Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

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Comments

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:
    @BriMan2222 @Bad
    The reason MThor collects more AP than you is due to her cascades from destroying tiles every turn AND after every time she uses a power. The charged tiles can go for either team, but she always gets cascades, nearly every turn. No matter how smart I play to match the charged tiles and avoid setting them up, she always outpaces my AP by about 3 to 1. So I fire 1 power while they fire 3.

    I'm Sorry, but I've fought her probably hundreds of times by now. I've been hitting mthor teams almost exclusively all week, hit them excessively in sim, and hit them every time I saw them pre-chasm nerf. It can happen where things go side ways, but it's exceedingly rare in my experience.

    If you target her first and focus on matching the charged tiles you'll kill her before she ever gets the chance to fire a power. Her cascades have gotten me less often than onslaught and/or prof $ have taken me down.

    I can attest to getting hit all the time and I run Jane A LOT in Sim AND the character PvPs. I get a few defensive wins here and there, but not a lot. I don't know if I want to call her a glass canon, but I wouldn't call her a true scarecrow in any way.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @Borstock said:
    I run Jane A LOT in Sim AND the character PvPs ... I wouldn't call her a true scarecrow in any way.

    No, but she does rule out some teams, and if you got to late 4* level or above relying on countdowns or SAPs you might find her ubiquity somewhat disheartening.

    I'm not suggesting a direct nerf, but it would be good if more team types were usable against her (which I guess is a nerf of sorts but more acceptable, I'd hope).

    There may well be ascended 4* characters which make this happen - tile fortification looks likely to be the mechanic.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:
    @BriMan2222 @Bad
    The reason MThor collects more AP than you is due to her cascades from destroying tiles every turn AND after every time she uses a power. The charged tiles can go for either team, but she always gets cascades, nearly every turn. No matter how smart I play to match the charged tiles and avoid setting them up, she always outpaces my AP by about 3 to 1. So I fire 1 power while they fire 3.

    I'm Sorry, but I've fought her probably hundreds of times by now. I've been hitting mthor teams almost exclusively all week, hit them excessively in sim, and hit them every time I saw them pre-chasm nerf. It can happen where things go side ways, but it's exceedingly rare in my experience.

    If you target her first and focus on matching the charged tiles you'll kill her before she ever gets the chance to fire a power. Her cascades have gotten me less often than onslaught and/or prof $ have taken me down.

    I also fight MThor all day every day, but my experience is very different. I target her first, but she always fires off her active powers before I can down her. I try to mitigate the damage with Crystal and use either Shang or Omega for damage output. If I’m lucky I don’t need a health pack when it’s over, but many times I do.

    Let me put it this way, if I ever lose a PVP battle, 99% of the time it’s due to MThor. There are too many times where it felt unfair because I played it perfectly but still lost (or I barely win and need 2 health packs).

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    If you can't kill her FAST, she can get out of control quickly, and there's no real way to prevent it (right now). Once the AI starts chaining her powers you're dead, and it doesn't matter what you bring against her. I've had the AI kill 800,000 HP of my guys with her in a few turns.

    I solve this problem by killing her FAST. I think she's only got 150k HP at 550, which is a speed bump for a 650+ team. I typically boost match damage and can take her down with a couple match-4s or a small cascade.

    There are some excellent counters for her at the 4* tier (Alligator Loki and Cosmo). There isn't really a great 5* counter right now. As it stands she's basically a DPS check. If you can kill her before she casts a power, she's not a problem. If you don't have the DPS for it, you're gonna have a bad time.

  • dokiy
    dokiy Posts: 238 Tile Toppler

    Say No to Nerfs!

    You know who've I've been using to hit MThor/Shang teams? Chasam and Omega Red. If its pick 3 I go with Colossus. Get that first turn stun, get some major damage, let OR chip away for a few turns and MThor or SC is out of the way (depending on which I want to hit first). After that its mop up duty. I'm matching purple with Chasam anyway, or red with OR so SC doesn't get those colors, and even if he does, Chasam AP drain still slows everyone way down.

    Do I lose sometimes? Yeah sure. Bad boards will happen and cascades can hurt, but in no world does MThor need a nerf.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    Boosted 5s eat Jane for breakfast, lunch and dinner, twice.
    I've been feasting on Shang Jane teams with 475 Cap and Omega.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

    You could make the same argument about Wanda or electro vs hulkoye. Hulkoye can steam roll everything but gets shut down vs Wanda or electro. I don't think that's a sign that Wanda and electro are overpowered, it's a sign that you can't expect to easily win when you bring characters that are bad against Character X when you are fighting character X

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

    You could make the same argument about Wanda or electro vs hulkoye. Hulkoye can steam roll everything but gets shut down vs Wanda or electro. I don't think that's a sign that Wanda and electro are overpowered, it's a sign that you can't expect to easily win when you bring characters that are bad against Character X when you are fighting character X

    Who is Thor bad against?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards

    When Omega got released it was specifically pointed out that his weak spot was going to be Jane. Kitty would punish him too. So just sub him out against Jane. Doesn't seem rocket science. I hit Jane as fast as I can before she starts getting out of hand and it is normally fine.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

    You could make the same argument about Wanda or electro vs hulkoye. Hulkoye can steam roll everything but gets shut down vs Wanda or electro. I don't think that's a sign that Wanda and electro are overpowered, it's a sign that you can't expect to easily win when you bring characters that are bad against Character X when you are fighting character X

    Who is Thor bad against?

    I've made the case that collosus wrecks her pretty easily. I usually take her out in a few turns with match damage, especially if she makes some charged tiles in his strong colors.

    Dokiy has made a case for Chasm. I imagine once Cosmo is ascendable he may make an impact against her.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

    You could make the same argument about Wanda or electro vs hulkoye. Hulkoye can steam roll everything but gets shut down vs Wanda or electro. I don't think that's a sign that Wanda and electro are overpowered, it's a sign that you can't expect to easily win when you bring characters that are bad against Character X when you are fighting character X

    Who is Thor bad against?

    I've made the case that collosus wrecks her pretty easily. I usually take her out in a few turns with match damage, especially if she makes some charged tiles in his strong colors.

    Dokiay has made a case for Chasm.

    No, on offense, who is she bad against? If it's rock/paper/scissors, then there should be some team she can't beat.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @bbigler said:

    @Bad said:

    @bbigler said:

    This does not happen with any other team I fight. If I choose the right battles and the right characters to fight with and play smart, then 99% of the time I win and usually don’t need health packs. But MThor is the exception to that.

    You aren't choosing right characters at all. Cristal is practically for defense and omega is a bit slow too, plus both are relying in cds or sap tiles which Mthor will destroy. No wonder you are losing.
    Anyway, icelX said mthor is just behind kitty in losses. I just can't find the other comment where the % was revealed. https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/1019028/#Comment_1019028

    The reason I use Crystal & Omega is because they are PVP deterrents. I can float at a much higher point value with them than anyone else. If I use Crystal + Shang, then I’ll get as many retaliations as wins. I could use Valkyrie + Shang to beat ANY team, but they are cupcakes on defense. You should also keep in mind that my roster is new and I don’t have every meta 5-Star champed. So, I am choosing the right characters.

    Yeah, as others have already said, your crippling yourself by using characters that aren't good against her. You can't really say "Rock is OP because it always crushes my scissors" when you know that paper exists and choose not to use it.

    Well, in bbigler's defense...if the team he's using wins easily against everyone else except Thor, then that's not really a rock/paper/scissors problem. That's one overpowered character. Are there other defensive teams currently where certain strategies don't work?

    Similarly, what teams exist that Thor can't beat? If she wins against everything, but only certain teams can beat her, that's not really rock/paper/scissors either. If the metagame we want is "you need to have, and then choose, the correct characters to win each fight, and if you don't use them, you lose" we're a long way away from that now.

    You could make the same argument about Wanda or electro vs hulkoye. Hulkoye can steam roll everything but gets shut down vs Wanda or electro. I don't think that's a sign that Wanda and electro are overpowered, it's a sign that you can't expect to easily win when you bring characters that are bad against Character X when you are fighting character X

    Who is Thor bad against?

    I've made the case that collosus wrecks her pretty easily. I usually take her out in a few turns with match damage, especially if she makes some charged tiles in his strong colors.

    Dokiay has made a case for Chasm.

    No, on offense, who is she bad against? If it's rock/paper/scissors, then there should be some team she can't beat.

    I've gotten a decent amount of blues against mthor/shang teams that have attempted to retal my collosus. No team is gonna be 100 percent though. Hulkoye can beat wanda, it's just not easy.

  • WilliamK1983
    WilliamK1983 Posts: 978 Critical Contributor

    Is anybody taking PVE into consideration?

    Leave Jane alone.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WilliamK1983 said:
    Is anybody taking PVE into consideration?

    Leave Jane alone.

    She's... Not great in PVE.
    Not fast, at least.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Yes, I know Omega is not great against MThor, but Crystal is though. Even with Shang, MThor can still beat me with just a little luck. It doesn’t happen a lot, but if I lose, it’s usually against her. I’m only complaining because she appears out of balance with the power of all other characters. Plus, people with boosted 5-stars are still using her instead.

    Because my roster is new, I’m conserving HP by not buying many shields, hence floating with Omega. In general, I’m doing fine in PVP, but if I could nerf anyone, it would be her.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,965 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    It’s funny that if a character is too easy to beat on defense, the complaint is that you “can’t use them” because of retaliations (especially if you feel you should float unshielded). But if they are too good on defense then the complaints are that they are too suppressive (plus you get the “wall of x character).

    Thoress feels well balanced to me because she’s good but not the best at either. Offensively she’s not the fastest character and defensively she’s not the biggest scarecrow/ is easily beaten (at least to me). She’s really good in that her kit is self-synergistic but she can also partner as a battery for others (as long as they’ll don’t rely on specials) due to her cascades. I really think they knocked it out of the park with her and wish they made more characters like her instead of Peggy for example.

    I think people don’t like her because they don’t like RNG, and her cascades cause high variance, where players (and people in general) tend to prefer predictability. That’s really the struggle. There’s a chance that a bad cascade could lead to health packs, and people REALLY don’t like that. But man… is she fun on offense. I think that’s why a Jane gets the Fan Faves nod where a chasm never did. Despite being dominant he just wasn’t fun to play as or against. Jane is at least fun to play WITH (my subjective opinion of course).

  • skittledaddy
    skittledaddy Posts: 999 Critical Contributor
    edited October 2023

    Jane doesn't need to be nerfed. She is so tame that I don't even switch out from my PolGrocket team when I fight her in PVP. Sure, I'm not facing a 550 at my MMR, but if she can't even wipe out that team (which she theoretically counters very well), then surely plenty of other teams will have no problem at all.

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