in their tier?

Favourites.

The same way I’m seeing people with almost a 550 four star already. I’ve seen some massive deathloks, rogues etc. They didn’t get those opening and hoping for a set cover. They did it by favs and bonus shards.

Right, and those people are screwing themselves over long-term, because Dethlok or whoever is ok unboosted, but they're missing out on, like, Mantis, or Prowler, or Cosmo, or some other guy that we all thought was junk that turns into a murderer with some levels on them and the weekly boost.

I just don't know how the devs can be more clear about this. The rotating boosts, ascended characters all having monster numbers -- they're trying all this stuff to create a metagame that rotates weekly, and people are still stuck on "who's the best guy? I'm only gonna level them up, and then use them for everything forever!!!"

You have to pick one favourite though, I don't suppose even YOU let those bonus shards go to a random guy.

Hahahahaha, you underestimate me!

At 4*, currently I'm bonusing everyone who's not ascended yet. (I just finished Mr. Negative, and I've only got Moon Girl, Spiderman India, Multiple Man, and Angela left to go).

At 3* I'm bonusing whoever's closest to ascending.

You've already ascended all but four 4* characters? Jiminy Crickets.

When you play at a relatively high level and spend a bit, and pour all your CP into classics for like 7 years or whatever, you get a ton of 4* covers.

It turns out that I've been preparing for ascension for about that long, I just didn't really know it.

That makes sense. I keep forgetting that I used to sell max-champs for the HP during anniversaries. If I had never done that, I would have a ton more ascended fours.

JoeHandle

@Borstock said:
The top of Simulator I see is basically all Dr. Thor + Polaris + Chasm.

Chasm, OR, Colossus handles these easily. Boring but repeatable.