***** Peggy Carter (Worthy) *****

KGB

@BlixTheFrog said:

@Bowgentle said:
Oh good I was worried about the lack of Dr. Strange in special stores.
Thank you for doing the right thing with the 4* --> 5* Peggy retro rewards.

Edit: Jane welcomes her new BFF.

BFF and worst enemy, so I’m not sure. Each turn, enemy MT strengthens her red passive.

Yeah when facing enemy MT I'd want Vulture as her partner. He can generate AP for her and take enemies airborne for her Red passive to do extra damage,

KGB

MoosePrime

I don't like this trend of abilities having a chance to do more stuff. Both Spider-Rex and Venomsaurus have it on their greens, and now Peggy's blue is also doing it.

Bad

It's amazing what they did with a character who was nothing. Now she is worthy but that could be expected.
The art is great in both versions. With the mjolnir changes her hair! Why? Does she need to conceal her identity?
Now her toolkit seems pretty interesting.
Playing her with Mthor they gain airborne, and 2 turns stun pretty easy to cast, plus more passive damage. Not a low feature.
Without Mthor she gains all her special tiles kit.
So what would be the choice?

Vhailorx

@MoosePrime said:
I don't like this trend of abilities having a chance to do more stuff. Both Spider-Rex and Venomsaurus have it on their greens, and now Peggy's blue is also doing it.

I agree in theory. Less predictable powers have always been a way for the devs to produce something that gets a lot of attention on paper, but doesn't actually perform well in matches. Reliability has always been king in MPQ (it's why passives dominate the game).

I'm not sure that argument is completely applicable to Peggy's blue, where it appears that the player can at least hit a threshold after which the stun becomes guaranteed. 12 is a pretty high threshold though. I wonder how often there are 12+ charged tiles on the board, even with fosthor.

GrimSkald

@Bad said:
It's amazing what they did with a character who was nothing. Now she is worthy but that could be expected.
The art is great in both versions. With the mjolnir changes her hair! Why? Does she need to conceal her identity?
Now her toolkit seems pretty interesting.
Playing her with Mthor they gain airborne, and 2 turns stun pretty easy to cast, plus more passive damage. Not a low feature.
Without Mthor she gains all her special tiles kit.
So what would be the choice?

I'm pretty sure the 5 star version is from a different era (i.e. when the original "Thor" movie was made, so relatively recent) so is just plain older.

entrailbucket

This is a lot of words.

She's another one where I don't have a great sense of what she'll actually do. Like I said with Miles, I'm ok trusting them on this sort of character, but it's going to take some play to figure them out.

Speaking of Miles, is he a combo partner for her? He does charged tile stuff too, and doesn't explode the board every turn like Thor does.

Zalasta

Colors overlap, but Riri has always been my go to for fast and cheap charge tile creation. Interesting character. I look forward to trying her out.

MoosePrime

@Vhailorx said:

@MoosePrime said:
I don't like this trend of abilities having a chance to do more stuff. Both Spider-Rex and Venomsaurus have it on their greens, and now Peggy's blue is also doing it.

I agree in theory. Less predictable powers have always been a way for the devs to produce something that gets a lot of attention on paper, but doesn't actually perform well in matches. Reliability has always been king in MPQ (it's why passives dominate the game).

I'm not sure that argument is completely applicable to Peggy's blue, where it appears that the player can at least hit a threshold after which the stun becomes guaranteed. 12 is a pretty high threshold though. I wonder how often there are 12+ charged tiles on the board, even with fosthor.

The most the ability can destroy is 8, at level 5, which translates to an 80% chance of the stun.

I suspect they use the chance of an effect as a way to get a bit more power out of the character, but I would prefer that when I use an ability, I can rely on what will happen.

bbigler

This is the current design of 5-Star characters. In order to make them powerful (but not OP), their powers are conditional or random. You are meant to figure out how to exploit those powers for max effect. Yes, it’s complicated and confusing; the lower tier characters are simpler by design.

The problem here is that it’s hard to judge how good or bad they are without playing them first. We can guess and theorize, which may be helpful, but ultimately it requires testing.

Here’s my impression of the last few releases:
VenomRex is better than anticipated
Omega is better than anticipated
Vulture is worse than anticipated

Vhailorx

@MoosePrime said:

@Vhailorx said:

@MoosePrime said:
I don't like this trend of abilities having a chance to do more stuff. Both Spider-Rex and Venomsaurus have it on their greens, and now Peggy's blue is also doing it.

I agree in theory. Less predictable powers have always been a way for the devs to produce something that gets a lot of attention on paper, but doesn't actually perform well in matches. Reliability has always been king in MPQ (it's why passives dominate the game).

I'm not sure that argument is completely applicable to Peggy's blue, where it appears that the player can at least hit a threshold after which the stun becomes guaranteed. 12 is a pretty high threshold though. I wonder how often there are 12+ charged tiles on the board, even with fosthor.

The most the ability can destroy is 8, at level 5, which translates to an 80% chance of the stun.

I suspect they use the chance of an effect as a way to get a bit more power out of the character, but I would prefer that when I use an ability, I can rely on what will happen.

I had missed that when reading her powers. In a higher leverage situation where speed matters or where extra turns could lead to a wipe an 80% chance of stun is just not great. And yes, they definitely do use chance as way to build flashy powers that have very high ceilings and seem incredibly powerful. But they just don't work out too well in the end. Either the power is worth using for it's base effects (in which case any probabilistic secondary effects are extraneous), or it's not (in which case you will never target AP for it and will barely ever fire it).

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:
This is the current design of 5-Star characters. In order to make them powerful (but not OP), their powers are conditional or random. You are meant to figure out how to exploit those powers for max effect. Yes, it’s complicated and confusing; the lower tier characters are simpler by design.

The problem here is that it’s hard to judge how good or bad they are without playing them first. We can guess and theorize, which may be helpful, but ultimately it requires testing.

Here’s my impression of the last few releases:
VenomRex is better than anticipated
Omega is better than anticipated
Vulture is worse than anticipated

I'm not sure we have enough evidence to say RNG based powers are a trend, YET. To some extent this is nothing new, though. There have always been high-risk powers.

Like what's the difference between a power that has a 40% chance of doing something on cast vs a power that places an unfortified 3-turn CD tile? (Set aside the obvious, 100% chance that your CD tile is getting blown up the next turn, of course).

The real problem here is the same one these powers have always had: they're generally just not worth the risk, when compared to other powers that aren't random. If I can cast a power with a 40% chance of doing 50k or a power with 100% chance of 45k, that's not really not a meaningful choice.

If they want to give us characters with high-risk/random powers, that's great! It makes the game more fun and I'm totally on board. But high-risk powers must be high-reward, otherwise they're just...bad powers.

Bad

We are talking about a power that costs just 5 AP in 5* land.
Of course it needs to be based on % and conditional to charged tiles.
Because no one wants to be stunlocked so easily.

Bowgentle

@Bad said:
We are talking about a power that costs just 5 AP in 5* land.
Of course it needs to be based on % and conditional to charged tiles.
Because no one wants to be stunlocked so easily.

Riri green says hi.

Jormagund

I'd also like some clarity o the feeder situation. If 4* Peggy will feed 5* Peggy as primary is she going to feed Cap (FA) as a secondary or has he been removed?

Thanks in advance to those in the know.

Bad

@Bowgentle said:
Riri green says hi.

Riri green is for 1 turn, not 2, and makes her unable to be there.

entrailbucket

@Bad said:

@Bowgentle said:
Riri green says hi.

Riri green is for 1 turn, not 2, and makes her unable to be there.

It's also supposed to be limited by her CD tile cooldown thing, which functionally has zero impact since everyone only uses her with Thor.

MoosePrime

It looks like Peggy's blue won't be spammable, it changes form on cast, so it will cost 5 for a stun (maybe), then 5 plus having enough charged tiles on the board to turn it back into The Storm, then 5 more for another stun (maybe).

entrailbucket

@Bad said:
We are talking about a power that costs just 5 AP in 5* land.
Of course it needs to be based on % and conditional to charged tiles.
Because no one wants to be stunlocked so easily.

...I didn't even catch that it was that cheap. Add another axis to our theoretical power-rating matrix: strong, cheap, and consistent. Cheap powers should either be weaker or less consistent than expensive ones.

As Bow pointed out, the problem there is Riri, who has a 4AP AoE stun with no downside (because Thor exists and is permanently welded to her).

Bad

There were many complaints when she was released.
My experience with them is that you can be stunlocked 1 of 5 times to the most.
It's just as rng based as PX and onslaught, although they were pretty dreaded too.
One single bad rng experience can make them feared forever.

Vhailorx

"The Storm" costs 10 ap in-game. If that persists then blue is pretty terrible and should be the dump skill.

10 ap to destroy up to 8 random tiles for up to ~13k damage is bad in current 5* land with or without the 2 turn stun.