No more kang

bluewolf

To be clear I’m not saying the superheroes won’t exist in movies.

I’m saying the current MCU storyline will either need to be rebooted or ignored or at least we’ll see more and more recasting.

Star Wars wasn’t hard to do a new continued trilogy as most of the story was just 3 movies.

I won’t spoil anything too much but they ARE already starting to reference 20 year old movies now.

so, more homework, I guess, further leaving behind general audiences and making them less appealing to someone who hasn’t seen every Marvel thing ever.

Zalasta

If Disney transitions to Doom, maybe God Emperor Doom will get the rework he so badly deserves.

DAZ0273

The MCU has simply fallen into the same trap that real comic books did - the Crossover Event. Now instead of Avengers 5 just being about an Avengers adventure it is going to have to be a multiverse crossing team up of silly proportions. Kang is already convoluted. Setting up Doom will be required to run through various other movies because they did that with Thanos. Too many movies have set up threads that have nowhere to go.

It is all overly complex when it could be really simple.

ThisisClemFandango

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
They absolutely expect this go on forever, just like Star Wars.

I think there are differences. Star Wars has had an overreaching story line all along and at some point the Skywalker bit of it was going to end. Whether Star Wars fans are excited enough about other new concepts to support another 9 film saga I have no idea. On the other hand there isn't really any reason why Spider-Man can't go on and on being reinvented for each new generation that comes along. As long as people don't tire of him then he is cash in the bank without an expiry date.

Bless you daz for making me laugh, the last 3 were written on the back of a cigarette packet.
"Shouldn't we write the outline of this trilogy, so we have a clear beginning, middle and end?"
"Na it's star wars, those nerds will lap up any old guff, make it up as you film it"

DrClever

It was more that they thought the nerds were not happy, panicked a bit and pulled a 180, then realised the angriest nerds were flupping livid, panicked a lot and pulled a 540.

Anyway MCU can carry on Kanging no probs if it wants to. Thanos was revealed slowly, after all, and any confusing stuff gets handled with someone saying the objective is clear, making the important things colourful, and letting the audience know when to clap and when to cry.

It'll be fine.

Then they can move on to whichever of Doom or Avengers v X-Men looks the most promising.

DAZ0273

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
They absolutely expect this go on forever, just like Star Wars.

I think there are differences. Star Wars has had an overreaching story line all along and at some point the Skywalker bit of it was going to end. Whether Star Wars fans are excited enough about other new concepts to support another 9 film saga I have no idea. On the other hand there isn't really any reason why Spider-Man can't go on and on being reinvented for each new generation that comes along. As long as people don't tire of him then he is cash in the bank without an expiry date.

Bless you daz for making me laugh, the last 3 were written on the back of a cigarette packet.
"Shouldn't we write the outline of this trilogy, so we have a clear beginning, middle and end?"
"Na it's star wars, those nerds will lap up any old guff, make it up as you film it"

I mean yeah…I’ve genuinely never seen anything like the final trilogy and the way each film seemed to want to undermine what had come before. BUT..it was an ending sort of? I am not a big enough Star Wars fan to know what any more films could be about. Maybe Rey could pick up where Luke left off and make a blue milk space dairy or something?

ThisisClemFandango

@DAZ0273 said:

@ThisisClemFandango said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:
They absolutely expect this go on forever, just like Star Wars.

I think there are differences. Star Wars has had an overreaching story line all along and at some point the Skywalker bit of it was going to end. Whether Star Wars fans are excited enough about other new concepts to support another 9 film saga I have no idea. On the other hand there isn't really any reason why Spider-Man can't go on and on being reinvented for each new generation that comes along. As long as people don't tire of him then he is cash in the bank without an expiry date.

Bless you daz for making me laugh, the last 3 were written on the back of a cigarette packet.
"Shouldn't we write the outline of this trilogy, so we have a clear beginning, middle and end?"
"Na it's star wars, those nerds will lap up any old guff, make it up as you film it"

I mean yeah…I’ve genuinely never seen anything like the final trilogy and the way each film seemed to want to undermine what had come before. BUT..it was an ending sort of? I am not a big enough Star Wars fan to know what any more films could be about. Maybe Rey could pick up where Luke left off and make a blue milk space dairy or something?

Her and broom boy and Rose unless she's still studying... .in a star wars film.
God they were awful

DAZ0273

Well they returned the Jedi but then ignored them when they made 7 which was really 4 again then proceeded to the last Jedi except he had given up the Jedi so they finished with 2 Siths. Or something? I don’t remember what happened to Stormtrooper guy. He was maybe a Jedi until he wasn’t? Something like that.

BriMan2222

Coming around full circle. What a call back!

DAZ0273

@DrClever said:
It was more that they thought the nerds were not happy, panicked a bit and pulled a 180, then realised the angriest nerds were flupping livid, panicked a lot and pulled a 540.

Anyway MCU can carry on Kanging no probs if it wants to. Thanos was revealed slowly, after all, and any confusing stuff gets handled with someone saying the objective is clear, making the important things colourful, and letting the audience know when to clap and when to cry.

It'll be fine.

Then they can move on to whichever of Doom or Avengers v X-Men looks the most promising.

Maybe they can reveal that Kang was Palpatine all along. Crossover!

DrClever

May the X-Force be with you.

dianetics

He will easily be moved on from. I doubt anyone actually cares except marvel hardcores.
He was partially in a Disney+ show and one of the lowest earning Marvel movies ever.
Like I have never seen him on film.

This is not a Thanos thing where he was hinted at for 3 years. He showed up in a steaming show and then in a movie that relatively few people watched.

I doubt anybody in the wider consumer arena actually cares at all.

meadowsweet

@DAZ0273 said:
I think there are differences. Star Wars has had an overreaching story line all along and at some point the Skywalker bit of it was going to end. On the other hand there isn't really any reason why Spider-Man can't go on and on being reinvented for each new generation that comes along.

At first, I just assumed you misspoke and meant "Overarching":

dominating or embracing all else: overarching goals, overarching ambition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overarching

But now I'm thinking "Overreach" might actually be more appropriate, even if it wasn't your original intent?:

to defeat (oneself) by seeking to do or gain too much
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overreach

As far as your broader point, there's no reason that Star Wars and the MCU can't both go on forever. I don't really believe in "superhero fatigue", I think it's just as simple as whether any individual movie / series is high-quality or not.

I liked Across the Spider-Verse, Andor, and The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special because I thought they told great stories in interesting ways. I thought The Marvels, Ahsoka, Secret Invasion, and The Rise of Skywalker were confusing, rushed, half-baked productions with bad plots, dialogue, and special effects that seemed to be getting made just to satisfy a content pipeline.

But both Star Wars and Marvel are endless fictional universes. You can literally tell any story you want. Do something bold and different with main characters. Take tangential characters and have them go off on their own adventures. Invent new characters. Marvel has 80+ years of characters, lore, and literal storyboards about limitless abilities in limitless multiverses. Star Wars has limitless species on limitless planets in a world with supernatural powers and unbelievable technological capabilities. A good storyteller should only be limited by their imagination (see: decades of comics, novels, video games, etc.)

Yes, back in the real world movies and series have to deal with studio executives, budgets, deadlines, etc. But Disney risks killing multiple golden geese if they're not willing to put quality above all else. Cutting corners and putting out mediocre content is destroying the brands that have been printing money for them. It can be scary to take big risks and let artists do their thing, but it's also the only way we end up with Nolan's "The Dark Knight", Reynolds' "Deadpool", Mangold's "Logan", Waititi's "Thor: Ragnarok", Lord & Miller's "Into the Spider-Verse", etc.

DAZ0273

@meadowsweet said:

@DAZ0273 said:
I think there are differences. Star Wars has had an overreaching story line all along and at some point the Skywalker bit of it was going to end. On the other hand there isn't really any reason why Spider-Man can't go on and on being reinvented for each new generation that comes along.

At first, I just assumed you misspoke and meant "Overarching":

dominating or embracing all else: overarching goals, overarching ambition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overarching

But now I'm thinking "Overreach" might actually be more appropriate, even if it wasn't your original intent?:

to defeat (oneself) by seeking to do or gain too much
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overreach

As far as your broader point, there's no reason that Star Wars and the MCU can't both go on forever. I don't really believe in "superhero fatigue", I think it's just as simple as whether any individual movie / series is high-quality or not.

I liked Across the Spider-Verse, Andor, and The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special because I thought they told great stories in interesting ways. I thought The Marvels, Ahsoka, Secret Invasion, and The Rise of Skywalker were confusing, rushed, half-baked productions with bad plots, dialogue, and special effects that seemed to be getting made just to satisfy a content pipeline.

But both Star Wars and Marvel are endless fictional universes. You can literally tell any story you want. Do something bold and different with main characters. Take tangential characters and have them go off on their own adventures. Invent new characters. Marvel has 80+ years of characters, lore, and literal storyboards about limitless abilities in limitless multiverses. Star Wars has limitless species on limitless planets in a world with supernatural powers and unbelievable technological capabilities. A good storyteller should only be limited by their imagination (see: decades of comics, novels, video games, etc.)

Yes, back in the real world movies and series have to deal with studio executives, budgets, deadlines, etc. But Disney risks killing multiple golden geese if they're not willing to put quality above all else. Cutting corners and putting out mediocre content is destroying the brands that have been printing money for them. It can be scary to take big risks and let artists do their thing, but it's also the only way we end up with Nolan's "The Dark Knight", Reynolds' "Deadpool", Mangold's "Logan", Waititi's "Thor: Ragnarok", Lord & Miller's "Into the Spider-Verse", etc.

I mean maybe? I honestly don't know enough about Star Wars to tell you that you are wrong and there isn't another 9 movie saga out there. All I saw was that Star Wars fans seemed to hate all or most of the new characters. Whether that was because those characters were bad or because they got screen time ahead of more beloved ones I don't know. I have enjoyed The Mandalorian but they still felt the need to shoehorn Luke in there. Maybe there is a great Ewok movie waiting to be made or the Further Adventures of that guy who looked after the monster thing in Return of the Jedi. I didn't watch the Jedi girl Disney + series so I dunno how well it was received but all of the Disney + stuff seems to be based on pre-existing Star Wars characters who somehow weren't quite good enough to make it into films ahead of Jar Jar Binks? Possibly that is me being mean, sorry! I don't even know what an Andor is.

Edit: For the record, I hated Deadpool (but liked Deadpool 2!) and couldn't even finish Dark Knight so maybe I am not the best to use those as examples to! The other three are great though!

Alfje17

They'll recast Kang: either Renslayer will be revealed as a variant or just start the next movie with the whole Kang council being blown up by Denzel Washington as the most ruthless variant!

And for those who think the MCU can't keep going after 20 years: Bond has been going since the 60s, so has Doctor Who. As long as a franchise will make money, it'll keep going (for better or for worse).
The real problem is the interconnectivity: fans love a massive team-up, but it does shut out more and more people who didn't "do the homework" of watching every movie and series

ThisisClemFandango

@Alfje17 said:
They'll recast Kang: either Renslayer will be revealed as a variant or just start the next movie with the whole Kang council being blown up by Denzel Washington as the most ruthless variant!

And for those who think the MCU can't keep going after 20 years: Bond has been going since the 60s, so has Doctor Who. As long as a franchise will make money, it'll keep going (for better or for worse).
The real problem is the interconnectivity: fans love a massive team-up, but it does shut out more and more people who didn't "do the homework" of watching every movie and series

DENZEL WASHINGTON AS ROBERT MCCALL AS KANG THE CONQUERER

meadowsweet

@DAZ0273 said:
All I saw was that Star Wars fans seemed to hate all or most of the new characters. Whether that was because those characters were bad or because they got screen time ahead of more beloved ones I don't know.

More popular / established characters:
1. Ahsoka: 86% critics, 69% audience on Rotten Tomatoes
2. Obi-Wan Kenobi: 82%, 62%
3. The Book of Boba Fett: 66%, 53%
4. Solo: A Star Wars Story 69%, 63%

B-list or new characters with nowhere near the fandom of those above:
2. Andor 96%, 86%
3. The Mandalorian 90%, 78%

The highest-rated series are the niche & new characters, not the long-running more beloved characters. It's not because the fan base was clamoring or excited for an Andor prequel after seeing him in Rogue One. It's because that series had a compelling, well-written narrative arc. Boba Fett, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka largely did not (they were okay, but probably not something I'll re-watch.)

But that just brings me back to my point: critics and audiences (and shareholders) would rather have an engaging story about a fringe character than a boring, predictable, confusing, or mediocre story about a beloved character. Nobody but comics sickos could probably name a Guardian of the Galaxy before their 2014 movie, they gave James Gunn creative control to do what he wanted, and now they're beloved household names, maybe have the strongest character / team trilogy within the MCU, and James Gunn was given the keys to run DC.

At the very least, just try to do something interesting. WandaVision and She-Hulk and Werewolf by Night were at least swinging for the fences in differentiating themselves and doing something unique, and that's more fun for me to watch than The Marvels, Ant-Man & Wasp: Quantumania, Thor: Love and Thunder, or Black Widow which just seemed like unpolished rough drafts of franchise cash-ins, trying and failing to re-create what had worked before.

Maybe there is a great Ewok movie waiting to be made

I'll let you be the judge of whether that's already happened...

Timemachinego

Caravan of Courage is a perfect movie and I'll hear no other opinions, thank you.

DAZ0273

@meadowsweet said:

@DAZ0273 said:
All I saw was that Star Wars fans seemed to hate all or most of the new characters. Whether that was because those characters were bad or because they got screen time ahead of more beloved ones I don't know.

More popular / established characters:
1. Ahsoka: 86% critics, 69% audience on Rotten Tomatoes
2. Obi-Wan Kenobi: 82%, 62%
3. The Book of Boba Fett: 66%, 53%
4. Solo: A Star Wars Story 69%, 63%

B-list or new characters with nowhere near the fandom of those above:
2. Andor 96%, 86%
3. The Mandalorian 90%, 78%

The highest-rated series are the niche & new characters, not the long-running more beloved characters. It's not because the fan base was clamoring or excited for an Andor prequel after seeing him in Rogue One. It's because that series had a compelling, well-written narrative arc. Boba Fett, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka largely did not (they were okay, but probably not something I'll re-watch.)

But that just brings me back to my point: critics and audiences (and shareholders) would rather have an engaging story about a fringe character than a boring, predictable, confusing, or mediocre story about a beloved character. Nobody but comics sickos could probably name a Guardian of the Galaxy before their 2014 movie, they gave James Gunn creative control to do what he wanted, and now they're beloved household names, maybe have the strongest character / team trilogy within the MCU, and James Gunn was given the keys to run DC.

At the very least, just try to do something interesting. WandaVision and She-Hulk and Werewolf by Night were at least swinging for the fences in differentiating themselves and doing something unique, and that's more fun for me to watch than The Marvels, Ant-Man & Wasp: Quantumania, Thor: Love and Thunder, or Black Widow which just seemed like unpolished rough drafts of franchise cash-ins, trying and failing to re-create what had worked before.

Maybe there is a great Ewok movie waiting to be made

I'll let you be the judge of whether that's already happened...

I was referring to the last trilogy films when I said about Star Wars fans hating the new characters.

Disney + is also a bit hard to judge because by and large you are preaching to a captive audience who are invested through fandom in the content.

Star Wars was a smash hit because it had wide appeal, it was a cultural phenomenon but whether it still has that wider appeal to a general audience without the saga of the Skywalker I am not so sure but I am not ruling it out. I just dunno where they go.

And good on The Ewoks!

bigjojo04

They could very easily recast Kang and keep it going. John Boyega would be the easy choice for the role or potentially Denzel, though I doubt Marvel would go that route even though I’d love to see it. I’d hate to see them completely ditch Kang after he was supposed to be the big bad for this entire phase but it surely wouldn’t be hard for them to pivot from that considering he hasn’t really affected truly too many things within their universe thus far.

Personally, I have always wanted them to do a Young Avengers movie first before Kang Dynasty where the Young Avengers form to save the Avengers and then lead into all of them then combatting Kang. That seems like a big stretch at this point but who even knows exactly what route they are thinking about going right now with all the murkiness that has been going on during this phase. It seems like they’re finally potentially setting up a Young Avengers team up, but it’s anyone’s guess as the when right now.

I still trust in Feige to right the ship, and I know so many people out there have all these issues with a bunch of their projects recently, but I’ve still enjoyed the vast majority of them, with Secret Invasion really being the only one that I didn’t like and haven’t rewatched at all yet.

If they do intend to make Doom the new big bad then maybe we’ll finally get an announcement on the Fantastic Four cast. I had hopes they were going to keep the release date considering Superman:Legacy was confirmed by Gunn to keep its release date which was two months after F4 was supposed to be release. But with that cast already fully announced and filled and nothing yet for F4 it’s making me think we’ll be hearing about that being pushed back here soon too unfortunately.