No ATV in Legacy with extra swap node

Techg

Hello team,

Can you kindly review this event and let us know if the extra swap has been removed? This was hard enough in standard let alone legacy with instant win combos on turn 1-2. If this event runs as is in legacy, you are going to have a lot of angry customers this weekend. You have been doing great on modifying the game and I would like to keep moral high if at all possible. I appreciate your attention to this matter.

Mainloop25

I personally would love to see if I'm up for the challenge

DREAMER

Fully support the first speaker. We can’t think only about Mainloop who got bored a little
We must not forget about a sensitive and a newbie part of the community. This event will be a blood bath.

BongoTheGrey

Running the event as Legacy will make it unfairly difficult for players with small Legacy collections. I'm also up for a challenge but I'm sure that a lot of players will just find it impossible when playing against full collection player's decks. This will only make mid collection player's move away from the game because there is no fun on watching Greg loop on turn 1. Newer players will be ok if they are not playing against collection complete Legacy decks. But the more complete players that have been grinding the game but haven't been able to advance their alegacy collections as much as they would like because the game makes it extremely hard, will be the ones that suffer the most.

ambrosio191

Every aspect of this game is being forced to only cater to new players. Once you get past that stage there is nothing left. Advancing your collection cant be the only source of enjoyment. Not everyone is a collector, people want to play with their cards, and we dont get opportunities to do that because of the "think of the new player" mentality.

If we are being real, new players are not their customers, they are potential customers. To say they are going to be angry customers is not accurate. Their customers are the established players who have already put tons of money into this game, and continue to do so out of habit and obligation to maintain their collection. If they get bored, you have a problem. There has to be something for them, without it being so pay to win that new players dont want to play. It's a lot easier getting money out of someone already willing to spend it, than to convince a new player to spend.

Mainloop25

@DREAMER said:
Fully support the first speaker. We can’t think only about Mainloop who got bored a little
We must not forget about a sensitive and a newbie part of the community. This event will be a blood bath.

Let's not start calling people out by name here... We can agree to disagree, I'm trying to be respectful of people whose opinions are different than how I feel

BongoTheGrey

@ambrosio191 said:
Every aspect of this game is being forced to only cater to new players. Once you get past that stage there is nothing left. Advancing your collection cant be the only source of enjoyment. Not everyone is a collector, people want to play with their cards, and we dont get opportunities to do that because of the "think of the new player" mentality.

If we are being real, new players are not their customers, they are potential customers. To say they are going to be angry customers is not accurate. Their customers are the established players who have already put tons of money into this game, and continue to do so out of habit and obligation to maintain their collection. If they get bored, you have a problem. There has to be something for them, without it being so pay to win that new players dont want to play. It's a lot easier getting money out of someone already willing to spend it, than to convince a new player to spend.

I agree. And the players that don't want to play this event and are taking breaks from the game are not the new players.

Like I mentioned, ATV is an easy event for new players beacuse they only play against new players with a small Legacy collection just like their own. It gets difficult for playera that have grind the game enough to be competitive in Standard but don't have a big Legacy collection because the game makes it impossible for them to obtain Legacy cards other that crafting them and there are a dumb amount of cards in the Legacy pool. Those are the ones that will play against collection complete players that run the broken Legacy stuff.

Blighted

Give me the toughest challenge you can! I want the extra swaps, the legacy, the hard secondaries. I want to use my full library.

Yes, it's tough. But it also stretches out the leaderboards.

But this needs balance. Not every event should be legacy. We do need a new coalition event for standard with some meaningful objectives to hit. (Remember snow nodes?)

Maybe the answer isn't just standard vs legacy, but perhaps rotating block format? You could get very creative in mixing and matching sets to play together.

BongoTheGrey

The only issue that I see about running Legacy PvP events are when those events are coalition events. Coalition events are the social aspect of the game where you get to compete with your teammates for a common goal. Since the game makes it so difficult to obtain Legacy cards it is making it difficult for some players to compete with your teammates for that common goal. Some might be able to do it and others won't.

Skoti Bloodline and The Colossal Tussle are perfect examples of Legacy PvP events that are challenging and nobody complains about because those that want the toughest challenge possible play it and those who don't because they feel disadvantaged due to their collection level simply don't play them.

What about keeping the coalition events Standard so everyone has a more even play field and running all the old Legacy PvP coalition events as individual PvP events?

Or making the Legacy card acquisition system more friendly so that everyone can target the broken Legacy cards and everyone has the chance to play the one turn mega kill combos and the bloodbath is even for everyone? That way Legacy coalition events are the same level of unfair for all players.

Janosik

I'm interested to see how this goes. Personally I thought there would be a bigger player outcry about the unfairness of Greg's extra swap when ATV was first introduced as a Standard event, but in the end I didn't see much evidence of that myself, either here on the forums or on Discord.

It goes without saying, of course, than an extra swap in Legacy is astronomically more dangerous than an extra swap in Standard, and will certainly result in Greg hitting the loop timer on turn 1 more often than in regular games.

@BongoTheGrey said:
Skoti Bloodline and The Colossal Tussle are perfect examples of Legacy PvP events that are challenging and nobody complains about because those that want the toughest challenge possible play it and those who don't because they feel disadvantaged due to their collection level simply don't play them.

Consider this +1 complaint about Skoti Bloodlines. I don't like TCT either, but then I never liked TCT... I didn't want to play it then and I don't want to play it now. But Skoti Bloodlines has transitioned from being a fun, playable event (albeit one with Oktagon's trademark stupid overcomplicated event supports in it), to a pointless Legacy event. Sure, I can just not play SB now (and I don't!) but when it transitioned into Legacy there was one less event I liked in MTGPQ.

Rotating events into Legacy is an awful, awful idea IMO, as they all become identical to each other, endless swamps of broken combo decks. More events should rotate from Standard format to Standard format (like Colors of Magic did, I really appreciated the change in format there!), or just keep the same old Standard sets legal when Standard rotates, or perhaps rotate into a block format.

Techg

To be fair, there are a handful of people who track events before they happen. Julie stopped this event from running last time after the take over. I was hoping we would have a reply if the event has indeed been changed or still running dual swaps on the one node.

I personally like the change up on events, but hoping the devs can modify some of the events to make them more enjoyable. There have been a lot of good changes so far and want to keep it going.

Most of the player base will not complain until they start playing the event and realize what it is.

totalsiege

@DREAMER said:
Fully support the first speaker. We can’t think only about Mainloop who got bored a little
We must not forget about a sensitive and a newbie part of the community. This event will be a blood bath.

That what the mastery tiers are for. dont fear the extra swap node it wont hurt you to bad.

totalsiege

@BongoTheGrey said:
The only issue that I see about running Legacy PvP events is when those events are coalition events. Coalition events are the social aspect of the game where you get to compete with your teammates for a common goal. Since the game makes it so difficult to obtain Legacy cards it is making it difficult for some players to compete with your teammates for that common goal. Some might be able to do it and others won't.

Skoti Bloodline and The Colossal Tussle are perfect examples of Legacy PvP events that are challenging and nobody complains about because those who want the toughest challenge possible play it and those who don't because they feel disadvantaged due to their collection level simply don't play them.

What about keeping the coalition events Standard so everyone has a more even playing field and running all the old Legacy PvP coalition events as individual PvP events?

Or making the Legacy card acquisition system more friendly so that everyone can target the broken Legacy cards and everyone has the chance to play the one-turn mega kill combos and the bloodbath is even for everyone? That way Legacy coalition events are at the same level of fair for all players.

So because of fairness could just make everyone use the same deck/pw regardless of collection. Then it would be super fair. Could just use playing cards. high card wins!

Mainloop25

Beyond cheating not allowed, I don't know why people think a competitive game is supposed to be fair. Not everyone is supposed to have an equal chance at winning. You've been playing longer? You have a bigger collection than newer players? Then you're supposed to have a better chance at winning; that's supposed to be your reward for sticking with this game.

Thésée

You guys talk about the challenge and I agree events are too easy. But wouldn't this even be much much much more interesting in Standard ?

The problem of Legacy is it's completely broken. It's been the tradition for a long time to say it was ok not to nerf cards since one day or another they would end in Legacy.
To quote one of my teammates : The bottom node is just a test in frustration tolerance

Don't run this event in Legacy

NickBKK

On top of the double swap shenanigans, Please Please Please do not bring back old recharging system to coalition events. Period. The inconvenient time constraint is making this game a burden and driving people away from the game again.

CluckALuck

I very much agree. Coalition events are my favorite part of the game and making them legacy, and making the charging system less flexible, makes me not really want to play them anymore.

Mainloop25

@NickBKK said:
On top of the double swap shenanigans, Please Please Please do not bring back old recharging system to coalition events. Period. The inconvenient time constraint is making this game a burden and driving people away from the game again.

I agree, that is more of a problem than one difficult node

souki12

As much as I would like to try this event in Legacy, I would prefer to see myself doing it in a non-coalition event.

The design was criticized already in Standard, and the design hasn't changed a single bit.

Drop the coalition aspect and it might be a fun challenge.

BongoTheGrey

I think that PvP coalition events should be Standard only. Players that want to challenge themselves on Legacy PvP can do it on non coalition events, that won't change their experience playing the event at all.

I don't think that everyone should have the same chance at winning on a competitive game. But I do think that everyone should have the same chance at competing on a competitive game. If you have a very limited Legacy collection and go against a one turn kill deck you don't really have a chance of competing.

And I'm not asking to stop scheduling Legacy PvP events. Just to do it on a non coalition environment. I love playing those one turn kill decks myself even if it doesn't feel like a challenge at all.

Firstofhisname419

That what the mastery tiers are for. dont fear the extra swap node it wont hurt you to bad.

Except there have never been any new mastery tiers added. I agree bronze/silver/gold shouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage. But there is waaaay too much variance in Platinum. It's not hard to get to Platinum in a few months. That's the same tier as a whale who's been playing for 5+ years. In theory mastery tiers should provide for some game balance, but in practice Platinum is just a free for all.